April 4, 2013 4:51 am at 4:51 am #608849
So basically, I feel that as a graduate of the bais yaakov system that there were many flaws in the system my list is here.
2. Mixed messages. On one hand I was brainwashed by my school that if I don’t go to seminary, I will be screwed, on the other hand the same people saying that told me I am not good enough for seminary, so they set me up for failure.
3 random rules
What do you thinkApril 4, 2013 4:54 am at 4:54 am #1014257
Also, there are for sure ways to improve the situation.April 4, 2013 4:55 am at 4:55 am #1014258Torah613TorahParticipant
I think it’s a perfect system, but the people who run the system are only human.
Brainwashing – It’s NOTHING compared to college.April 4, 2013 5:12 am at 5:12 am #1014259
People attempted to brain Wash me in seminary, I had a gut feeling I was allergic to sunflower seeds but kept on eating them so I wouldn’t be able to go to class and be brain washed.April 4, 2013 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #1014261yytzParticipant
What do sunflower seeds have to do with brainwashing?April 4, 2013 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1014262BronyParticipant
Dude, have you been to a real college? Or is your perception of them just part of your brainwashing?April 4, 2013 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #1014263HaLeiViParticipant
Please define brainwashing.
Doesn’t sound like you actually learned in Bais Yaakov. This is simply the battle cry of any anti-Bais Yaakov.April 4, 2013 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #1014264
Brainwashing – It’s NOTHING compared to college.
Which college did you go to that attempted brainwashing? What was your major? Islamic studies?April 4, 2013 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #1014265
I feel the word “brainwashing” simply means education, just an education with which somebody does not agree.
Very similar to lashon hara or motze shem ra. It will only be labelled as such if a listener feels strongly against that position.April 4, 2013 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1014266
If anyone believes something which I don’t, they were brainwashed.April 4, 2013 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #1014267
Doesn’t sound like you actually learned in Bais Yaakov. This is simply the battle cry of any anti-Bais Yaakov.
Suprisingly, I agree. A Bais Yaakov (such as BJJ in Israel, or (I would imagine) Bais Yaakov D’Rav Meir in Brooklyn) does not “brainwash”, as in subliminally and continuously direct/presume someone in the direction wanted with statements like “When you marry a Kollel Man…..”. That is left to the Sems.April 4, 2013 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1014268BaalHaboozeParticipant
So let’s make it clear? Did they, like, strap you in a metal chair and tape wires on to your head and pull the switch?
Brainwashing..Ha! Gotta love that word!
But seriously, though, what are you talking about? And please be specific?April 4, 2013 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #1014269zahavasdadParticipant
The only “brainwashing” that occurs in college is by those who never went and say how “evil” it is.April 4, 2013 4:07 pm at 4:07 pm #1014271nishtdayngesheftParticipant
1) How can they brainwash in college if they didn’t go? Your comment is ????? ?????.
2) For you to possibly infer that there is no brainwashing in college indicates that either you were totally brainwashed, you never went to college or you were already inclined to their kruma shitos already.
There is one other possibility, but it is not nice, so I will not mention it.April 4, 2013 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #1014272
Daas Yochid and the rest, what they mean is that some people in the BY system have distorted (not Torah-true) views. Usually, they are distorted in the right-wing direction. These distortions can be contradictory. And the talmidos are fed this stuff.April 4, 2013 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #1014273
mdd- Isn’t BY as a whole a distorted torah view in the first place? Before 1917 such a concept did not exist and even after it took a while for BY to be accepted by the “mainstream orthodox.”April 4, 2013 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1014274
Mdd, you’ve just illustrated my point.April 4, 2013 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #1014275
I did go to a bais Yaakov, and there were good things I learned there, and there were things that were bad, don’t get me wrong, I made amazing friends in school, I just never felt like I could completely connect to the movement, there are other bags Yaakov besides bjjApril 4, 2013 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #1014276popa_bar_abbaParticipant
If I was brainwashing someone, I would also make sure to brainwash them to think they weren’t brainwashed.April 4, 2013 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #1014277HealthParticipant
ZD -“The only “brainwashing” that occurs in college is by those who never went and say how “evil” it is.”
While I agree that there is plenty of brainwashing in certain Yeshivos and Seminaries – there is by far many colleges and universities that engage in brainwashing also.
They did a poll once and found that the percentage of young people in college were predominately Liberal minded, but the same people polled after they entered the workforce many had become Conservative. This is because the realities in America make living with Liberal ideals extremely hard. In a way it’s very similar to Communism -it sounds great for e/o, but in reality it’s only good for the ones on top. The American public in our generation are extremely foolish and have voted in an extremely liberal Gov.!April 4, 2013 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #1014278The Kanoi Next DoorMember
“what they mean is that some people in the BY system have distorted (not Torah-true) views. Usually, they are distorted in the right-wing direction.”
