Can someone explain to me why some frum people are cavalier about corona virus

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  • #1862310
    yitzymotcha
    Participant

    I am not trying to create sinah. I am simply trying to understanding why frum people would send kids to a yeshiva during corona virus? Or crown without masks. I’m not out to create sinah. Just trying to understand.
    Is it that people who do that feel that there’s no harm in doing so? Haven’t they seen how many frum Yidden have died from corona virus?
    The only understanding I have is I read years ago that Reb Yisroel Salanter said some times a person is so sick that the only mitzva they are left with is vinishmarted maod lanafshosaichem. So the yetzer hara specifically tries to get sick people to not take care of their health since that’s the only mitzva they have left.
    I’ve been thinking about that alot during the corona virus.

    #1862374
    musser zoger
    Participant

    שְׁאֵרִ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל לֹֽא־יַעֲשׂ֤וּ עַוְלָה֙ וְלֹא־יְדַבְּר֣וּ כָזָ֔ב. מִ֑

    #1862376
    musser zoger
    Participant

    שְׁאֵרִ֨ית יִשְׂרָאֵ֜ל לֹֽא־יַעֲשׂ֤וּ עַוְלָה֙ וְלֹא־יְדַבְּר֣וּ כָזָ֔ב.

    #1862370
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    Yitzymotcha:
    “I’ve been thinking about that alot during the corona virus.”
    Get a hobby, learn a new language, take a online course, find a way to spend your time consecutively instead of thinking so much.

    #1862384
    Mistykins
    Participant

    Because people don’t want to think they are vulnerable. They hear that the mortality rate is 5%, and of that number, 80% or higher are seniors (in other words, a 1% chance for general population), and believe they’re safe. After all, a regular flu kills x number a year, and we don’t stop living for that.

    Furthermore, many people believe that religion automatically keeps them safe. “G-d would never punish people during a minyan. Coronavirus only affects bad people. The bochurim are learning Hashem’s word. He will protect them”.

    Otherwise, they recognize that being locked away alone is not living, and would rather enjoy life regardless of the risks.

    #1862389

    The chasiddishe community has the closest thing to herd immunity, hence the lack of any subsequent outbreak be it after 2500 attended a funeral or the opening of Shuls etc. I also believe that it’s the least likely place for anyone to get the virus as almost everyone you speak to has had it already. Not that I condone the lack of social distancing. (Just some food for thought)

    #1862396
    Kilaolomchasdo
    Participant

    I hear your question, but the statistics show the chances of a kid chas vshalom dying from this is EXTREMELY low (almost non-existent). They’re much more likely to chas vshalom die in a car accident. Now, it says in the messilas yesharim “yeish yirah vyeish yirah,” there’s the good type of fear, which is for a danger that’s common to happen (ex- very likely to cvsh’ get run over if one isn’t looking both ways before he crosses the street), and the bad type of fear for an uncommon danger (ex- very unlikely to cvsh’ get murdered in a safe neighborhood). For the common dangers, Hashem gave us seichel to use. He WANTS us to put in the hishtadlus to defend ourselves from that (and is in fact a mitzvah). But for the uncommon dangers, we need to have bitachon, and if Hashem wants to cvsh’ have someone get hurt by a danger like that, they wouldn’t be able to prevent it anyways.

    Now, you can say there’s no concern for the kids, but maybe they’ll infect older people. I certainly hear that argument, but be aware that:
    1) There are some studies out there showing it’s POSSIBLE kids don’t infect adults (of course we don’t know for sure, so we should still be careful)
    2) Many people already had the disease, and it seems VERY LIKELY that the anti bodies will make them immune at least for a short period of time (many health experts say that, and the fact that they haven’t been able to find any solid cases of reinfection despite this circulating the world make it seem very likely).
    3) It could be the Yeshivas are still trying to be careful with some social distancing rules.
    4) It could be many of them aren’t fully aware how contagious this is, or how many asymptomatic cases of this their are. Let’s be dan lkav zechus, please.

