Can't Eat By In-Laws Who Eat Gebrochts on Pesach

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  • #617628

    Joseph
    Participant

    Even if the in-laws make a special non-gebrochts dish, their keilim are gebrochts.

    I figured there must be someone in the coffee room with the same problem, so I told my friend I’d ask for him. Should he being an entire set of dishes and plastic paper goods for the second days to his in-laws and do their own cooking?

    I’d imagine those who married a Sephardic wife have the same problem with their in-laws eating kitniyos.

    #1149824

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I’d imagine those who married a Sephardic wife have the same problem with their in-laws eating kitniyos.

    Ive been told by people in Israel that Kitnoyot is sort of falling by the wayside there because there is alot of intermarriage between Sephardim and Ashkenazim in all communities except the charedi ones.

    Its not so easy to go to your Mother-In-Law and not eat her food and not let the grandchildren eat Savta’s cooking

    #1149825

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Its not so easy to go to your Mother-In-Law and not eat her food and not let the grandchildren eat Savta’s cooking

    People who are BTs do that all the time. They don’t say, well, my in-laws eat bacon and it’s not so easy to go to your mother-in-law and not eat her cooking.

    #1149826

    Sam2
    Participant

    Both are Minhagim. Shalom Bayis probably trumps (relatively) late Minhagim. And even if it doesn’t (and I understand completely why it doesn’t), it would seem too much of a stretch to extend it to Blios in the Keilim (especially when it’s explicit in Poskim that we’re not Choshesh for Blios of Kitniyos).

    #1149827

    oomis
    Participant

    According to my Rov, who discussed this with us extensively in a special pre-Pesach shiur, Ashkenazim who eat in Sephardic homes absolutely MAY eat off the keilim that had contained Kitniyos. They just may not eat the actual kitniyos. Kitniyos as an issur, is an Ashkenazic minhag that has become universally accepted by Jews of that descent, but it is NOT chometz, nor should the keilim be considered as assur.

    #1149828

    MDG
    Participant

    “I’d imagine those who married a Sephardic wife have the same problem with their in-laws eating kitniyos. “

    According to the Rama (forgot the siman), if some Kitniot fall into a pot of KFP food, the food is mutar. From that we can deduce that keilim are mutar.

    #1149829

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I had this situation. I asked my Rav, and you should do the same.

    #1149830

    oomis
    Participant

    BTW, if one has such a problem, in terms of Gebrochts/non-gebrochts, perhaps that young COUPLE should invite those parents to THEIR home for Pesach. Problem solved. And it is only an issue if the HUSBAND’S parents only eat non-gebrochts, because a wife takes on her husband’s family minhagim.

    My son-in-law only eats shmurah matzah the whole Pesach. We only eat it for the sedarim. When they come to us for yom tov, whether first or last days, I prepare all their meals with Shmurah farfel and matzah meal in those side dishs that I normally make with regular matzah. It is NOT a problem for my keilim, according to my Rov. We asked the shailah. I cannot believe that it would be different for gebrochts/non-gebrochts, but that’s why we have to ask Daas Torah our Shailahs.

    #1149831

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    perhaps that young COUPLE should invite those parents to THEIR home for Pesach. Problem solved.

    Many young couples live in small apartments and don’t even walk in an entire Pesach.

    #1149832

    Joseph
    Participant

    Does anyone have experience with a real solution (other than just eat off their keilim anyways)?

    #1149833

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If I had a son-in-law who was makpid on gebrokts and keilim, I would kasher or buy new keilim, and perhaps designate some for gebrokts (and we would eat any hot gebrokts on disposable dishes).

    I could give up my kneidlach (or the incont of having a special pit for them) for shalom bayis.

    #1149834

    dovrosenbaum
    Participant

    People who are makpid to not eat gebrokts will often not eat off the same kelim. If that’s their choice, maybe let them bring their own food. I don’t see why people who keep perfectly KFP homes and who brok should have to do backflips to accommodate “machmirim.”

    There’s the minhag not to mish. Let the machmirim not mish and feed themselves.

    In my family, sadly, this became a big issue. I have a female relative who married a Lubavitcher and they don’t eat ever by us for Pesach or Shavuos because they won’t eat off cholov stam kelim or kelim that came into contact with gebroks.

    #1149835

    Sam2
    Participant

    Joseph: Why is eating off the Keilim anyway not a real solution? If it’s Muttar, then it’s the perfect solution. I’m not so familiar with different Chassidish Hanhagos, so maybe they’re more Machmir on Gebrochts than other Ashkenazim are on Kitniyos, but Kitniyos Keilim isn’t an issue. It’s an explicit Rama (Darchei Moshe) and is quoted by many Poskim, especially contemporary ones (as this problem is now much more widespread with the intermingling of Ashkenazim and Sefardim in E”Y nowadays.