Aha. So, if a school endorses a right-wing hashkafa that you disagree with, they’re “brainwashing” people.
I find it interesting how teaching right-wing hashkafos is “brainwashing” people, while teaching left-leaning hashkafos is just being “open-minded”. If you want to argue that the Bais Yaakov/black hat hashkafa is “not Torah-true”, go right ahead; but don’t hide behind double-standards and false labels.April 4, 2013 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1014279
SF, actually “Pele Yoetz” was an advocate of women’s Torah education.The only possible real be’dieved is learning Chumash be’yiun.April 4, 2013 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #1014280ItcheSrulikMember
popa: You’re assuming everyone is competent.April 4, 2013 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1014281yytzParticipant
“Brainwashing” is a loaded term — it’s better to speak in terms of persuading people to adopt a highly specific worldview, and then evaluate that worldview to see if it’s problematic.
Some people criticize Bais Yaakov for giving their students the very strongly-held idea that marrying a full-time learner and being a kollel wife is the best thing in the world and if you don’t do that you’re a nobody, or at least on a much lower madreiga than you really should be. I don’t know if this is true — I don’t have personal experience with BY. But it does seem like a very limited and harmful worldview to impose on kids, since most will not live up to the standard, which itself is rather new in Jewish history.
If I were starting a high school, I would have the students learn a variety of frum hashkafic perspectives based on various classical and contemporary sources, so they don’t have an artifically narrow perspective, and can gravitate toward and further explore teachings that appeal to them personally.
In many cases, college (including the professors, course materials, and fellow students) really does persuade people to adopt very specific world views. In most colleges, especially liberal arts colleges but also larger universities, there is a very liberal, secular, anti-religious atmosphere. Deeply religious or conservative people tend to abandon their beliefs, and if they don’t, they are usually are too afraid to share them with anyone. It is much worse in the humanities and social sciences, compared to more technical or professional fields, but a few required electives in the liberal arts can be enough to transform a student’s worldview. I don’t think this is true at all colleges, and certainly not at places like YU or Touro, but it’s very widespread.April 4, 2013 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #1014282HaKatanParticipant
SecularFrummy – “distorted torah view”…
What do you posit that the BY system’s relative novelty has to do with its relationship to the Torah?
No, it is not a distortion of Torah. Girls need to be taught what a Bas Yisrael is and does, etc. and this is what BYs do.April 4, 2013 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #1014283HaKatanParticipant
As for the OP, sorry to hear about your experience.
I wouldn’t extrapolate this, though, to be reflective of the entire system world-wide.April 4, 2013 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #1014284zahavasdadParticipant
Most people who attend college are not doing it for some altrustic reason, they are not trying to help the poor in Harlem or Africa.
They are doing it because they think it will help them make money, Lots of it.April 4, 2013 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #1014285
but the same people polled after they entered the workforce many had become Conservative.
Of course! When they didn’t have money they wanted it from others, and now that they were making money they didn’t want to give it away!April 4, 2013 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1014286SaysMeMember
augh, i was brainwashed in bais yaakov!! They told me to dress b’tznius and with taste, and to be put together! They ingrained in me that tefilla is soo important and that it’s really for my benefit! They drilled into me to be machshiv Torah, to the point that I will never put down a gadol even! They even made me shy away from shmoozing with non-Jews and i ‘naturally’ have acted that way in college and work! They even heavily stressed the role a bas yisroel plays in her life, her future family, and klal yisroel, with the way she behaves, dresses, and her actions! (gasp!!)
yes, i’m kidding around. But brainwashing is an extreme word. And even if there are some teachers in some schools who DO push push push a full-time learning kollel lifestyle forever as the ultimate way of life, it’s by no means all teachers in all schools.April 4, 2013 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1014287popa_bar_abbaParticipant
popa: You’re assuming everyone is competent.
At brainwashing? I sure hope not.April 4, 2013 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1014288
It would be amazing if we first agree on what “brainwashing” means so that we can figure out whether it’s good or bad and whether it takes place or not.April 4, 2013 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1014289
popa just assumes that he is competent… he’s experienced. Personally I think brainwashing is convincing someone by using repetition or other such methods versus logic or trusted sources.April 4, 2013 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1014290HealthParticipant
ZD -“Health -“Most people who attend college are not doing it for some altrustic reason, they are not trying to help the poor in Harlem or Africa.”
Noone said they were. But lots of students are influenced by the left-wing agenda that some schools have. There are many students who are either against or don’t care about the Toeiva agenda, but after going to college they become Pro-Toeiva.April 4, 2013 7:31 pm at 7:31 pm #1014292
My definition of brain washing in this case is that, for me at least, and some of the secular teachers pointed it out at the school I went to, we would be told about how we HAVE to do ____________ and if we don’t do it in our future, it will cause harm to society, also, I usually have questions, and even though, I didn’t ask most of the questions I had in high school to my teachers, the ones I would ask, I would end up in a ton of trouble for them.
