Can we have an adult conversation about education?
Home › Forums › Decaffeinated Coffee › Can we have an adult conversation about education?
- This topic has 155 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 8 months, 1 week ago by Always_Ask_Questions.
September 12, 2022 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #2123653
משה תיקן להם לישראל שיהו שואלין ודורשין בענינו של יום
I understand that the NYT and certain others who have raised the issue before had bile in their hearts and were not looking out for the best interests of our community. I understand that those who champion this cause use anti-Semitic tropes to fan the flames of hatred against us using education of our children as a pretext to sow hatred against the very children they claim to protect. They must be condemned loudly.
This topic is not about them.
This topic is also not about the parents’ right to choose to educate their children however they please. Let us assume that this is an absolute right and the only question is – should a parent choose what we have now or should a parent want more for their children.
This topic is about us. Those of us who pay 50% or more of our income to pay tuitions because we value Torah and learning Torah. Those of us want to see our children develop a love for Torah learning that they carry with them every day for the rest of their lives. Those of us who have rejected the culture of society and choose to live in a different culture that is based on Torah values.
Are we ok with the state of education in our yeshivos? Do we believe that there has been a decline in the quality of the education? Do we believe that our children are being given the same Yeshiva education we received? Or have so many yeshivas become glorified babysitting centers where the children graduate without the basics of math, english, science and history and even worse, only a cursory understanding of Gemoro, Halocho, Tanach, etc.
Are we comfortable with the sight of too many our brethren struggle to string together coherent sentences in English? Do we want our children to be able to express themselves in written and spoken word? Are they given these tools in school?
Our world has a strong work ethic as anyone who knows the community or even visited the recent Satmar Business expo can tell you. Do we not want every one of our children to work in any kosher field they choose – even those that require an advanced education and degree?
Or am I the crazy one? Is everything perfectly fine? Is there a problem here – at all – that needs to be addressed?September 12, 2022 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #2123722
If “srormfront” wrote an article about how jews are nasty and bring dirt wherever they go, would you say it’s “time to have a conversation” about how we treat our neighborhoods?
Antisemitism and Torah hated, both of which which the NYT article personified, shouldn’t cause us anything other than grief, pain, and an impetus to defend our way of life .. Even if you’re not chasidish, and your children take regents classes.
This is a time for solidarity, for solemn prayer, for making a public fast day if tomorrow the vote is sealed. Our future in America is in jeopardy; you know they won’t stop until every Yeshiva is co-ed, LGBT friendly, and barely teaches any torah.September 12, 2022 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #2123720commonsaychelParticipant
This is what you posted and we are suppose to take you seriously?
I am a Roman Catholic. No, no, I do not believe that Jesus was our savior nor do I believe him to be the son of God. I certainly do not believe in the Holy Ghost and, to be honest, I am not really sure what that even is. But believe me (as our President is want to say) I am a Catholic.
Don’t get me wrong, I have never stepped into a church, I did not attend Sunday school, I know very, very little about the New Testament and if you asked me what mass was, I’d probably tell you it is the property of matter that measures its resistance to acceleration. But I call myself a Roman catholic so a Roman Catholic I am.
My father was not a Roman Catholic and neither was my mother but I was converted by a Roman Catholic who shares my views of our religion. Truth is, to me being Roman Catholic means being a good person and having Catholic values (because, after all, we all know that Muslims, Jews and them awful Baptists do not believe in being a good person or changing the world for the better).
As I do not know or care for the Catholic rights, I don’t have rosemary beads and think they’re silly, Hail Mary is what I like to see at the end of a football game and again, I don’t believe in Jesus, I have developed a new form of Catholic prayer. It entails, wearing a pasta strainer on my head (I borrowed that one from the Pastafarians) and wearing speedos and chanting the lyrics to any song by Abba. This is how I, as a Catholic, like to perform the prayer service. Now, truth be told, I conduct my services maybe once a year but as a Catholic, I demand that the Holy See set aside a space for me at the Vatican to conduct my mass every 15th of the month and on Christmas and Easter, too. The refusal by the Church to cede to my requests shows great intolerance on the part of the Church and I will stop donating money to the Archdioceses and instead of telling people I meet how nice Catholics are, I will encourage them to spread lies about the Catholic people all over the world.