    #1149836

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Hot plates can be kashered for pesach. The process is listed on the star-k’s website. The gebrokts avoider could get his own hot plates for cooking, his own pans and plates and essentially make his own kitchen. As someone mentioned earlier, BTs and gerim are all too used to this kind of problem.

    I agree with Joseph that “eat off the keilim anyway” is a non-solution.

    Also, for the record, the minhag of kitniyos trumps any concerns about shalom bayis any day. Avoiding kitniyos is an extremely important minhag, it is not at all comparable to gebrokts.

    #1149837

    mw13
    Participant

    My personal minhag is not to eat gebrokts, but not to be makpid on gebrokts keillim. However, if one who does have the minhag not to eat from gebrokts keillim, I don’t think it is appropriate for them to have to compromise on their practices. And as DY insinuated, I think most normal in-laws wouldn’t mind giving up on gebrokts if that’s the only way their family can spend Pessach together.

    dovrosenbaum:

    I don’t see why people who keep perfectly KFP homes and who brok should have to do backflips to accommodate “machmirim.”

    They don’t, unless they happen to want those said “machmirim” to spend Pessach with them.

    #1149838

    The little I know
    Participant

    If a couple has a harmonious relationship, this is a hurdle that can be overcome. Problems are resolvable. It is critical to take care to not permit such issues to become a divisive wedge between a husband and wife. Some ideas were suggested in earlier comments, and I can think of others. Get creative. Ask a Rov, not just for a psak, but how to settle the issue.

    It is recorded from quite a few gedolim and tzaddikim of earlier generations, including both chassidishe and litvishe persuasions, that one can justify increasing chumros relevant to Pesach, but not to accept kulos. However, one must be able to distinguish between a halacha, a halacha based chumro, and a minhag. The differences, especially as would pertain to a couple with differences in practice are significant. A good Rov would know the differences.

    AYLOR (Ask Your Local Orthodox Rabbi)

    #1149839

    lesschumras
    Participant

    In Israel it is difficult for American olim as many KP products contain kitniyos.

    One of the solutions proposed by some poskim is logical, The whole issue surrounding kitniyos arose because of life in agrarian Europe hundreds of years ago. It was difficult to distinguish raw chometz from kitniyos and the fear was chometz might have gotten mixed in.

    With todays processed foods, that have valid KP hashgas, that concern no longer applies. Often, the only way you know that kitniyos is in the processed product is by the label. They have said that these types of processed kitniyos can be eaten by olim. It’s logical and makes sense

    #1149840

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    LC,

    That is hardly the only reason for kitniyos.

    Plenty of Ashkenazim are able to avoid kitniyos without a problem. I don’t see why a ten minute discussion with someone who already knows which hechsherim can be used by Ashkenazim shouldn’t suffice.

    #1149841

    147
    Participant

    We live in the throw away society, so simply procure some fancy paper plates for the son in law who won’t eat of your regular Pesach Keilim, despite the Halocho being that so long a the vessel was washed from Kitnios or/& Gebrokts, can be utilized by the son in law who won’t eat Kitnios nor Gebrokts. …. Meanwhile we enjoyed tasty Matzo Balls @Sedorim and over the 1st days & over Chol haMoed.

    #1149842

    mw13
    Participant

    LC:

    The whole issue surrounding kitniyos arose because of life in agrarian Europe hundreds of years ago… that concern no longer applies.

    That’s what you think.

    From the back of a recently purchased box of Cheerios, reprinted without permission:

    “SAME CHEERIOS, simply, GLUTEN FREE

    The taste you love has always come with oats that are naturally gluten free. We’re simply making sure they stay that way.

    IT STARTS with FAMILY

    When Phil, a member of the Cheerios team for over 50 years, found out that his daughter-in-law couldn’t eat gluten, he knew his team had to find a way to make sure every family, including his, could share breakfast together. Since oats are naturally gluten free, the only problem was finding a way to make sure they didn’t get mixed up with anything else.

    THE JOURNEY from FIELD to BOWL

    Most of the farmers who grow oats for Cheerios also grow wheat and barley, which aren’t gluten free. Sometimes, those grains get mixed together in the fields or on the farm, so, to make Cheerios gluten free, we had to separate them. It took a lot of late nights and hard work, but we finally discovered a way to sort the other grains out of our oats.”

