December 27, 2010 6:04 pm at 6:04 pm #724326
No, it’s not just you, but welcome to the internet. This is how forums work.December 27, 2010 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #724327pashute zachMember
listen!!!!! if a boy goes to college so that he can support his family instead of his father-in-law and therefore preventing him from going into debt or having a a heart attack then go for it!!!!!! he’s doing it for the right reasons and such a bachur should not be put down!December 27, 2010 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #724328aries2756Participant
From all that was quoted from Rav Moshe z”tl he specifically said that men can make a parnasah….emphasizing the importance of men making a “parnasah” without the need for going to college. We see from this that he understood, appreciated and respected the obligation of MEN making a parnasah for their families. TMB quoted Reb Moshe himself. We should all learn from this Gadol that the responsibility and obligation of the Husband is to make a parnasah for the family!December 27, 2010 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #724329
but this topic is discussed with slight variations every single week over here. is it really impossible for people to remember what was said in those threads? i mean honestly…heres the conversation:
1) is it OK not to marry a kolel guy?
2) why not
3) but i wont look good in the eyes of X
4) dont marry for X marry for you
5) quote from rambam or other commentary
END OF DISCUSSION!
have i summed it up succinctly and correctly? can we stop going over the same subjects ad nauseum? perhaps the mods should sticky this thread and place a new rule in the guidelines: “if you plan on making a thread about kolel vs working/college, DONT! instead CLICK HERE!” with a link to the thread? just a suggestion…December 27, 2010 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #724330klachMember
roshei yeshivos tell guys all the time to go to college because it is right for them. So there obviously is a valid shitah to go to college for some guys, so no matter how many teshuvos etc there are that denounce it, HASHEM isn’t going to tell a guy [wo asked his Rosh Hayeshiva etc] achar 120 you blew it bec you went to college.December 27, 2010 9:21 pm at 9:21 pm #724331YW Moderator-80Member
speaking of ad nauseum i think we get your point bombmaniac. this same point about repetitious threads has been made MANY times before and you are committing the very crime you are accusing others of.
there are constantly new posters here who dont search through every thread to see if it has been discussed beforeDecember 27, 2010 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #724332
i suppose…it’s just really annoying for forum regulars like meDecember 28, 2010 4:20 am at 4:20 am #724333
“..this topic is discussed with slight variations every single week over here…’
The fact that this topic is discussed so often here may reflect the fact that so many are uneasy with some aspects of the kollel ideology. I know I am. Diehards will never listen to other opinions. I do wonder if these discussions here and at other forums have changed people’s positions on the learner/earner question.December 28, 2010 8:54 am at 8:54 am #724334
no…what we NEED is for some radical conservative to get into office, and cut every single social program in existence. that way you wont get arrogant kolel brat types who think that they are entitled to everything they want with no need to do anything themselves.
and perhaps your average bright eyed brainwashed seminary clone will realize that those who do not or can not sit in kolel are jewish as well.
dont get me wrong…i have no problem with kolel. simply the mentality. the mentality that can allow some 20 something year old shnook to demand that his and her parents pay for everything while he sits all day and possibly learns. (or sits around the coffee room and schmoozes)
if a guy wants to sit in kolel he has to realize that he has nothing coming to him and that if teh time comes where he needs more money, he is NOT to demand it from someone else, rather he MUST get a job.
the guys have to realize that teh burden of parnassah is on THEM and NOT on their parents. the girls have to realize that there werent always kollelim for every young idiot to go to. they have to realize that their own grandparents did not sit in kolel. that the majority of jews in europe did not go to beis medrash. that frum ehrlich people and work are not mutually exclusive.
so you’re right…but you’re preaching to the converted. the people on this forum obviously agree…its everyone else who ISNT here that youll have to convince.December 28, 2010 1:47 pm at 1:47 pm #724335Sam l AmMember
“reflect the fact that so many are uneasy with some aspects of the kollel ideology.”
Actually it reflects the fact that so many are uneasy with the college ideology. I once thought college was a given. Something you just did. Something that everyone needed or at least benefited from. I never even knew, or would have thought, that so many rabbonim were opposed to college. Once I became aware of this opposition to college by gedolei yisroel, I explored the issue further. After looking into it, I realized not only is college unnecessary, but counterproductive and actually hurtful to ones yiddishkeit. Thus I have forgone going to college, giving me more time to learn Torah. And advance myself in yiddishkeit. And b”H I can report not only have I experienced no loss as a result of this decision, I have gained so much. And I am gainfully employed in a position I am much more successful than anything I would have gained from a college degree.December 28, 2010 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #724336aries2756Participant
But then isn’t it ironic that when we need money to support the yeshivas and we make the dinners etc, who do we go to if not the College Graduates and in so many cases the most modern if not frei who are multi millionaires? And we honor them so we can pull in the big bucks for the year. Ironic isn’t the word I should use, maybe I should say hypocritical.
