Can golus end but the geulah still did not arrive?

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  • #1691633

    In 1948, when the medinah was first established, the Chazon Ish had already moved to Eretz Yisroel. He is quoted as having said that the establishment of the medinah this constitutes the end of the golus but we have not yet arrived at the geulah.

    Is that the current state of the world, like a ‘bein hashmoshos” (Twilight) ?

    #1691638

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No

    #1691659

    Joseph
    Participant

    That’s a false attribution to the Chazon Ish.

    #1691658

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    Meheiche teise yes or no daas yochid?

    #1691657

    DY, are you arguing with the Chazon Ish or saying a pshat in his words?

    #1691674

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Golus isn’t over.

    #1691669

    Mrs Joseph – “That’s a false attribution to the Chazon Ish.”

    The renown possek Rabbi Hershel Schechter shlitah quotes it in his divrei Torah on Torahweb dot org, titled: “True Redemption”.

    Frankly, I trust him more than you.

    #1691678

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The renown possek Rabbi Hershel Schechter shlitah quotes it in his divrei Torah on Torahweb dot org, titled: “True Redemption”.

    He doesn’t quote the Chazon Ish as saying golus is over.

    #1691679

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mr. Rebbetzin: You can trust Mickey Mouse if you want. But RHS isn’t a reliable source when it comes to him selling his Zionism.

    #1691694

    DY – “He doesn’t quote the Chazon Ish as saying golus is over.”

    How can you say that? It’s online!

    torahweb dot org slash torah slash 2019 slash parsha slash rsch_pekudei dot html

    Here is a cut n paste from this article:

    True Redemption
    Rav Hershel Schachter

    In 1948, when the medinah was first established, the Chazon Ish had already moved to Eretz Yisroel. He is quoted as having said that the establishment of the medinah this constitutes the end of the golus but we have not yet arrived at the geulah. Some thought that this statement was mere double-talk. I think the Chazon Ish was using the terminology of the Ramban in his introduction to Chumash Shemos.

    #1691689

    Mrs Joseph, If Rav Shachter is not reliable to you, you better stop eating OU products (and all the hechsherim that rely on OU by-products). He is their possek on inyonei kashrus! To me and for most American Jewry, that is as reliable as it gets. But to you, if he is unreliable and suspect – I express my deepest sympathies.

    #1691698

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    “The end of golus” doesn’t mean it’s over. It means it’s almost over.

    Earlier in the piece, he says the tragedy of golus is the lack of hashroas hashechinah, and doesn’t claim we have that.

    #1691702

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mr. Rebbetzin: You can trust any kosher keeping Jew for kashrus but not for psak, Torah interpretations, history or stories.

    #1691736

    DY, when you get to the conclusion of a book and it says “The End” – does it mean it’s almost at the end? Rav Schachter writes b’shem CHazon Ish: “[we are at] the end of the golus but we have not yet arrived at the geulah”, and you are saying “the end” means it isn’t the end, but almost the end…did you start with the purim spirits a bit early?

    #1691744

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t wait until the end to drink.

    #1691740

    Mrs Joseph “You can trust any kosher keeping Jew for kashrus”, that is how it all started, when Adom HaRishon trusted his wife on the kashrus of the fruit…
    “You can trust…but not for psak” – he is THE possek on inyonei kashrus for the OU – it is his PSAK that they use, so you are saying, you don’t trust his psakim, which means you don’t trust the hechsher of OU.
    Start living on water (if you rely on Rav Belskey’s psak that NYC water is ok).

    #1691756

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mr. Rebbetzin: There are many people you can trust as a mashgiach that are completely unreliable on hashkafic and halachic matters.

    Being a mashgiach isn’t all that much.

    #1691752

    DY “I don’t wait until the end to drink.”, so when you are at the end of the bottle, there is still 1/4 of a bottle left.

    #1691761

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, but according to you, it’s finished.

    #1691840

    manitou
    Participant

    I don’t know if the Chazon Ish said that but it makes sense since it goes along with the rambam that paskens like Shmuel that אין בין … אלא שיעבוד מלכויות.
    Also according to the Gemara in berachos we are living in yemos hamashiach.
    גמ׳ תניא אמר להם בן זומא לחכמים וכי מזכירין יציאת מצרים לימות המשיח והלא כבר נאמר הנה ימים באים נאם ה׳ ולא יאמרו עוד חי ה׳ אשר העלה את בני ישראל מארץ מצרים כי אם חי ה׳ אשר העלה ואשר הביא את זרע בית ישראל מארץ צפונה ומכל הארצות אשר הדחתים שם
    In short, kibutz galuyos is the same as yemos hamashiach.