    #1149843

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    One could (but shouldn’t) argue that, thanks to clocks, we shouldn’t have to keep a second day of yom tov in the exile. Obviously, this argument would be absurd and laughed at. It is beyond my comprehension why people don’t treat avoiding kitniyos with similar gravity. We don’t logic our way out of minhagim.

    Sometimes I tell people that the one positive thing the Conservative movement has done is served as a warning against this logic-based heter creating. The Conservative movement in America just “allowed” kitniyos. Now there will be people thinking they can just buy a bag of rice and call it a day, not realizing how much effort and care Sphardim put in before they eat kitniyos.

    I read in an old halacha article here on YWN that one source says that not even Moshiach will have the authority to undo the kitniyos minhag. Does anyone have that source?

    #1149844

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    In AMERICA its not so difficult to avoid Kitnoyot, Its in Israel that it is a problem

    #1149845

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    How is it a problem in Israel? There are way more frum ashkenazim in Israel than in America.

    (Frum includes not eating kitniyos. An ashkenazi who eats kitniyos is not frum)

    #1149846

    yehudayona
    Participant

    Although Sefardim are the majority in Israel, there are plenty of frum Ashkenazim. I find it hard to believe that it’s difficult for Ashkenazim to find food that has appropriate hashgacha. I could ask my daughter, but she’s probably asleep by now.

    In Chutz L’Aretz, many who don’t eat gebrokts make a point of eating gebrokts on the last day. Do they use separate keilim? If not, how can they use them for the first days the following year?

    #1149847

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, I was discussing Eretz Yisroel.

    #1149848

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I was in Israel for Pesach in the past and did not find it difficult. Items which contain Kitniyot were labeled ?? ?????? ??????. So if one takes the effort to check the label, which should always be done, it isn’t difficult at all.

    #1149849

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Mw13, read my post again. The product has to be verified by reliable kashgocha as kosher for Pesach

    #1149850

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    In the US many stores do not carry Kitnyot. I dont think you will find much Kosher for Passover Kitinoyt in Borough Park or Williamsburg.

    Stores that do sell it have a big sign over the entire area saying Kiniyot where you cannot miss it.

    They do not do this in Israel making it more confusing. Especially when you buy lots of stuff for Pesach, you really cannot check every product otherwise you will never leave the store. The part that says Kiniyot might be in very small print that many cannot easily find or see

    #1149851

    Sam2
    Participant

    NCB: It’s a Gemara in Yevamos by doing Chalitzah with a Sandal, and the same should apply here. Once something is Nahug, not even Eliyahu can be Mevatel it.

    #1149852

    yehudayona
    Participant

    ZD, every kosher store I’ve shopped in here in the U.S. has a big sign saying that you should check every package to make sure it’s kosher l’Pesach. Have you personally shopped for KFP food in Israel or are you surmising it’s more difficult than in the U.S.?

    #1149853

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Ive shopped in both. They do not clearly mark Kitniyot like they do in the US. Nobody checks every package. Its not possible. Ever try shopping with a bunch of screaming kids or the store being so crowded you can barely move

    (I am the only driver in the house so I do the food shopping because its easier)

    #1149854

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It is very irresponsible to buy without checking the package carefully.

    If that’s the hardship in not keeping kitniyos in Eretz Yisroel, that you need to actually *gasp* check the package, we define hardship very differently.

    #1149855

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    I don’t have this problem, as my in-laws eat gebrokts (as I do) as do both my brothers in law.

    However, if one of my kids married a “non-gebroktser,” I don’t see why we wouldn’t designate a few pots/pans at the start of Pesach as for their food. Small price to pay to have family with us.

    The Wolf

    #1149856

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    My father doesn’t eat gebrokst. My father in law does. Keilim are not an issue. Gebrokst is really a silly chumra/minhag. Hataras nedarim should solve the problem. It is otherwise very easy to work out the technical details. You know, ask, “is this gebrokst?” And if the answer is yes, and you so proclive, dont eat it…

    #1149857

    charliehall
    Participant

    That this even gets discussed shows that we don’t know the difference between an issur and a minhag. 🙁

    “Most of the farmers who grow oats for Cheerios also grow wheat and barley, which aren’t gluten free. Sometimes, those grains get mixed together in the fields or on the farm, so, to make Cheerios gluten free, we had to separate them.”

    Wheat, barley, and oats are three of the Five Grains. They have nothing to do with kitniyot. The reason we Ashkenazim don’t eat kitniyot is because it is one of our longstanding minhagim, not because there is any issue of contamination of rice or beans with one of the Five Grains.

    #1149858

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think it’s pretty offensive to call a minhag kept by a large portion of klal Yisroel “silly”.