And of course when we need a doctor, lawyer accountant especially for a godol, Rosh Yeshiva, talmud chochom, etc. We look for a frum person who we know we can trust. We look for one of our own who went to college, got trained and is in the fields we need most at the time. Then we are proud of our boys who went to college and succeeded. It is the old partnership of Yissochar / Zevulan which we will always see come into play over and over again.
Hashem has a plan for everyone. Hashem has gifted everyone with different talents, different strengths and different weaknesses. We must each look for our own strengths and gifts that Hashem bestowed on us and follow the paths that Hashem has set for us individually. So do what is right for you and don’t worry what the neighbors think. They don’t give a hoot what you think of them.December 28, 2010 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #724337oomisParticipant
Bombmaniac, you were a tad adamant, but basically right on all counts.December 28, 2010 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #724338pascha bchochmaMember
I hope there are boys who have yiras shamayim, midos tovos, intelligent and sincere, who perhaps go to college and are willing to be responsible for the parnassa, so we can put bread on the table and take care of children. I hope to marry such a person.December 28, 2010 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #724339oomisParticipant
Sam I Am, you are very, very, VERY lucky that you are making a parnassah even without college. College, per se , is NOT in and of itself a guarantor of your future parnassah. But it IS the steppingstone to your future profession, MOST of which require a degree. If yours does not, great. I just wonder if you are gainfully employed either in a position that you got through nepotism (family business, etc.), or if you are in a dead end position which pays your bills for now, but from which you will not see marked advancement in the future. This is none of my business, so don’t answer me either way, but in any case, you are fortunate if you are not in need of higher education (which btw is good simply in order to be roundly-educated).December 28, 2010 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #724340Sam l AmMember
You are greatly mistaken oomis. Today’s world does NOT need a college degree to be successful in parnassa. Without even the slightest of doubt. This is even widely acknowledged by the non-Jews.December 28, 2010 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #724341
College is not necessarily an absolute, but post-secondary education of some sort generally is.
Usually, professions that require labor are more likely to not need college. Like plumbing, electricians, construction…
But, an accountant can’t practice in most places without having gone to college. I wouldn’t trust a doctor who wasn’t classically trained. Nor an engineer, lawyer, nurse, therapist (PT,OT,speech etc), psychologist etc, etc, etc.
Unless a person plans to live on tzedaka for the rest of their lives (including taking scholarships for their kids yeshiva educations), they need to earn a decent salary to get buy.
But no, its not an absolute need.December 28, 2010 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #724342mikehall12382Member
If my child asks, I’ll tell him he’s better of being an electrician or a plumber…college is great if you want to become a lawyer, CPA, or DR. Other than that you can do much better using your hands for a livingDecember 28, 2010 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #724343hockersMember
100 PERCENT ASSOR to attend any type of college. 20 years ago no frum jew went to college and there are other ways of making money without attending college. GIT R DONE. HATZLACHA (SPRINT)December 28, 2010 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #724344
My pilot on American Airlines — compensated about or over $200,000 a year — never went to college. (Plus he has over 200 lives in his hand every time he is flying.) This is just one of many examples.
Now that we’ve firmly established that college is unnecessary while lifelong Torah study is necessary and vital — and the MORE Torah study the better — much better — there isn’t anything else to discuss.December 28, 2010 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #724345
TMB, how many hours of training did he need? Did he get his training in the army (the way most pilots do)? Training to be a pilot is expensive and hard.
Unless you think more frum Jews should join the American army?December 28, 2010 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #724346
I said one of many examples. I’m not going to list all. I gave a good example.December 28, 2010 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #724347
TMB, this is from wikihow to become a commercial airline pilot:
The best way to find out how to become an airline pilot is to ask an airline pilot. Know that it is a very long process, and, to qualify as a new-hire pilot at a major US airline, you’ll have to have a 4-year college degree (minimum), and years of flying experience . The highest quality pilot training is military training, but the commitment for active duty is long (up to 10 years), the competition for positions is intense, and the program is very demanding. Also, your service may entail serving in combat. To go the civilian route, expect to spend 5-10 years garnering enough flying experience in order to qualify. You must have a perfectly clean police record and must produce proof of citizenship. It is not a job for anyone who is not serious, motivated, and willing to suffer through a lot of intense training. Remember that the training does not stop once hired at the airline; pilots are tested by government-controlled, company-provided evaluations on a yearly scheduled basis, and also on a no-notice basis.December 28, 2010 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #724348
So edit it.