    #1862397
    hml
    Participant

    Schools were closed in B’nei Braq today because teachers tested positive & all the kids are now quarantined. So much for the herd immunity! It has slowed down significantly here, but there are new cases and deaths every day (small numbers but still)

    To answer the question, I think Mistykins has the best POV. I think though you would have to ask such a person directly…. he will probably say because his Ruv told him so.

    #1862400
    Maivin
    Participant

    First of all, that is such generalization.
    Second of all, even if what you are SPECULATING is true, the reason being is that you only see negative media reports about the frum, and chasidic communities. Believe you me, in the recent lock-down in eretz yisrael, there were more fines handed out in Tel Av-iv than any other city. And that is also taking into account the anti-chareidi political stance in israel.

    #1862401
    akuperma
    Participant

    For the same reasons many people are increasingly angry at the government over Covid19. The antibody testing, and occasional attempts to randomly test people (rather than testing only those with serious symptoms) suggest that perhaps 90% of all people who “get” Cover19 do not get sick, and that among the small percentage of those getting symptoms who die, most are already very old or very ill. The two characteristics, that only a small number of those infected become ill, and that most deaths are among the elderly and unhealthy are RADICALLY unlike past epidemics such as smallpox or bubonic plague. The correct response would allow for voluntary social distancing and enhanced teleworking, and would encourage the sick and elderly to “cacoon” , but wold have avoided the unreasonable measures that have stripped billions of people (whose lives were never at risk) of their livelihoods and of their hard earned assets, not to mention suppressing Limud Torah and Shmerias Mitsvos (which unlike Covid19, does put our continued existence at risk).

    #1862402
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    Probably a combination of some of the following:
    1. We have an issue that we think that we have a “yiddeshe kupp” which causes us to be ibber-chachamim and actually do stupid things.
    2. By insulating ourselves from the media, we’re missing important information about how the virus works, government ordinances regarding the virus, and what kind of effect our actions have on our neighbors’ perceptions of us.
    3. As Orthodox Jews, there are areas in science in which we inevitably will clash with. For example, scientism rejects any supernatural occurences. This has created a sceptisim of any science, including climate change, vaccinations, and even weather forcasts.
    4. A segment of us have had a deficient education. Or in other words, some of us are dumb (probably including me.)
    edited

    #1862404
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    commonsaychel has the best answer though

    #1862408
    hachareidy hoamity
    Participant

    Dear yitzy!
    When dealing with any thing in life the guideline for the Orthodox Jew is halocho. If you ever take a test on any halocho in the whole toire and you answer machloikes on all the question s you will score at least 80%. When asking why drum people do something you should know the answers won’t be found here the answers you may find in shulchan oruch and in its commentaries. If you want marei mekomos I can post a few.

    #1862422
    yitzymotcha
    Participant

    That’s an insult.

    #1862423
    sariray
    Participant

    I am cavalier about corona because I had it, I survived it just fine and I now carry antibodies . Big gov would have me believe that I am STILL somehow at risk – but the vaccine they will invent will somehow create antibodies that work, even though mine aren’t good enough.

    #1862428
    yitzymotcha
    Participant

    I hear what everyone is saying. Maybe the media is just focusing on us. It is true that non Jews are clamoring to open up.
    hachareidi-are there real poskim who paskened to open yeshivas? to crowd in the streets?

    #1862452
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    ” suggest that perhaps 90% of all people who “get” Cover19 do not get sick”

    akuperma
    you keep repeating this, I just don’t understand it. Can you please explain to me why that changes anything?

    say you live in a city of 1,000,000 people If R”L you had to choose a disease to infect the city. would you choose disease a. where 100% get it it and 10,000 die a fatality rate of 0.1% or b. A disease that infects 5,000 people and 5,000 die a fatality rate of 100%

    (for purposes of this question lets assume you want as few people dead as possible)
    Why does the fact that 90% of those infected w/ the coronavirus don’t get symptoms make things better?

    #1862476
    Health
    Participant

    akuperma -” whose lives were never at risk”

    WRONG! Almost Every single human being is at risk of Dying from COVID19.