And that is the Reform argument to pray at the Kotel.September 12, 2022 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #2123729GadolhadorahParticipant
“Am I the crazy one? Is everything perfectly fine? Is there a problem here – at all – that needs to be addressed”
Very well stated. No you are not crazy and yes there is a problem to be addressed. “Education”, “Internet” etc. have become the cutting edge of the “culture wars” within our tzibur. Some truly want to cling to a torah world from the Alte Heim that they feel is slowly slipping away and passionately want to deter what they sincerely believe are the evil vehicles of change. Others are willing to accept limited change and believe they will retain more control in the long term by managing the instruments of those change for themselves and their families rather than adopting a total rejection mindset. Ultimately, the world is changing in terms of the need for certain basic skills and tools for meeting basic needs and the next generation will need those skills and tools for survival.September 12, 2022 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #2123747
Avira: this is not about them.
Commonsechel: when you come around to the point I was making about the reform (who don’t believe in the Beis hamikdash or prayer) you’ll get a good laugh and wish you could delete your posts.
Gadolhadorah: sorry but my post is directed at the oilam further to the right of where you generally stand. I’m glad you agree but I am hoping those further to right would contribute their thoughts.September 12, 2022 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #2123746
Gadol, when the gender obsessed government is given free reign in our yeshivos, that is not something we can give in to an inch. Chinuch is our lifeblood. We’re not talking yeshivishe standards, we’re not talking about chasidim..if the government and the anti torah forces have their way, they will not allow even modern Orthodox education. They will have drag queens in our schools, no tznius dress code, pride month will be obligatory, and so on. Understand what they’ve done to the universities and the public schools.
We’re next.September 12, 2022 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #2123756
1. You must completely separate the discussion of education pertaining to Limudei Kodesh from secular studies. Some/many parents, may desire — fully within their rights — to forgoe any secular education and focus entirely on Limudei Kodesh and on being a Ben Torah, Yid and mentsch with stellar middos.
This is not only their natural right, but it is a highly commendable choice. Even if you disagree with the parents.
2. To answer your OP, Torah education has not declined with time over the last 75 years. Au contraire. It has markedly improved.
3. Those spending 50% of their income on their children’s education are clearly and absolutely focusing on their second education. To the detriment of their Torah education, I might add, as the secular is then occupying a significant amount of the child’s limited time per day.
No one needs to spend remotely nearly 50% of their income of their children’s Torah education.
4. Not every of what you call “kosher fields” is as kosher as you may think. Some are less kosher than others, even if not outright forbidden. There is very good reason to educate one’s children to the exclusion of gaining a taste or ability to choose a less kosher line of work environment over a more kosher/Jewish field.September 12, 2022 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #2123757
AviraDeArah is engaging in the typical scare mongering whenever someone wants to discuss the educational problems in the chassididsh world. The whole mess that we are in is because people from the Chassidish velt complained to the government about (some of) their schools. We all know that there is a significant amount of chassidishe yeshivas that provide very poor education. Solidarity with them also means them actually changing their system so that they don’t harm our Litvish schools that are much better at meeting standards and not drawing attention to ourselves. This whole discussion would be different if after looking at mainstream Litvish schools in NY the government decided they needed to be interfered with. However, for many Chassidishe schools the government has a valid taana and unless there is change with them our Litvishe schools are going to have to continue to put up a fight that we did not ask for.September 12, 2022 6:58 pm at 6:58 pm #2123760
@ besalel No.
@ ADA Delay and obfuscate.
@ common Irrelevant.
@ Gadol There is a legitimate argument for providing basic skills in primary school and either an apprenticeship or technical program to learn a trade.
@ ADA This isn’t about CRT, gender studies, or whatever boogyman talk radio is babbling about. It’s isn’t even about hours of instruction or covering basic materials. The real “threat to Jewish education” that the yeshiva education establishment will fight tooth and nail to prevent are minimum qualifications for teachers. Increasingly, yeshivos are relying on seminary graduates and retirees to teach secular classes on a part time or “temporary” basis.September 12, 2022 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #2123795
“This topic is also not about the parents’ right to choose to educate their children however they please.”
The thing is THAT is EXACTLY what the conversation is about.
Everything else is filler.
The NYT accurately reported that many schools do not provide even basic math/English throughout elementary school.