Here are some other non-college jobs and median salaries:
Air Traffic Controller 117,240
Elevator Install 63,620
Construction Mgr 73,700
Railroad Conductors 55,530
Dental Hygienist 62,800
Transp Inspector 50,390
There’s a whole list, and I’m not copying it all.December 28, 2010 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #724349gavra_at_workParticipant
SJS: It is possible, but highly improbable, to make enough money without having a trade. Besides, staying in yeshiva exclusively saps your willingness to go work (at all) when it is required.
In addition, at some point you will have to learn whatever parnassah you want to do, and as we know, at that point the benefits of not working outweigh those of working, and the person ends up being a tzedaka case.December 28, 2010 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #724350
TMB, its possible without a 4 year degree if you have military training.
Its your example, not mine. Don’t get angry with me if you are wrong.
All those you listed require post-secondary education. Which is exactly what I said.December 28, 2010 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #724351
Post-secondary education is NOT a college education. It is simply a vocational training for the job in question. NO ONE here objected to that.December 28, 2010 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #724352emailsnotallowedParticipant
hockers are u kidding about it being 100 percent assur to attend college because i dont see y it should be assur tho some people prob think that way but its not assurDecember 28, 2010 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #724353lknollerMember
For your info Dental Hygienst requires at minumum an associates Degree and passing a license exam. It also requires practical experience which in most cases is available thru a college program
lknollerDecember 28, 2010 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #724354
TMB, who are you arguing with? I agreed college wasn’t necessary in certain fields but post secondary education is.December 28, 2010 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #724355TheReaderParticipant
“100 PERCENT ASSOR to attend any type of college.”
“20 years ago no frum jew went to college”
Is that so??
Well nearly ALL the bochrim in the Bais Hamerdrash I learned in over 20 years ago went to college at night….and I think we were/are all frum…December 28, 2010 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #724356
TheReader: not by the new and improved definition of “frum.”December 28, 2010 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #724357
A person can make a great living with or without college. An important factor is having a strong work ethic.
Living off your parents, in laws, Yeshiva, or wife is not having a work ethic. Neither is living off the government. The long term effects of this dependency on families may be very negative.December 29, 2010 7:14 am at 7:14 am #724360iyhbyuMember
I’d love to know how many people who are saying you don’t need to go to college to support a family, ARE actually supporting a family without having gone to college vs. some shnook who thinks money grows in his totty’s wallet. Yes it’s definitely possible (Bill Gates never went to college), but it’s quite unlikely with the cost of tuition, yomim tovim, etc.December 29, 2010 9:31 am at 9:31 am #724361kapustaParticipant
Im ain kemach ain torah just means that if you have no food, you cannot learn. If you are supported by your parents, in laws, Yeshiva, or wife, you are not in a situation where you have to steal, and you have fulfilled the Chazal.
I’m wondering why you think this is not stealing. If the parents/in laws will be forced to take on a second source of income, is that not stealing their time? If someone holds up a gun and asks for money, is that not considered stealing? The victim gave the money willingly…
That being said I am in no way opposed to Kollel or learning in general. But the way the Kollel system is today is set up for failure. What will happen when the next generation wants to marry Kollel? And how many girls wont want to “settle” and marry someone “not as frum” as their father? And if less and less people are working for a paycheck than how will any tzedakah organizations be able to continue doing what they are?
bombmaniac, agree completely.December 29, 2010 10:59 am at 10:59 am #724362yechezkel89Member
i sure hope you are joking otherwise i strongly pity you for your ignorance and foolish way of thinking.
it’s true people can make parnasa without going to college, however in order to go into solid professions a college degree or some sort of vocational training is invaluable
furthermore, many people don’t realize especially here in israel that one could still go to college and learn torahDecember 29, 2010 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #724363
Kapusta – Because its voluntary, with everyone benefiting from schar limud Torah that has no equal. The Torah haters have been yelling for over 50 years the Kollel system won’t work for the next generation. The Torah lovers keep learning while the haters keep repeating the same broken record for the better part of the century. The joke is on them.December 29, 2010 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #7243641818Participant
This is a quote from an article about those people that are going to have a hard time financially in 2011.