    #1862473
    Health
    Participant

    Kilaolomchasdo -“Now, you can say there’s no concern for the kids,”

    That’s Not TRUE! There’s Pediatric Immune System Inflammation Disease.

    #1862491
    MrSarahLevine613
    Participant

    “I hear your question, but the statistics show the chances of a kid chas vshalom dying from this is EXTREMELY low (almost non-existent).”

    That’s true . But at the same time look at this website — and look at the number of obituaries of people who passed away from the virus. Look at the local newspaper — and look at the pages upon pages of Covid obituaries. I think there is a bit of cognitive dissonance — again considering that in most orthodox neighborhoods we know of multiple people who died as a result – and many of them with no prior existing medical conditions — and not all of them old.

    #1862515
    a mamin
    Participant

    BECAUSE THE GOVERNOR AND MAYOR HAVE LIED TO US! Because the numbers aren’t real ! Not everyone who died since March 2020 died of Corona! There are many people who died for other reasons but that doesn’t make them any money so they lie! New hospitalizations are also lies! Why should I trust them ? I take my precautions but locking myself up for two months is more than enough ! Putting all our local businesses in danger is long enough! Our health is not in danger if the local businesses open with social distancing etc! My local stores are more disinfected than any Walmart or Cosco! This is all about making Trump look bad and WON’T CHANGE MY MIND ! TRUMP IS THE BEST PRESIDENT WE EVER HAD!

    #1862514
    akuperma
    Participant

    Health and ubiquitin: Ten million people will die in the USA under’s Trump’s presidency. In Eretz israel around 40000 people will die this year. Annually, close to 100 Million people die throughout the world. It is sad, especially for those who die. But this is normal Based on the government’s figures, Covid19 will raise the annual death rate in the USA from around 8 per 1000, to perhaps 11 per 1000 – back tgo what it was in the mid-20th century. The “Blue” argument is that for what is basically a very bad flu, we should stop the economy and reduce everyone to poverty. That would be appropriate for a serious public health threat such as a renewed Smallpox or an anti-biotic resistant strain of Bubonic Plague. These are diseases what would see the death rate rise to serious levels (perhaps 500 per 1000). But Covid19 is not in that class. The government was wrong to throw much (perhaps most) of the population out of work and to destroy their life’s savings for a disease that threatened to reduce our lives to the “misery” of those dark ages of the 20th century. Human die. Humans get sick. If you don’t like it, take it up with Ha-Shem — but don’t go around destroying other people’s lives and property since you are paranoid about a virus that is would be more annoyance that disaster, if the government had freaked out and turned terrorist on its own population.

    #1862520
    Doing my best
    Participant

    I’ve spoken to many people, read a lot of Jewish sites and this is what I came out with.
    1) Corona is a hoax by the dems to mess up trump.
    2) it’s ok because the goyim also don’t follow the rules.
    3) I’m not scared.
    4) I heard that there was a study somewhere that kids don’t transfer it.
    5) you’re just anti-minyan.
    6) I heard a story that an askan was in a pizza shop Motzei pesach.
    7) you’re really worried?
    8) more people die in car crashes/ we don’t shut down for flu.
    9) I didn’t follow the rules till now so now I have antibodies and can continue not following the rules.
    10) The economy will collapse, so to save it I decided to let my kid play in the neighbors house.

    #1862524
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    akuperma

    you havent answered my question.

    “will raise the annual death rate in the USA from around 8 per 1000, to perhaps 11 per 1000 ”
    The deaths in NY in april was 200% higher than a year ago. That is IN SPITE of social distancing. Hospitls came close to breaking (and in some ways did break a bit) . If not for social distancing it would have been far worse.

    #1862532
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear A maamin,
    So who are you a maamin in?

    #1862533
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Common,
    This is an excellent time to think and rethink things…….. Too bad so many are wasting the opportunity.

    #1862534
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Yitzy,
    Because we are spoiled and pampered. We never saw everyone we know having to cope at once.