Most of the arguments ive seen:
The NYT are anti-Semites,
Chasidim don’t murder
its 9/11 we shouldn’t talk about other things
Non-Chasidish schools do have a decent education
Public schools are also bad.
Some Chasidim are successful
ALL those arguments (even if true) aren’t relevant to the issue at hand .
Namely that many chasidish children aren’t getting a “basic education.”
Now, you could argue that is the parents’s right.
And honestly I’m not sure where Parent’s right ends. Surely we agree that if Parents taught their children when you cross the street close your eyes and daven and make a run for it, that wouldn’t be their right “to choose to educate their children however they please.” Is teaching basic English the same,? Certainly not. I’m not sure where that line is drawn.
further complicating things is that Some Chasidish parents want the schools to teach more, they can’t just send to another school . not to mention the fact that the impetus for the scrutiny is largely from people who were affected by it, and have since tried to move on.
Of course there lack of education is holding them back, which is PRECISLCY the point. The question is is that a right parents have?
Its not an easy question to answer. And there probably is no perfect answerSeptember 12, 2022 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #2123798
Ym, marx – learn Jewish history; whenever the government tries to tell us how to do anything, it doesn’t end well. It wouldn’t have ended well if this was 20 years ago when things were relatively sane, because it would bring in anti Torah values into our schools and our children’s minds.
It’s not “fear mongering” – what’s to stop the government from saying that substantial equivalency requires a robust education in gender studies and tolerance of LGBT? They pump the kids full of this stuff in public school.
Give it 2 years – first it’s “basic English” then it’s “on grade level”, until they mandate that we spend just as much time on secular studies as public schools, including mandatory gym classes, music, etc…then give it 3 more years and after they will have reduced yeshivos into after-school talmud torahs, they will force us to have the full gamut of gender and LGBT in our class.
They will abolish dress codes, as they are gender constrictive; tznius is a violation of “children’s rights” (a movement which wants to limit parent’s abilities to educate their children religiously)
This is what’s happening in public schools.
The hate speech in the NYT and the gezeros on chinuch should spur us only to reach inward and see how we can improve our chinuch – in limudei kodesh! My rebbe rav belsky said during the gezeros on metzitzah b’peh, that it’s just like by chanukah, when the cohanim had become complacent in their avodah… Hashem then threatened the avodah and Torah altogether. By milah, rav belsky said that younger mohalim give a small peck to be yotzei zayn, and don’t treat the mitzvah carefully.
When chinuch is threatened, it’s a sign that we’re not doing enough of it.September 12, 2022 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #2123800
Let’s say you personally believe children should have a modern chinuch, or a litvishe chinuch, or a yekkish one – you need to respect the chasidishe opinion on chinuch. It works. In many ways it works better than all the others. You have no right to pass judgement and allow the goyim to be rodef fellow yidden just because you think they have a “valid taanah”September 12, 2022 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #2123806yaakov doeParticipant
I haven’t noticed any comments about the fact that the yeshivas take government money or the possibility that parents could possibly be charged with educational neglect for not providing a minimal secular education.September 12, 2022 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #2123808
Yeshivos get $2000 per child. That’s less than 10% of what every public school child gets. Chasidishe parents pay with their tax dollars, far more than 2000 per child; yeshivos therefore, aren’t “taking” government money at all – the government is taking from chasidishe parents who don’t use public schools.September 12, 2022 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #2123810LostsparkParticipant
My secular neighbor sends her two daughters to public school. She gave my wife and I a long talk about how the yeshiva system is failing so many boys, and how they would have no opportunities for parnassa. Many off hand comments about how we were disadvantaging our boys.
Years later her eldest daughter (12) is dressing like a boy and lecturing her family about gender ideology and oppression of these new neo“minorities”.
She expressed to my wife how distraught she was and explained how pervasive this narrative is in what used to be a very esteemed public school.
All I could do is smile.September 12, 2022 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #2123811
“whenever the government tries to tell us how to do anything, it doesn’t end well.”
The government wants us to have regents and we’ve been doing that for quite a while and there hasn’t been any problems until people from the Chassidishe velt complained.
“Let’s say you personally believe children should have a modern chinuch, or a litvishe chinuch, or a yekkish one – you need to respect the chasidishe opinion on chinuch.”