College is not a guaranty to financial success.But not having a college degree is frequently an indicator of tough times ahead.
“The undereducated. The value of education has never been clearer. The unemployment rate for people who never graduated high school is 15 percent–depression-level joblessness. For high-school grads with no college, unemployment is 10.4 percent, and for college grads it’s just 4.9 percent. Unskilled or low-skilled jobs in manufacturing, construction, and other fields will return slowly, if at all, since many of them can be outsourced to other countries where labor costs are lower. That makes education the single-biggest determinant of career success.”December 29, 2010 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #724365full_of_rageMember
TMB, How many FULL tuitions will you be able to pay on the salary’s listed below. Those are good salary’s if you have 1-2 children and are renting a two bedroom apartment and don’t have many children in Yeshiva.
A tuition break is a form of Tzedoko, so don’t think in terms of finding a job that will allow you to make enough to cover a Yeshiva’s minimum tuition.
Here are some other non-college jobs and median salaries:
Elevator Install 63,620
Construction Mgr 73,700
Railroad Conductors 55,530
Dental Hygienist 62,800
Transp Inspector 50,390December 29, 2010 2:25 pm at 2:25 pm #724366
“m ain kemach ain torah just means that if you have no food, you cannot learn. If you are supported by your parents, in laws, Yeshiva, or wife, you are not in a situation where you have to steal, and you have fulfilled the Chazal.”
Interesting that government welfare programs are not mentioned.
It saddens me that while public libraries and Lipa concerts are to be avoided as “dangerous;” the danger of able bodied, intelligent young men getting acclimated to welfare is ignored.December 29, 2010 2:31 pm at 2:31 pm #724367CedarhurstMember
rage, $73,000 for a job (and without college even) is not good enough for a Jew?December 29, 2010 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #724368
TMB: Torah haters? Really?! I am offended on behalf of the people who are treated as second class citizens by the learners who they support for no reason other than the fact that they are told that these people are learning Torah.December 29, 2010 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #724369
Cedarhurst, perhaps not if its only 1 working parent.
Lets say you live in Lakewood and have 5 kids. That’s approximately $25,000/year in tuition.
Lets say you have a mortgage of $1500/month = $18,000/year
Lets say groceries run you $750/month = $9,000/month
That’s already $52,000/year. You haven’t taken off taxes or maaser or paid your utility bill. You haven’t paid health insurance or car payments (if applicable) or auto insurance or phone bill….December 29, 2010 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #724370gavra_at_workParticipant
rage, $73,000 for a job (and without college even) is not good enough for a Jew?
Assuming you actually live in Cedarhurst, you already know that.December 29, 2010 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #724371WolfishMusingsParticipant
20 years ago no frum jew went to college
Considering the fact that twenty years ago I was in college, I can categorically state that this statement is false. Not only was I in college, there were many other frum Jews in college as well — including many from yeshivish backgrounds who learned by day and went to college at night.
The WolfDecember 29, 2010 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #724372CharlieSmallMember
Wolf, likewise I started college 20 years ago, maybe we were in the same class 🙂
Its so happens to be half my class in Brooklyn College was Frum (accounting major of course)December 29, 2010 6:13 pm at 6:13 pm #724373
Wolf:Don’t argue with historical revisionists. It isn’t worth it.December 29, 2010 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #724374
Trying my best: You have got to be kidding me. ATC employees not going to college?!? I think not. I couldn’t even begin to do what they do – and I have a college degree. The math involved is graduate level at a minimum. Come on, get with the program.December 29, 2010 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #724375
BTW, I don’t live in the Tri-State. I DO live in a city where the cost of living is MUCH less. I OWN a house and the mortgage is well under $1,500. I have three kids and a wife – we spend about 200 a week on groceries. About 800 – 900 bucks a month. I pay for a portion of my health insurance. I pay for a small portion of my vision and dental insurance. We have two cars – I pay a small fortune in car payment (one is paid off). I make over $100,000 a year – but am still struggling. And I do have a college degree. It’s not easy.
$73,000 a year would bankrupt me. Don’t give me any stupidity. Yes, you can work in McDonalds (or McDovids or Dougies, or whatever) for nothing without a degree – but the more degree, the more money you will get.December 29, 2010 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #724376
Oh, and I forgot – I have one kid in Pre-1A, and one in Kindergarten, and am paying over $12,000 for the year. And I do pay full tuition. So, again, don’t feed me any junk about $73,000. It would never work.December 29, 2010 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #724377
McDonald’s will not pay $73,000 for flipping burger. Maybe $7.30 an hour.
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