    #1691849

    avreichamshlomo
    Participant

    Joseph, even am haratzim who hate satmar, can have kavod for the satmar rebbe, even if they disagree with him.
    1. Why can’t you have kavod for a Talmid Chacham, regardless?
    2. He does not seem like the kind of person who pushes tzionis. He pushes for keeping and following the Torah. Even my rebbe, who strongly dislikes YU, has a great kavod for Rav Shechter, who is a Talmid Chacham! We honor the Torah Shebo, not the person.

    #1691798

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    Once were on this topic
    Can someone please explain, according to the rambam who says that when moshiach comes: עולם כמנהגו נוהג, and there wont be any changes in the world, isnt תחיית המתים a major change how can the rambam say there wont be any changes?

    #1691783

    I expected to hear from the Chabad “experts” on geula and moshiach…guess they are too busy doing what they do best – kiruv and taking care of our Jewish needs in far off places.

    #1691861

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Lechaim,
    Good question.
    Your Rambam has already been explained to mean the first part of the geulah starting with Moshiach’s arrival, up to a certain point. His opinion is that there won’t be major world changes during that particular phase, it’s like Shmuel’s opinion on the gemarah. Even Shmuel , with whose opinion the Rambam apparently agrees, is only talking about the very initial geulah. Many discuss this.

    #1691874

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Rebbetzin,
    Save your breath.
    When Moshiach shows up on Rechov Yaffo inviting the kibbutz in Ivrit wearing a kippa sruga, the galus lovers will call him a Zionist. Talk about a good kugel recipe instead- one without so much salt.

    #1691881

    Joseph
    Participant

    avreichem: There was no disrespect. And he does push Zionism.

    #1691897

    For someone to say, “That’s a false attribution to the Chazon Ish.” he needs to believe he knows every single thing the Chazon Ish ever said. Only then can one say these words were never said by the Chazon Ish and the one who claims they were said, is mistaken or making it up. (In halachic terms it is called לא ראינו אינה ראייה ). A big claim, but like a balloon, filled with hot air.

    #1691900

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    @lechaim,

    I was actually wondering about תחית המתים today

    If if someone dies at 90 but his father died in a car accident at 40 when תחית המתים happens will he be older than his father?

    #1691943

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    can techiyas hameisim happen in the first period?

    @coffe I heard a similar question regarding a widow that remarries, which husband does she go back to?
    I think it’s a machlokes between the author of Rav Pe’alim and someone else.
    I’ll try finding the makor

    #1691979

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Lechaim,
    It can. Take a look in Meseches Sanhedrin along with meforshim where this issue is discussed. Some say Techiyas will be earlier than others… We just don’t know till tat era is upon us…. Hopefully soon Bimheirah Beyameinu…

    #1691997

    Avi K
    Participant

    The Yerushalmi (Berachot 1:1) says that the Geula comes slowly in stages. this there is a continuum of galut and geula. Rashi says that a sign of geula is EY bringing forth its fruits in abundance. BTW, according to the Zohar each 1,000 years of creation is against one day of the week. According to that 5708 was the soft reman blur chametz. There is no greater chamez than the Galut.

    #1692009

    Joseph
    Participant

    And Israel is in galus.

    #1692081

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    @zion
    Thanks
    I meant accounting to the rambam that we say is talking about two time frames – an earlier one which won’t have changes in this world, and the later one which will have.
    According to that can techiyas hameisim still happen in the first period?

    #1692163

    Rav Shachter and Rav Belsky until his petira are the poskim for OU kashrus. They are not “mashgichim” but decide halacha policy and shailos. These are giants of Torah and halacha – not just in kashrus but many areas of Halacha, and their yedias HaTorah is far beyond the well-known roshei yeshivos and accepted rabbonim in America and Israel. That is why they are the poskim for the OU – an internationally recognized kashrus authority. To belittle such a godol b’Torah requires a ma’chah! Wez wouldn’t tolerate if someone belittled the possek of the EIda HaCharaidis or other accepted poskim of our generation. If you disagree with his shitos about Israel, just as you might disagree with Rav Cook and other gedolim of past generations, you still must be respectful.