Stop with the ridiculous multi-cultural rhetoric. I don’t have to “respect” their chinuch if I think it causes harm to their own and indirectly causes harm to the rest of Klal Yisrael.
“You have no right to pass judgement and allow the goyim to be rodef fellow yidden just because you think they have a “valid taanah”
What about their actions causing the government to be rodef our institutions, don’t they have to care about that?
As ubiquitin wrote there are a lot of distractive arguments being put forward but in the end of the day the NYT’s article is correct in its basic point, many chassidishe schools give a terrible education to their students. It’s not “Hate Speech” and they need to change for this problem to be solved.September 12, 2022 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #2123829
The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled that parents have the right to stop all education after eighth grade.September 12, 2022 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #2123838Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
maybe we need two threads, one for adult conversation as requested and one for mutual insults.September 13, 2022 12:36 am at 12:36 am #2123854@ExposeYaffedParticipant
Q: “Are we ok with the state of education in our yeshivos?”
Generally speaking, yes. We are successfully meeting the critical needs of the vast majority of children.
Q: “Do we believe that there has been a decline in the quality of the education? Or …”
Perhaps Torah learned “al yeday hdchak” was better. Otherwise, no. In fact, as others have pointed out, both delivery and retention of our education have improved.
Q “Are we comfortable with the sight of too many our brethren struggle to string together coherent sentences in English”
The vast majority of your “brethren” speak English well, primarily because their parents have decided that English should be their first language – or at the very least, speak English at home.
You demean those who speak Yiddish to their children, and frankly, that is not very enlightening.
In addition, this is not a legal or even a societal issue. According to US law, English is not an official language of the United States. Instead of being proud of your Jewish heritage and the rich Yiddish culture, you live in shame.
Q: Do we want our children to be able to express themselves in written and spoken word? Are they given these tools in school?
Q :Do we not want every one of our children to work in any kosher field they choose – even those that require an advanced education and degree?
Personally, I would be happy with them working in the frum community, while having an income that allows them to spend time with their family and learning.
Q: “Or am I the crazy one? Is everything perfectly fine? Is there a problem here – at all – that needs to be addressed?”
You’re not crazy, you’ve become “Americanized” and your values are not what they should be.September 13, 2022 12:38 am at 12:38 am #2123861Ari256Participant
NYS provides a lot of funding for education. Included in that are seit and OT Speech.
But while we do not want interference in our education.
I was not aware at the lack of effort being put in. If yeshivas put forward the education and the boys/parents don’t find it critical and therefore do not do well in testing or less of an emphasis is placed upon it. Well that’s what I thought it was like anyhow.
Also that the teachers are subjected to no derech eretz is not fair to them.September 13, 2022 12:39 am at 12:39 am #2123862
Marx, it’s not multi cultural. It’s about respecting daas torah, whether that be the satmar rov, or rav moshe feinstein. Chasidishe gedolim were the architects for their communities. They are entitled to their opinions. They held that English should he kept at a minimum. They’re successful, and they are not harming any other part of klal yisroel in their ways – chasidim support many needy litvishe yidden, especially in eretz yisroel.
The Times’ piece was anything but accurate. They interviewed drug addicts, drop outs, and the most nebach people they could find. They didn’t interview a single average chasidishe businessman – that’s where they mostly go. And they’re very, very successful in business. They’re also very creative; Hamodia had a three-week series in their magazine showing the success of the heimish world in business, skilled labor and other parnosa fields.
The article did not mention the strong family structure, low crime, drug and unemployment rates, or anything else which shows the success of the education system. It’s a different kind of success, it’s not designed to produce accountants.
You’ve bought into actual sinas chinom – not the fake seenat chinam that the modern world dreams up, but real, bona fide baseless hatred of another jew.September 13, 2022 8:05 am at 8:05 am #2123891
“They interviewed drug addicts, drop outs, and the most nebach people they could find. ”
Some would argue drug addicts too have a right to education.
Moreover the reason WHY they are drop outs and nebachs, is because the system failed them, which is by design.
“The article did not mention the strong family structure, low crime, drug and unemployment rates,”
Why would it? That wasn’t what the article is about. They didn’t mention the cool motorcade the Rebbe gets driven around in either, because it has nothing to do with anything.
