- This topic has 34 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Over the last few years there has been virtually not a single yontof including this one where we haven’t read about a tragic fire caused by something in the kitchen. It could be the blech, a hot plate, carbon monoxide poisoning due to a buildup from a gas stove, even Shabbos candles.
It is frightening. I myself check our gas stove constantly and make sure there is no paper or flammable material anywhere near by on the countertop. I also leave open windows in the bedrooms no matter what the temperature is so there will be adequate ventilation while people sleep. Even so, I often am so worried I can’t sleep.
What can be done about this. Should the klal be told not to leave any fires on, and just eat cold food? Are there any heterim to set an oven on a Shabbos clock and put the food in before the meal so that A) The fire is only burning during meal times, not when people are sleeping, and B) an oven is less likely to present a danger of an exposed flame than a blech or stovetop where anything can touch it and catch fire.
Does anybody have any other ideas. The current situation is so dangerous with every family doing whatever they feel like with no guidance. There must be some community-wide education containing uniform procedures and safety awareness so that these tragedies can be prevented.
Remember that Chazal forbid things which were far more unlikely, if there was only a rare chance there could be a danger, such as sandal hamesumar. Fires and suffocation are unfortunately all too common.
What should be done here?
Pashuteh Yid, thank you and let’s include chanuka menora flames and flames used to search for chametz. As you stated, so much suffering and lives lost has occurred in recent years as a result of fire safety negligence.
As another poster was saying before Y”T, we should also abolish the building of succos. After all, even the ones that are not on fire escapes pose a threat to human life. Why, just this Y”T my succah collapsed in strong wind (and mine was only strong enough to withstand normal wind) and again collapsed as it was being dismantled (not by local union).
Additionally, the whole concept of YT should be abolished. Nowadays, we know how unhealthy it is to just sit around feasting day after day and spending the rest of the time sitting around in a shul. A more compliant YT would have to involve group exercize, not group prayers – and no red meat.
Everything has to be done with seichel. The way I prepare my blech is as follows:
First the flames are turned as low as possible, one upper right and the other lower left sides. Then I put a perforated 1/2 in thick “simmer ring” over each burner, whether it is on or off. These rings are perforated metal discs that essentially distribute the heat of the burner so as to turn any pot over it into a double boiler. I put my blech over that, with tinfoil covering it, and the pots go on top of that, or over an upside down pan.The simmer rings allow the burned off gases to escape from under the blech. In 33 years B”H and bli ayin hara, I have never had a fire or carbon monoxide detector go off. Putting a metal blech directly over the burners with nothing intervening, might cause the blech to be so close to the fire that it can cause a buildup of carbon monoxide underneath. My blech and the rings underneath are raised, so there is good ventilation.
I once had my carbon monoxide alarm go off on a Yom Tov. One of the firefighters who came (yes, I called 911 on Yom Tov for it!) told me that any time you leave a flame on, you need to leave a window open. Since then, I leave my kitchen window open, and I haven’t had any problems.
Just to note (for Yomim Tovim at least), if your oven has a pilot light (as opposed to an electric ignition), R’ Shachter holds that you can shut the oven or burner completely, because the flame isn’t being extinguished. It’s only being shrunk back down to the pilot. In such a case, for safety purposes, you should shut the burner whenever you’re not using it.
Cherrybim, I hope you don’t leave your chanukah candles alone. Nor do you leave the candle searchign for chametz alone.
About ten years ago a family in my neighborhood had their home burn to the ground because of a fire started by Chanukah candles; a small child accidentally tipped over the menorah and even though the mother was right there, she was only able to save the children and pets. Fortunately there was no loss of life but the house was totally destroyed. One can not be too careful with open flames!
With all real respect for the concerns and aitzas expressed above, I think the main thing that has to be checked is CHILDREN.
I think that if we (could) know what started a very large percentage of Shabbas/YomTov fires, we would find that unattended children are often responsible.
By unattended children I mean such things as (but not limited to…) kids running around during the Shabbas night meal (while the adults are shmussen at the table) and knocking into the still burning candles, or banging into, or putting flammable materials near or under the blech in the kitchen.
Also kids may get up earlier on Shabbas morning than parents, and go to the kitchen for food or to play BY THEMSELVES!
Parents MUST be more diligent in watching their kids to prevent tragedy, EVEN IF it means interrupting your adult table conversations, and/or getting up earlier in the morning.
Most homes in New York are built largely of wood (even if covered with brick) and sheetrock, and can, chalila, go up in flames really quickly.
Another very important issue…
Make sure to have WORKING smoke-detectors on every level of the house, AND a working fire-extinguisher on every level of the house.
If you don’t have your home equipped already with these items, get them NOW, BEFORE NEXT SHABBAS.
What’s wrong with putting your oven on a timer? I guess it probably depends on what kind of oven, but I never leave a flame on yom tov. Some even say that you can lower the flame (not sure if you can make it higher). I leave it on 350 and put the food in about 1/2hr.- 45 min before the meal. That way my kitchen is also not too hot!
What about when you are travelling and you have to lodge in a goyish hotel over the weekend and its forbidden to have lecht in the room, how do we wriggle our way out of that one?
Either we violate the hotel rules, or our obligation!
To: Aishes Chayil
Licht is not a problem. I believe most poskim hold that in such a case you can use electric “licht”.
As far as hot food for Shabbas, what I have done is bring a small electric plata (hot plate), turn it ON before Shabbas, and set in on a timer to go OFF after the Shabbas lunch food has been warmed. I believe it is assur to set it to go ON on Shabbas morning.