Personally, I think the fact that people say asking questions is bad needs to end and when it changes to “as Jews, we need to understand the religion we are practicing, ask away!”, then I won’t be as bothered by the bais yaakov movement. I still cover my legs and stuff like that, but its just that the system of chinuch is so mind boggling, and I am sure that might not be exactly the same for every school, however, take the girl in chicago that I mentioned in a different thread, she literally had no choice about which bais yaakov to go to, and she did not do well there, but was stuck there because of her hashkafa, when she graduated, she had a major identity crisis, and that has caused her a number of issues that she wants to sort out.
Unfortunately, I highly doubt she is the only one in the entire system that had that issue. On top of that, this can even happen in yeshivas, my cousin went to a black hat yeshiva for a year and he had similar issues to that girl, now he is doing fine, but only because he ended up not going to a Jewish college. Still shomer shabbos.
There needs to be someone who knows about all the schools in a community that can help people choose the right school for them so that they don’t have these issues. There is more to a school than the hashkafa.April 4, 2013 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1014293
Vogue, that was vague.April 4, 2013 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #1014294
mdd- So if you are doche that it is a bidi’eved, why would one be in favor of it l’chatchila?
HaKatan- I refer you back to the post I was responding to. If it isn’t some distortion of torah, why did it take time for it to be accepted by mainstream orthodoxy?April 4, 2013 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #1014295
SF, according to the conditions of our generations, it is a total necessity.April 4, 2013 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #1014296
I mean that we spend so much time in school that our schools have such a big influence on our lives, but sometimes schools do not take into consideration a student’s family situation, or background and may say something that the student will get stuck on, but is not right for the student to hear and then the student’s reaction will not be a good one and then things get chaotic because of something the school said in front of that student.April 4, 2013 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #1014298
Aha. That’s what you meant by brainwashing?April 4, 2013 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1014299
Vogue- generally when someone was brainwashed they end up agreeing with the person that brainwashed them. That doesn’t seem to be the case here.April 4, 2013 10:35 pm at 10:35 pm #1014300
yeah, i didn’t mean anything like what people in terrorist societies do. People in bais yaakovs aren’t terrorists.April 4, 2013 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1014301
So it seems that your complaint isn’t against the “system”, it’s against a few insensitive individuals.April 4, 2013 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1014302
It’s actually what cults do as well. Some people do call Bais Yaakov a cult.April 4, 2013 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #1014303
brainwashing someone into not believing in her self is really bad.April 5, 2013 12:22 am at 12:22 am #1014304
Is it just me, or is this topic annoyingly full of undefined words and getting worse?
Cults, “believing in yourself” brainwashing, chaos. It would be easier to understand what people are posting if they would say what they mean instead of using buzzwords.April 5, 2013 12:37 am at 12:37 am #1014305
Meaning having the belief they can succeed.April 5, 2013 12:45 am at 12:45 am #1014306
Having the belief they can succeed at what? Is this an objectively verifiable line of inquiry? If a 21 year old seminary graduate said that I can’t make it as a doctor, I wouldn’t mind the lack of faith, but if the 21 year old seminary graduates teaching in my bais yaakov all did, I might complain about the oppressive environment and stupid teachers.April 5, 2013 12:52 am at 12:52 am #1014307verapoi yerapeiParticipant
Seems to be a lot of negativity on this thread which is unfortunate that we don’t do a better job with chinuch that people don’t feel this way. Just wanted to share a thought from the Alter from Kelm. He says that the greatest part of our chinuch is that things become second nature and that the biggest pitfall of our chinuch is that everything is second natureApril 5, 2013 1:21 am at 1:21 am #1014308writersoulParticipant
Sorry, just some semantics on here- this is really not making sense. Not meant to be an attack on anyone’s beliefs, but still:
Everyone is saying that By and Jewish education is not brainwashing. It is giving over information. These same people are saying that college, by offering liberal courses, IS brainwashing. Again, by giving over information.
What’s the difference?
One could argue that liberal arts colleges teach this material in a convincing way with a peer pressure argument- this is the right way and people who don’t believe in this are intolerant and wrong. One could also argue that this is the way that BYs teach. We are right, this is why we say so and everyone else (including those LACs) is wrong.
Or perhaps it’s because one thing you agree with and one thing you disagree with.
This isn’t to say that I necessarily believe that the two belief systems are on equal footing, or even apples and apples. It’s just to say that perhaps we should rethink our definitions of brainwashing. One could argue that any method of conveying information which is received and adopted could be brainwashing.April 5, 2013 1:23 am at 1:23 am #1014309
So you think Bais Yaakov likes to cultivate low self esteem? That’s ludicrous.
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