The law requires education be “substantially equivalent” that is defined.
You want it redefined? By all means go to court and argue kids don’t need English/math look at our society it’s working. I’m not being facetious, while I’m not sure I fully agree with thst I definitely dont fully disagree either.
But right now that isn’t how it is defined. Right now the schools are taking money, not following the law and failing some of their own childrenSeptember 13, 2022 9:15 am at 9:15 am #2123908
I’m referring to the former students; the 1% who end up as such people in Yale or Harvard are definitely not representative of the norm, and making it out to be as if they are is horribly inaccurate.
Mentioning that the majority are successful in business or blue collar work is a simple, demonstrable fact to present. They are also not illiterate; yiddish is a language and they use it efficiently.
You’re just parroting all of their talking points. You’re sounding like a MAGA supporter, just repeating whatever the times says as if it’s torah misinai.September 13, 2022 9:17 am at 9:17 am #2123911
Substantial equivalency was never defined or enforced; they left us alone because our community was doing just fine – far better than most public schools, in terms of income and community stability.
Mentioning the strength of the community is also important, because it is clear evidence that chasidishe education isn’t “brutal, religious moral study” as they claim, but rather the sum of the experience – though totally different from the way goyim see education – is effective at producing productive, contributing members of society with stable families, good income, and lots of tax payers who fund the salaries of these hateful antisemites.September 13, 2022 9:17 am at 9:17 am #2123914
The numbers are very clear – the chasidishe parent supports the public schools. The amount that they receive for their children dwarfs that which they give in taxes to public schools, so that children can be taught to change their genders and that all white people are racist.
The “billion” dollars is a hoax and total fake news. They’re losing, not taking. Do they mention the many hundreds of billions that chasidishe businesses pay in taxes to a system that they don’t benefits from?September 13, 2022 9:18 am at 9:18 am #2123916akupermaParticipant
1. Many Americans have trouble putting together a coherent sentence in English. What’ the hiddush?
2. Many Americans can’t do basic math without a calculator.
3. Many Americans are amazingly ignorant about science, social sciences and history.
4. Except for new immigrants and occasionally their children’s, Americans are infamously monolingual.
5. Almost all jobs for which a “fancy” secular education prepares you are closed to frum Yidden – even the modern Orthodox with their good secular educations are often forced to act secular to function in the workplace (consider people such as Jack Lew and Joe Lieberman who had to take off yarmulkes and adopt goyish names,among other things, in order to function – as Yaakov Lew or Yosef Lieberman, with beard and pe’os, we would never have heard of them).
Could we make our schools more cost effective? Probably. Class size should be increased, students should attend local schools they can walk to, and we should make use of existing shuls and cut back on dedicated and costly buildings. We can probably make use of distance education technology, especially for secular subject, with supervision. Boarding schools should only be for students from remote regions to small to support their own schools.
But the bottom line is that we are doing better than many if not most public (non-charter) schools in producing graduates who can support themselves. If the bigots attacking our schools were to apply the same standards to the government’s schools, they would be forced to start closing them down (perhaps outsourcing to private or charter schools). And we know from experience that if you focus on secular studies, you will have an “OTD” rate in excess of 90% (and at this point, it appears that over 99% of those Jews (defined by halacha) who attend secular schools are not Shabbos-observant by any halachic standard).September 13, 2022 9:19 am at 9:19 am #2123922
“They’re successful, and they are not harming any other part of klal yisroel in their ways – chasidim support many needy litvishe yidden, especially in eretz yisroel.”
Nice obfuscation. We are not discussing Satmar Bikur cholim or other chesseds that they do. We are discussing the fact that our Litvish yeshivas are being put into jeopardy because of the actions of the Chassidishe velt and we are the ones swooping in to save their (and because of them our) skin. Rabbis Reisman, Brudny and Bender are the ones who are being tied up into this and it is not because the government was having problems with Torah Vodaas, Mir Brooklyn or Darchei.
“And they’re very, very successful in business.”
Correct, but let’s not ignore the nice amount on food stamps.
Lastly, this whole thing regarding “respect”. No, I don’t respect everything they do just because they had great people. I don’t respect many of them missing zman tefilah. I don’t respect the derech halimud of many of them. I don’t respect how they handle being in the public eye and dealing with the government. I don’t respect their chinuch.