    #1862560
    Health
    Participant

    Akuperma -“Health and ubiquitin: Ten million people will die in the USA under’s Trump’s presidency. In Eretz israel around 40000 people will die this year. Annually, close to 100 Million people die throughout the world. It is sad, especially for those who die. But this is normal Based on the government’s figures, Covid19 will raise the annual death rate in the USA from around 8 per 1000, to perhaps 11 per 1000…. The government was wrong to throw much (perhaps most) of the population out of work and to destroy their life’s savings for a disease that threatened to reduce our lives to the “misery” of those dark ages of the 20th century.”

    Stop promoting Goyishe ideas. They value Money more than Life; until it’s their life at stake.
    Judaism values every Life, Money is Not part of the equation!

    #1862537
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Shnitzel,
    There is more to that combination, but it is better left out. Like, the example in number 3 is not accurate.

    #1862595
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Hachareidy,
    A source for the first line would suffice.

    #1862601
    a mamin
    Participant

    @Nomesorah! The Heilege Bashefer of course!!

    #1862594
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Akuperma,
    Covid has shut down our gashmiyus to a great extent. What are you talking about, “not to mention suppressing Limud Torah and Shmerias Mitsvos”? For those that are not ill there is no excuse. Talking to friends and family, They are all keeping up with their learning. Why would a serious learner learn less if he has nowhere to go? People have more time now to do mitzvos, not less!!

    #1862593
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Sariray,
    Unlike yourself, the government is trying to take everyone into account.

    #1862622
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    n0m, having lived thru a number of crises including 9/11 Iearned to focus on my time constructively,
    The thinking and rethinking that I did focused in myself not on yennims. For example I am starting a new business project that I was a able to focus on, I managed to make a siyum on a mesktah.
    Hopefully as you mature you will understand

    #1862643
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    @n0mesorah

    When I wrote anti-Science, I meant to say that having to argue with some areas of science such as cosmology, biology, paleontology and archaeology to name a few, has created this break between us and science which made us break free from the blind support the goyim have for all science and scientists. This is why we don’t blindly trust the climatologists at the IPCC when they do their alarmist modeling. Unfortunately, some of us take this healthy scepticism and turn it ugly. But it isnt inherently bad.

    #1862673
    chymee
    Participant

    My take on this,
    The majority of Frum Yidn do not like to be told what to do,

    #1862666
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Common,
    That is wonderful! You are investing a lot in my maturity. I hope it pays off. Yitzy’s time has been no less constructive. Just less tangible.

    #1862665
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Shnitzel,
    I was making a different poin on this thread. There is cutting edge science for the supernatural, or anything else (basic theory) that is central to any outlook. It is bad to have a closed worldview, and still disagree with everyone out there.

    #1862722
    Kilaolomchasdo
    Participant

    @Health

    I’m not a poseik, but my assumption was that disease was rare enough that it would fall under the גדר of an uncommon danger, and that we don’t need to let the fear of that rare sickness stop our avodah. As far as I know, there’s a larger possibility a kid could chas v’shalom die in a car accident, but we’re not going to say “don’t ever drive kids to yeshiva.” Hashem wants us to take precautions against COMMON dangers. Taking precautions about every little tiny thing shows a lack of bittachon. Again, I’m not sure if this disease is common enough, but I was under the assumption it’s not.

    #1862732
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Kil

    Its good your not a posek. As your assumption is way off base. BH poskim saw the truth
    I’m baffled how you even came to such a bizarre assumption . Have you seen the shiova listing s on misaskim? the death notices on ywn over the past month? Dis it really seem like the same number of people that die from car accidents

    That said. Thank you for answering the OP’s question
    OP here is the answer doimg my best did an excellent job as well but here is an actual example

    #1862741
    Health
    Participant

    Kilaolomchasdo -“@Health – I’m not a poseik, but my assumption was that disease was rare enough that it would fall under the גדר of an uncommon danger, and that we don’t need to let the fear of that rare sickness stop our avodah. As far as I know, there’s a larger possibility a kid could chas v’shalom die in a car accident, but we’re not going to say “don’t ever drive kids to yeshiva.””

    It’s a good thing that you’re Not a Poisek, because you don’t know Halacha.
    When the Poiskim say to open Yeshivos in their town – I’m not against that.