I also do NOT let the hotel chambermaid in the room on Shabbas.
squeak was making a point
his style in making it should not really be something to comment about
he didnt belittle anyones tragedy
Thank you for defending me, Mod. Let me add something.
I am somewhat torn on this issue. On the one hand, there are halachos that are based specifically on the point you are making. For example, the reason that we use a candle for bedikas chametz instead of an avuka (torch, which would provide more adequate light) is because using an avuka would create a sakana when checking inside small openings. Rather than risk someone setting fire to his home or not checking the small openings at all out of fear of doing so, the Chachomim told us to use a small flame.
On the other hand, some people are too quick to blame mitzvos for tragedies. There is clearly a balance between how much Chazal were willing to modify our practices to minimize potential harm and how much they expected our common sense to take over.
I agree that if people do not know enough about fire safety they should be educated. I agree that if a specific situation is beyond reasonable control of safety (e.g. kids that can get to a fire and there is no way to safeguard it from them, or a lack of proper equipment to cover an unattended flame) then perhaps an alternative that does not involve a hazard needs to be considered for that situation (e.g. no fire in that house).
But to say generally that the practice of leaving a flame on over YT should be ended? Come on. Education, Proper Equipment, and Common Sense are what is in order.
Unless the purpose is just to attack and aggravate shomrei mitzvos.
it has nothing to do with pc
has to do with people poskining serious shailos for themselves based on hints and heresay from an unknown person on an internet forum
Mod- I had forwarded the name of the Rav I spoke to who was a talmud muvak of Rav Moshe to the CR editors during the last dabate. While the Rav gave me permission to use his name, I didn’t want to do it in a public forum but if that is your requirement, I have no problem.
if you can give me a psak that Reb Moshe wrote in a sefer, please do, otherwise please consider this issue closed
“Just to note (for Yomim Tovim at least), if your oven has a pilot light (as opposed to an electric ignition), R’ Shachter holds that you can shut the oven or burner completely, because the flame isn’t being extinguished. It’s only being shrunk back down to the pilot. In such a case, for safety purposes, you should shut the burner whenever you’re not using it. “
Yes, I crack my windows open a bit, too, winter or summer.
“Just to note (for Yomim Tovim at least), if your oven has a pilot light (as opposed to an electric ignition), R’ Shachter holds that you can shut the oven or burner completely, because the flame isn’t being extinguished. It’s only being shrunk back down to the pilot. In such a case, for safety purposes, you should shut the burner whenever you’re not using it. “
When you ignite a stove from its pilot flame, there are two separate unconnected flames created. If R’ Shachter holds that you can shut the oven or burner completely, you are extinguishibg one of the flames totally. It seems to me that R’ Shachter may be using the s’vara that Rav Moshe used for his chidush.
Feif Un, in which sefer did you see R’ Shachter’s shita?
But this is not about chumros and kulos. Nor is it a situation where observing a mitzvah is a cause of sakana.
It is only bad practice that causes a sakana. Whether the bad practice is a result of ignorance or a one-time oversight, it makes no difference. The point is that instead of attributing the event to its cause you are attributing causality to the observance of YT.
In reference to the discussion about shuting off the burner or oven completely on yom tov- i think we had this discussion,in great detail ,last summer, in this ‘coffee room”- and it is not so “poshut” that it is not “mechabeh”. I can’t find the thread now but someone else may.
as far as the ‘godol’making kiddush and eating on yom kippur, thid story is said about r” Ysroel Salanter when there was some kind of epidemic that endangenred people if you did not eat.
Yet he didnt abolish fasting for all future Y”K’s.
<sigh>
Are you also against people driving cars? Crossing streets? Those are also dangerous activities (, period) that frequently result in preventable accidents. No matter what we do, and no matter how much safety we teach, it would be safer if people would not drive or cross streets.
Some even say that you can lower the flame (not sure if you can make it higher).
i think you should double check… your allowed to make a flame higher… making it lower is a prob…
Apropos this discussion, when I light my yartzeit licht, I always place it in a small disposable aluminum pan filled with water, and remove any objects above it that could potentially fall over it. I also have learned not to use the glass Y”L, because on two separate occasions, I had them explode, spraying the room with glass and sparks of fire, which thankfully caused no injury.
just this past shabbos (the one connected to sukkos) we were home for shabbos and 4 am we heard a siren going off. it was our carbon monoxide detector. bh we woke up from the alarm and chapped it was from the stove we left on in our tinsy kitchen. can’t say we will be doing that again…… bh were all ok
Everybody should take fire safety courses. I, as a fire safety instructor, leave on my oven on keep warm every Shabbos and Yom Tov. Never had a problem. There might be problems with leaving flames on (blech) or hot plates on. I think a fire under a blech is probably safe just for a Shabbos. I don’t know about hot plates even for a Shabbos. If you need hot food for Yom tov -use either a oven that is kept on or a crock pot.
rabbiofberlin-
This is the thread you were looking for, about shuting off a burner or oven completely on yom tov:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/melacha-sheinah-tzricha-lgufa
sorry-had to work today! in answer to pashute yid- actually i meant that it may very well be “mechabeh”- although-if i remember well- i took the opposite view last summer and argued that it is not mechabeh. the point of the argument was that to minimize light is directly is also “mechabeh”. i am pretty sure it was discussed at length and someone may find the thread.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.