I do, however, respect their warmth, their avodah, and chassudim that they do.September 13, 2022 9:51 am at 9:51 am #2123938LostsparkParticipant
“ Some would argue drug addicts too have a right to education.
Moreover the reason WHY they are drop outs and nebachs, is because the system failed them, which is by design.”
I guess YVN should make a counter article where they visit a federal prison and interview felons who attended public schools. Obviously it’s the schools fault they are socially compromised and we should call this burden to the taxpayers out.September 13, 2022 9:51 am at 9:51 am #2123939
Spoken like a rabid marxist. VDA’L.
“Some would argue drug addicts too have a right to education.
Moreover the reason WHY they are drop outs and nebachs, is because the system failed them, which is by design.”
They have a right to education, however their failures are because of their drug addictions, not because of the “system”. Their education system works for the overwhelming majority of their students. There is no evidence to even consider that the failures, resulting in nebachs are greater in their system. Compare to many LWMO, where more than 50% are no longer shomer Shabbos, (vchol hanilveh al zeh) once they hit college. I cant speak to drug use other than what a coworker who had gone through such schools and he said it was “ubiquitous”. You want to talk about providing for those who are slipping or not doing well in the system because of whatever issue, those need to be addressed individually.September 13, 2022 9:54 am at 9:54 am #2123940
“Substantial equivalency was never defined or enforced”
And that is what some students , and parents are upset about !
EXACTLY it was the law, and not enforced
This part isnt true either
“and they are not harming any other part of klal yisroel in their ways”
Due to their inaction in 2019 they almost had all kids chinuch undermined.
“Mentioning that the majority are successful in business or blue collar work is a simple, demonstrable fact to present”
It is a fact, and it is simple but it has little to do with topic namely the lack of “basic education”
Now if you want to argue “basic education” in math/English is unimportant for the reasons you mention. . Go for it! As I said I’m not even sure I disagree. But that isn’t really the argument I’m hearing. ITs more of a distraction
“You’re just parroting all of their talking points.”
Was this directed at me?
What did I parrot from the Times?September 13, 2022 10:03 am at 10:03 am #2123962
It is a fallacy to state that the Chassidish Moisdos have a failing education system.
Their systems is well developed and they very successfully teach their children tons. Children come out knowing what they need to live life, including as a Jew. Additionally, these schools teach children responsibility for their community. With a focus on responsibility, and not just focus on “rights”.
SO the issue is not about education, it is about what the schools teach. And the DOE and the liberals clearly want to control that. No matter how good the education is.
And that is what Yaffed wants. Not to help anybody. That is complete and utter hogwash. Which is crystal clear from the Molesters public comments and statements.
It is an easy in to start with the Cassidim because they look different and even talk different. But the intention is to force all sort of anti Torah and anti Halachic subjects in all Yeshivas.
And that is why this is an issue. No Marxist, it is not the Chassidim’s fault. This has been the goal and they are the canaries in the mine for this.September 13, 2022 10:04 am at 10:04 am #2123966
Marx, I’m not obfuscating(you seem to like that word very much), I’m saying that chasidim are successful by every metric that society should care about. They are successful in the home, the family, the community, and in their dealings with other parts of the Jewish community.
You didn’t address the blatant bias in the times’ not addressing the overwhelming business success of the community. Not a word. Just drugs, rabbinic control, political clout, and poorly written english assignments. Why don’t they look at how public school children in the Bronx write english? they don’t. they don’t because that would be racist, to target black people and other “marginalized” groups.
The “taking money” figure was a total lie, as I showed above. You haven’t addressed that either.
They’re on food stamps because they can be. That money will be going to deadbeat dads, drug addicts, criminals, and other pieces of garbage. If it’s available, why not avail themselves of the money? They have large families, and even with a decent income, it’s not easy. I don’t think the majority are dependent on it though.September 13, 2022 10:40 am at 10:40 am #2123981
“Right now the schools are taking money, not following the law and failing some of their own children” – this is parroting the Times. It’s simply not true. Chasidim lose money to the government; what the yeshivos take (and reinvest in the community, in ways that the times doesn’t approve of) does not cover the losses that they suffer, in giving hard earned tax money to LGBT indoctrination camps, aka public schools.September 13, 2022 11:03 am at 11:03 am #2123984
I also had in mind ubiq, with the parroting statement – that the system failed them by design. That the system is designed to make jews fail in life.