    #1692185

    RavDovidHOCKERZ
    Participant

    galus isnt over this whole conversation is pashtus

    #1692192

    briskboyz
    Participant

    duh

    #1692196

    Joseph
    Participant

    Mr. Rebbetzin, I don’t disagree that everyone must be respectful when discussing these rabbis, even if they had very different viewpoints than most rabbonim. And no one was. But that being said, it is respectful to point out that paskening dinei nefoshos shailos is different than paskening kashrus shailos. Not every posek who can pasken on kashrus can pasken on dinei nefoshos. One might be able to pasken this chicken is kosher or using such and such ingredients is kosher but cannot pasken take Reuven off the respirator and r”l let him be niftar. That’s a generic point I’m making not specific to any particular rabbis.

    That point being made, I’ll also point out that most or all of the rabbonim on Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah, to take an example of a group of rabbonim, are bigger talmidei chachomim than the ones you’ve cited.

    And to state the obvious, Rabbi Schachter, while certainly a big talmid chochom, is very much an outlier whose many positions are very much not accepted in normative/traditional Orthodoxy. Indeed, the Orthodox Union itself, while very fine for kashrus matters (generally), is officially a Modern Orthodox organization that takes many positions anathema to the Gedolei Yisroel of today and yesteryear.

    #1692224

    Rav D Hocher – the Chazon Ish is quoted as saying in 1948 that golus is over but the geulah has not come yet. Are you arguingÉ

    #1692237

    The Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah membership is political. Rav Pam wasn’t political so he was kept off the list. Old boys club.

    #1692280

    Joseph
    Participant

    The attribution to the Chazon Ish is false.

    #1692277

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Pam was a member of the Moetzes. And my point was just an example. Of course the Moetzes aren’t the only Gedolim. But coincidentally the members of the Moetzes were all greater rabbonim and talmidei chachomim than the rabbis you mentioned.

    #1692362

    ZionGate
    Participant

    Anyusername,
    Well, apparently not, but the question is how long this initial phase will last. The Rambam supports Shmuel’s opinion, but that isn’t the final word. Nobody has the answer. Even the opinion that the world will be destroyed for a period of time is a machlokes. And if yes, the question is for how long, or does it even mean literally.

    Avi K…..That Rashi is actually ad loc in Sanhedrin and the gemarrah itself says so…. That the abundant fruits is yet the greatest sign of geula… EY has for thousands of years yielded norhing to any occupier or invader in abundance. Mark Twain described how desolate and forlorn EY is when he visited there 120 years ago. The signs of geula are here .. But only believers see it. The naysers have their heads and shitot in the sand.. Too bad.

    #1692499

    Moshiach Now770
    Participant

    No we will go from gulus straight to geulah with separation in between

    #1692503

    Moshiach Now770
    Participant

    No we will go from gulus straight to geulah with no separation in between

    #1692509

    Moshiach Now770
    Participant

    No we will go from gulus straight to geulah with NO separation in between meaning that when gulus ends geulah will come right away

    #1692903

    Avi K
    Participant

    MN,
    1. Posting three times does not change anything.
    2. We cannot have anything now. Everything comes gradually with work. Eisav lost his birthright because he wanted lentil soup now.

    #1692960

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    @avik. 1. 🙂 read all 3 times again.

    2. isnt golus long enough that we can get it now?
    Dont we ask for moshiach every day?

    #1692986

    Now770, do you have a source that the instant golus ends, moshiach arrives? Between day and night there is twilight ‘bein hashmoshos”, a time of transition. When the yidden went out of mitzrayim, were out, yet the first 7 days they were not totally free of mitzrayim, they were chased, this lasted till kriyas yam suf – it was a transition period. If you say something, do you have a source or is it just how you feel today?!

    #1693015

    Anyusernameopen?
    Participant

    @rebitzin it definitely can happen, based on the gemora in sanhedrin 98a where it speaks abt this
    Depending on זכו or לא זכו

    We should assume that we are זכו , no? So moshiach can come immediately.

    #1693180

    @rebitzin it definitely can happen, based on the gemora in sanhedrin 98a where it speaks abt this
    Why are you teaching gemara to a rebetzin

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