can i date a girl without Shadchan????????/

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  • #599070

    MichaelC
    Member

    It says in Kiddushin a person must have a Shadchan (a 3rd party) before you can date a girl (with intention to marry).

    What do the Poskim say on this????

    Can I find a Shidduch on a Chat room (no Shadchan involved like J date or Frumster)?

    Can I ask a girl to go on a date with me in a bar, or a shop?

    Or!

    Do I have to get a Shadchan to make the introduction

    #808617

    the shadchan can be your friend, her friend, a brother, a stranger, a second cousin once removed, etc.

    #808618

    mytake
    Member

    Ask your Posek. And while you’re at it, find out what he thinks about Jdate and Frumster. And the bar.

    Good Luck!

    #808619

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Ummm, I may be ignorant. But I have learned Maseches Kiddushin. More than once. Can you please enlighten me as to where it says such a thing?

    #808620

    be good
    Participant

    I never knew that it says that you have to have a shadchan- interesting- can anyone explain why that is?

    Mytake: Great post LOL 😉

    #808621

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Midwesterner, it’s a translation problem. I’m sure you know what he’s referring to.

    #808622

    MichaelC
    Member

    It says in the first Perek of Kiddushin, Rav (or Rav Nachman) would whip(or excommunicate) someone who betrothed a woman without a ‘Shadchan’ (b’lo shidduchei).I think it was a Gezeira (enacted in later times by the Amoroim).

    In the times of the Taanim it mentions (at the end of Talmud Taanis), men would betroth girls without Shadchanim (the girls would dance on Tub be’Av and say to the men ‘choose one of us from among us’).

    In addition- I assume from the first Mishna in Kiddushin (written in the times of the Taanaim) that a person can betroth a woman without a Shadchan.

    These are my understanding of these 3 Gemaras, can someone correct me please (i am sure there are Rishonim who disagree with Rashi and/or Artscroll).

    #808623

    MiddlePath
    Participant

    I’ve also learned Kiddushin, and I don’t remember it anywhere saying that. Can you tell me where it says that?

    And I’ve dated girls without a 3rd party involved, and I actually am more comfortable that way.

    #808625

    Perhaps the RBSO could be the shadchan

    #808626

    insuranceguy
    Member

    are you asking a question?

    #808627

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    See, I originally thought the OP knew there was no such gemara, and was trying to “make a point” that he think you don’t need a shadchan.

    But when he provided his “source”, now I have no idea what he is doing.

    #808628

    Chein
    Member

    popa: He asked to stand corrected if incorrect. Why not take the initiative?

    #808629

    cherrybim
    Participant

    “someone who betrothed a woman without a ‘Shadchan’ (b’lo shidduchei).”

    #808630

    Obaminator
    Member

    The tannaim always comes before a marriage.

    #808632

    Sam2
    Participant

    The Gemara in Kiddushin does not mean a Shadchan. You stand corrected.

    #808633

    Obaminator
    Member

    Sam: What is the Gemorah saying?

    #808634

    MichaelC
    Member

    A Bas Kol comes before a person’s birth that says Bas Ploni for Ben Ploni(Talmud Niddah).

    Rabbi Chazzan said on this (quoting some Rabbi) that this Bas Kol is said through a Shadchan. Rabbi Chazzan is a Chassid, he may have quoted a Mesora that went back further then the Talmud, that a person must get married with a Shadchan.

    #808635

    i dont think Chassidim have a Mesorah going back before the Talmud

    #808636

    Queen Bee
    Member

    I think I would be more comfortable without a shadchan because I have issues with the whole system, but on the other hand, it feels safer when a third party is involved. I didn’t know there was a source for this, so good to know.

    #808637

    MichaelC
    Member

    Biblical matchmaking

    The first recorded shidduch in the Torah was the match that Eliezer, the servant of the Jewish patriarch Abraham, made for his master’s son Isaac (Genesis Ch. 24). Abraham gave him specific instructions to choose a woman from Abraham’s own tribe. Eliezer traveled to his master’s homeland to fulfill Abraham’s wishes, arriving at a well. After a short prayer to God for guidance, describing how a virtuous woman might act toward a traveling stranger at the well, Rebekah appeared on the scene and did everything described in Eliezer’s prayer. Eliezer then went with Rebekah to her family and appealed them for permission to take Rebekah back with him to be Isaac’s wife. Once this permission was granted, Rebekah joined Eliezer on the road home to Isaac. Even so, Isaac gained his own impression of her before agreeing to marry her (Rashi, commentary to Genesis 24:67).

    However, when Eliezer proposes to take Rebekah back to Isaac in Canaan, he is told by Rebekah’s family: “Let us ask the maiden” (i.e. Rebekah). This is taken as an instruction for Jewish parents to weigh their child’s opinion in the balance during an arranged marriage. Regardless of whether proper procedure is followed, this is not the end of the decision – it is believed by Jews that the final say belongs to God, who may have different plans (compare with the match of Jacob & Leah).

    [edit]Talmudic references

    The Talmud (Bavli Kiddushin 12a, first version) states that academy head Rav would give corporal punishment to a man who would marry without shidduchin, that is, [4] without prearrangement by the couple. The text gives three versions of Rav’s practice; the other two versions disagree. Some authorities rule according to the first version,[5][6] while others rule according to the other two versions.[7][8]

    In Kiddushin 41a states that a man should not marry a woman he has not seen, lest he come to violate Love your neighbour as yourself.

    The etymology of the words “shidduch” and “shadchan” is uncertain. The Medieval Rabbi Nissim of Gerona (commonly called Ran) traces it back to the Aramaic word for “calm” (cf. Targum to Judges 5:31), and elaborates that the main purpose of the shidduch process is for young people to “settle down” into marriage (Commentary of the Ran to Talmud, Shabbat 10a).