It’s not. It’s designed to teach torah and prepare the majority for a life in business, and a minority for klei kodesh.September 13, 2022 11:04 am at 11:04 am #2123999
Honestly, AviraDeArah’s argument that once we let the state dictate, it will devolve into teaching all kinds of toeivos is a good argument. Clearly, the improvement, if necessary, must come from within and certainly not from the state. On that point we should all stand united.
There was a famous meme from long before Yaffed or any other sonei yisroel came along that showed a picture of a chossid and it said on the top “i baked my mother in the oven” and on the bottom it said “a cake.” This meme was popular because this is how so many of us speak and while cartoonishly playing on stereotypes, we all know exactly why the meme was popular. Certainly there are many excellent Gerrer yeshivas and others that teach secular studies on the level but its hard for me to believe that there is no problem to address (especially in Satmar).
But if the parents on the front lines do not see the need for improvement then there really is nothing to talk about. If there is to be change it will only come about if the parents want it and push for it.September 13, 2022 11:49 am at 11:49 am #2124021
For everyone proclaiming that Jewish education is “just fine”, what objective studies or reports can you present to support your position? It is an important enough question that any of the reputable organizations should be able to provide independently verified data.September 13, 2022 11:50 am at 11:50 am #2124014
besalel – agreed. You’re entitled to think that chasidim should teach more English; and if you’re chasidish, and you want to petition the change from within the community, al taharas hakodesh – go ahead! things change; the issue here is government control. And if we give in even a drop, we’ve lost.September 13, 2022 11:52 am at 11:52 am #2124015
“I’m not obfuscating(you seem to like that word very much)”
I only used it once in this thread. And you are obfuscating. They have caused harm to Klal yisrael because we now have to involved in a fight with the government about our education system because of them.
“They’re on food stamps because they can be. That money will be going to deadbeat dads, drug addicts, criminals, and other pieces of garbage. If it’s available, why not avail themselves of the money? They have large families, and even with a decent income, it’s not easy. I don’t think the majority are dependent on it though.”
I recommend you take a look at some of the metrics. I don’t know about majority but certainly a lot are.
It’s funny how Yaffed came from an ex-Chasid and not a Litvak. I wonder why.September 13, 2022 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #2124037
Thanks for the opportunity to clarify
I dont agree with the times. I was surprised that some of what I said was considered parroting
““Right now the schools are taking money, not following the law and failing some of their own children” – this is parroting the Times. It’s simply not true. Chasidim lose money to the government;”
I did not say they are net takers.take. bottom line is The government is fundign yeshiva education. Is it less that public school? sure . Doesnt change my point.
“what the yeshivos take (and reinvest in the community, in ways that the times doesn’t approve of) does not cover the losses that they suffer, in giving hard earned tax money to LGBT indoctrination camps, aka public schools.”
Not relevant though .
I also had in mind ubiq, with the parroting statement – that the system failed them by design. That the system is designed to make jews fail in life. It’s not. It’s designed to teach torah and prepare the majority for a life in business, and a minority for klei kodesh.”
YES! and nothing else. I never said “designed to fail in life” it prepares them very well. no question as You said majority for a life in business, and a minority for klei kodesh.” However for those few who want to be frei are stuck. You (ane even I) may view that as good. But that is how it is designed. As the kids say this is a feature not a bug.
Hope this helps
“For everyone proclaiming that Jewish education is “just fine”, what objective studies or reports can you present to support your position? ”
what kind of data do you have in mind?September 13, 2022 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #2124036
AviraDeArah: so now that we are on the same page, I am going to put the question to you. If you were a parent of a child in the system would you want the school to improve on English, Math and/or Science? Or any other subject? From within, of course – no state involvement. Or do you see no room for improvement?September 13, 2022 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2124047
“It’s funny how Yaffed came from an ex-Chasid and not a Litvak”
I refer to my comment about failure being because of their own failings.
All his multiple siblings are thrilled with the existing system.