    I was just commenting on this -“Now, you can say there’s no concern for the kids,”.
    This isn’t true!
    Don’t bring in comparisons to other things; like – “don’t ever drive kids to yeshiva”.
    This is what Poiskim do, and You’re NOT a Poisek!

    #1862833
    Kilaolomchasdo
    Participant

    @ubiquitin

    When I said “disease,” I WASN’T referring to covid-19. I was specifically responding to Health’s attack against me about the strange Kawasaki-type disease that unfortunately has devolved in rare cases of children. I agree that COVID-19 is common enough that Hashem wants us to take the correct precautions for that (and we should). I was only saying that maybe the extremely rare disease some of these children have developed falls under the category of an uncommon danger.

    @Health

    I agree, I’m not a baki in halachah, and I wasn’t coming to make a psak. Let me clarify. The creator of this topic was asking where these yidden are coming from, and I was merely coming to be danlkav zechus and explain the tzad why these particular yidden may not be as worried about it. Despite not being a poseik, I’m pretty confident if the ONLY concern for opening yeshiva’s was some RARE disease may chv”sh occur the askonim would still at least be ok with opening yeshivas with proper precautions. I made a pretty logical kal v’chomer: If our poskim feel it’s safe enough for us to drive kids to Yeshiva where the danger (as far as I’m aware) is greater, kal v’chomer our poskim wouldn’t feel it’s safe enough to take our kids to yeshivah IF the only concern was about the children. I have a raeih too: Why are many askonim calling for the opening of camps now? Not only that, but during the Swine Flu epidemic, the yeshivos didn’t close down, and that was DEFINITELY more common then this Kawasaki-type disease.
    Due to the logical kaal v’chomer, I assume the reason the poskim closed down the yeshivos were because of a concern that the kids may chas vshalom infect their older family members or older rebeim. I agree that’s a concern enough to have them shut for the time being until they tell us otherwise. As I said before, I was merely trying to explain where some yidden are coming from, because clearly the creator of this topic was looking to be daan lkav zechus.

    #1862834
    Kilaolomchasdo
    Participant

    By saying “Now, you can say there’s no concern for the kids,” I meant “Now, there’s at least a tzad for one to say that we don’t need to be as concerned about them.” I don’t know for CERTAIN if this is common enough. Only based on what I said before was I saying I can hear a solid tzad for one to assume it’s not enough of a concern to close all yeshivos.

    #1862850
    yitzymotcha
    Participant

    ubiquitin basically said what I was wondering when I started the thread. All of a sudden so many Yidden died. I read that the chevra kadisha in Boro Park that does over 90% of the taharos at most gets 200 taharos a month and here in one month they did 1000! I was a real pandemic not something made up yet for some people olam kaminhago holeich when it comes to safety practices. Granted the people at the yeshiva today were wearing masks but still they all use the same bathroom, sink, we are an am navon. That’s why I wondered. Do their rabonim really tell them its Shomair pasayim Hashem? I guess I’ve beaten a dead horse though.

    #1862851
    huju
    Participant

    “Doing my best” had a very good comment, which was also very polite. Forgive me, but I am going to be blunt: Frumers who don’t take COVID-19 seriously, as well as gentiles who don’t take it seriously, are not particularly smart. It’s that simple (and so are they).

    #1862859
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    Yitzchok adlerstein has a pretty good article on this question.

    #1862886
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I know someone who was hit by a car and was only slightly injured, which proves that it was never a big deal and the government is not to be trusted when they try to enforce traffic rules.

    #1862889
    mexipal
    Participant

    It’s very simple. As maaminim Bnei maaminim we know that if there is a true danger it must be a message from Hashem. He must be telling us to change our ways. It is very difficult to digest such a message. It’s much easier to say that it’s all one big hoax and conspiracy

    #1862980
    Health
    Participant

    Kilaolomchasdo -“Let me clarify.”

    If you would have clarified at the beginning, I wouldn’t have to post to you in the first place!

    #1863039
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    Kilaolomchasdo
    “When I said “disease,” I WASN’T referring to covid-19”

    I’m sorry. I completely misunderstood.

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