    Footnotes:

    5) Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Women, Laws of Ishut, 3:22 and Sanctity, Laws of Prohibited Relations, 21:14

    6) Rabbi Yosef Karo, Shulchan Aruch, III:26:4

    7) Hagahot Maimoniot on Mishneh Torah, Sanctity, ad. loc.

    8) Rema on Shulchan Aruch ad. loc.

    (From Wikpedia-Shadchan)

    The Sephardim (who hold of the Beis Yosef), and Yemenite Jews(who hold of the Rambam),probably are more lenient and perhaps follow the view that you can marry without a Shadchan, (they follow the first version of that Talmud in Kiddushin regarding b’lo shidduchei), (for example north African Jews allow on ‘Meimuna’ for the genders to mix like on Tub bi Av), whilst Ashkenazim who follow Maimoniot and Rema, follow the second version that you have to marry with a Shadchan. This is just my theory, please correct me!

    Cherrybim maybe this explains your post, (maybe)?

    #808638

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Since you asked for a correction, Shidduchi means the negotiations beforehand. In other words, by going out, no matter through who, you are being Yotze Shidduchi. You don’t think the Nun is arbitrary, do you?

    #808639

    im not sure its appropriate to be discussing nuns on this website

    #808640

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    80: what is the point of this thread?

    #808641

    MichaelC
    Member

    I want to marry a girl without a Shadchan

    #808642

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “can i date a girl without Shadchan????????”

    Why would you want to take the shadchan along on the date? Are you dating the shadchan?

    #808643

    80: what is the point of this thread?

    i dont know

    i didnt start it

    but i really dont know how we got from shadduchim to discussing xian clergy

    #808644

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If you met someone without a Shadchan and asked a Rov to marry you, Do you think the Rov would object? (Assuming the Rov knew either family)

    #808645

    MichaelC
    Member

    No apushatayid, a Shadchan is a 3rd party, that e.g. asks the girl do you want to meet this boy, she gives her information about the boy, and if the girl likes the information, she meets him.

    #808646

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    80, that’s very funny. How’d you suggest I spell it?

    #808647

    cherrybim
    Participant

    And it would make more sense to me for Rav to give lashes for kiddushin without tanayim as this assures forerthought to the marriage compared to the misunderstandings which comes with spontaneity.

    Shadchanim certainly have a tradition in our history, but matchmakers are found in many cultures.

    EDITED

    #808648

    good point

    #808649

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Michael, what is causing you to assume that Shidduchi and Shadchan are the same word? Are Geneiva and Ganav one and the same, as well?

    #808650

    WIY
    Member

    Nuhn?

    #808651

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Why would the girl want to meet the shadchan, wouldnt she want to meet the boy? Unless the girl is interested in marrying the shadchan?

    #808652

    MichaelC
    Member

    So this means according to the Jewish law, I can see a female anywhere, and ask her to marry me ??????????????

    #808653

    MichaelC
    Member

    Diddn’t Rabbi Falk (i think it was him) say that you can’t do this.

    #808654

    MichaelC
    Member

    I am currently listening to Rabbi Tauber who says ‘you have to check the person you are marrying (for faults-based on Talmud Kiddushin), before you marry them’ this may be the use of a Shadchan.

    #808655

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    This means, according to the Jewish law, you can see [an eligible Jewish girl] anywhere, and [find out more about her, and eventualy] ask her to marry you.

    #808657

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Why dont you ask Rabbi Tauber your shadchan question?

    #808658

    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    So since I am a qualified Shadchan I have no problem dating a girl of my choosing since it obviously is going through a qualified Shadchan with a proven track record.

    MichaelC; and any other singles, I give an Accredited Shadchan Course; So you wont have a problem.

    Please call

    1-888 be-a-Yenta-2

    #808659

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    So this means according to the Jewish law, I can see a female anywhere, and ask her to marry me ??????????????

    Yes, but it doesnt mean she will say YES

    #808660

    MichaelC
    Member

    ‘apushatayid’ i am listening to Rabbi Tauber on Torah Anytime.com

    #808661

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Clearly you dont understand what he is saying. Speak to your own Rav when you go to shul tonight.

    #808663

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So why do the Charedi Rabbanim rebuke everyone for talking to girls (with intention to marrying them), why do they always says the genders must remain separate, and only a Shadchan will arrange them to meet. Why can’t singles meet in social evenings,in bars, ect,!

    Amazing! You were convinced so fast!

    Just 5 minutes ago you thought Rav gave malkus for getting married without a shadchan! And now you are already suggesting guys and girls meet in bars.

    (Oh, there was never an agenda here.)

    #808664

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    i dont think Chassidim have a Mesorah going back before the Talmud

    You Kofer!!

    #808665

    MichaelC
    Member

    I have got a agenda ‘popa’ my mother is telling me to meet women in e.g. bars (with no Shadchan), but i am not sure if this is Halachically ok?-

    My agenda=i want to listen to my mother,

    What is stopping me=halacha.

    Solution=ask my Rov.

    #808667

    MichaelC
    Member

    I will be away now for 10 hours-i am afraid i will not be here to reply to any more posts.

    #808670

    adorable
    Participant

    ur gonna take her to a bar for that long?

    #808671

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    MichaelC:

    A- It says without shidduchim, not without a shadchan — i.e. they have to meet first.

    B- Chasidim do not have a mesorah predating the Talmud.

    C- There is a middle ground between a shadchan and a bar. Even if there weren’t halachic issues with drinking in a non-Jewish bar, from what I hear, it is very unlikely you will meet a girl who you actually want to see again.

    #808672

    Chein
    Member

    Meeting via shadchan is a middle ground, between a beshow or arranged marriage and meeting in college.

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 137 total)
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