I expect you to reference footsteps YMS as well.September 13, 2022 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #2124068
@ ubiquin The most obvious would be standardized test scores for secular subjects. A study of a representative sample of yeshivos that offer limited hours of secular education, so that the results accurately reflect the level of instruction being provided. The must be available somewhere; we have more of an interest in the answer than the NYTSeptember 13, 2022 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #2124073
I would send my children to schools that work for them, and are in keeping with one of the valid mesoros. I do not think i am capable, nor do i plan on raising my children in the satmar community.
I speak English in my house, and my mesorah is that it’s best for most boys and all girls to graduate high school, unless the boy is in 10th grade, outstanding in learning, and will undoubtedly use the time spent on secular studies to learn.
Sara schnirer changed chinuch for women; she gained the approval of the gedolei hador. If chasidim want to present their case to their rabbonim – by all means they can. I don’t see why they have to change, as I’ve been saying – it works. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. They don’t need to cause an upheaval just to accommodate people who choose to go off the derech – that shouldn’t be an option regardless of circumstances.
If there’s anything i think the chasidishe world needs, and I’m not in a position to lecture them, it’s mental health awareness. It’s something we all are learning about, in all parts of klal yisroel. It can be mussar/chasidus based, it can be from heimishe sources, vut in all of our yeshivos there is a need for such things. But it does need to come from within, and it can save many neshomos.September 13, 2022 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #2124075
“They don’t need to cause an upheaval just to accommodate people who choose to go off the derech – that shouldn’t be an option regardless of circumstances.”
How about changing because you have jeopardized all of Klal’s Yisrael’s yeshivas in NY?September 13, 2022 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #2124098
ymr – Standardized tests are only proof if they’re actually taken. I’ve taught title 1 classes in williamsburg chadorim – they do not take the tests. They fill in any answer at random, to get through it. That’s because when I’m teaching them, tests aren’t part of the curriculum.
The Times (and you ) did not verify this basic, simple observation. Don’t just look at data – ask the kids and teachers about the standardized tests, and you will understand why nobody passes – it’s because nobody’s taking them.
The girls do take them, and they are not below the public school average, even the Times had to admit.September 13, 2022 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #2124099
I guarantee that if a hispanic “latinx” community wanted to keep their kids speaking spanish, and have a spanish speaking school, they would not be treated this way. They would be appreciated as diverse, etc.. no matter what the results of their system would be.
But if Jews speak yiddish and hebrew, and run businesses, and don’t father children and run away….that’s not ok.September 13, 2022 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #2124105
@ ADA Girls and boys schools are different in the Orthodox world. They have different administrations, different priorities, different staff, and different expectations from their students.
An objective study would involve boys yeshivos with limited hours of instruction.September 13, 2022 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #2124112
ubiq: “However for those few who want to be frei are stuck.”
That’s absolutely the way it should be. And must remain.September 13, 2022 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #2124111
To clarify, standardized aren’t the only it necessarily the best way of evaluating a school. But it does give an objective measure of performance. Saying that “most of the kids turn out OK” is subjective, and misses the point. What metric are we using to support the claim that yeshiva secular education is performing adequately?September 13, 2022 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #2124106
“The most obvious would be standardized test scores for secular subjects.”
I guess I misunderstood wha tyou meant by “For everyone proclaiming that Jewish education is “just fine”, ”
I thought you meant in the sense that Avira was using it, that overall Chasidim are doing fine “I don’t see why they have to change, as I’ve been saying – it works.”
The point I am making that keeps getting lost is.
Does it matter if they are successful.
The State requires schools teach math/English to elementary school
Chasidim are not.
That is the gist of the article .
The responses are manifold
One of the most common Reponses is “I don’t see why they have to change, as I’ve been saying – it works.” In other words Who needs math/English (otherwise this doesn’t work as a response)
To which I reply, that is the requirement, if you don’t like it either go to court get them to drop that requirement and/or don’t take government money (the fact that you pay taxes and are net payers) is irrelevant .
THIS is the issue that is being overlooked. I f the law requires schools teach Math/English. should schools be allowed to break the law?
And Does it matter if parents approve (this is waht I meant in my first comment, that Besalel took as a “given” it isnt a given at all, its the crux of the issue ? and how many parents do you need all parents approval? 90 %? how do we know wha t the Parents want. donl;t say they choose to send there. Its not like, well if an Aroni school doesn’t offer enough English, just choose a Zali school, that isnt how it works
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.