    #1149859

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Kitniyos Keilim isn’t an issue”

    My wife and I have longstanding custom to eat a kitniyot lunch on Erev Pesach, cooked on our Pesadik kelim. I would even cook a kitniyot dish on Pesach itself on those same for any Sefardic Jew who asked for one.

    Kal v’chomer gebrockts kelim should be no issue.

    Now lets move on to real issues in our community.

    #1149860

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t think the kal vachomer works. Kitniyos is based on minhag, and the minhag was never on keilim. Matzah sh’ruyah was based on a chashash of chometz, so keilim would be assur.

    Why isn’t a halachic discussion a real issue?

    #1149861

    Joseph
    Participant

    If someone conforms to the shitta that it is not permitted to eat gebrochts, and DY outlined the reason for it right above, then it makes no sense to eat from keilim used with gebrochts. It is contradictory and the gebrochts keilim are assur for the same reason eating gebrochts are assur.

    #1149862

    Mammele
    Participant

    I’d suggest going with disposable aluminum pans for cooking or roasting most dishes. The “half size deep” pan is quite roomy yet fits in the fridge, and there’s a matching foil lid. You can double up pans for support (and easily reuse the bottoms later). Less pots to wash will be an added bonus. If the family is very large and disposables are not practical, if you come early enough before the second days of Yom Tov you can help with the cooking. You can then split up the same dish before cooking, large pot for everybody else and disposable pan for your own family. (For example chicken soup, 3 carrots here, one carrot there…)

    And many do eat gebrokts the last day of Pesach, so if that’s the case it makes it easier as there are less meals for which to keep track.

    Good luck!

    #1149863

    mw13
    Participant

    frumnotyeshivish:

    Gebrokst is really a silly chumra/minhag. Hataras nedarim should solve the problem.

    I join DY in thinking that it is offensive, presumptuous, and frankly just ridiculous for anyone in today’s generation to disparage a minhag that vast portions of Klal Yisroel have been adhering to for over a thousand years. Who do you think you are?

    Tell me, do you think hataras nedarim should also solve the “problem” of second day yomtov?

    charliehall:

    Wheat, barley, and oats are three of the Five Grains. They have nothing to do with kitniyot.

    You are missing the forest for the trees. The point here is that cross-contamination of different grains is still very much an issue in today’s day and age. That all of the grains mentioned in the Cheerios story happen to have the same Halachic status is irrelevant.

    The reason we Ashkenazim don’t eat kitniyot is because it is one of our longstanding minhagim, not because there is any issue of contamination of rice or beans with one of the Five Grains.

    That’s what you say. The Mishnah Berurua, however, says something else:

    “So how and why did the custom emerge to forbid Kitniyos? The reason why kitniyos were forbidden, was on account of a protective measure. The Mishnah Berurah (O.C. 453:6, 464:5) provides a few explanations:

    (1) Kitniyos are harvested and processed in the same way that chametz is. The masses would confuse the two and come to permit grains for themselves.

    (2) Kitniyos can also be ground and baked, just like chametz, and people might come to permit chametz grains.

    (3) The Kitniyos themselves may have actual chametz mixed in. All three reasons are therefore protective in nature. The prohibition was strictly limited to consumption; one may own and derive benefit from kitniyos on Pesach.”

    (Quoted from R’ Yair Hoffman’s article last year on this subject.)

    Now lets move on to real issues in our community.

    Some of us think Halacha shailos *are* real issues.

    #1149864

    Avi K
    Participant

    MW, you are correct (although it should be pointed out that Rav Yehiel of Paris disparaged it). However, it is also offensive, presumptuous, and frankly just ridiculous for anyone in any generation to look for chumrot on a minhag. Not an issue d’Oraita, not an issur d’rabbanan but a minhag. This is especially true when it comes up against issues like shelom bayit. In fact, I heard that Rav Zalman Baruch Melamed said that he would even go so far as to allow an Ashkenazi eating by a Sephardi to push aside the kitniyot and eat the rest of the food (on Shabbat push aside the non-kitniyot – don’t try to keep a minhag by doing a melacha d’Oraita).

    Unfortunately, this has become a burning issue (someone once said that if “lo tignove” were a chumra on a minhag people would be completely honest) with the machmirs denigrating poskim who dare to rule leniently. The result is that many people decide that they cannot deal with almost everything being labeled “for those who eat kitniyot” despite major questions as to the halachic validity of this statement and decide to jettison the whole minhag.

    #1149865

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I would venture to say that making light of Halacha and its discussions and making light of others minhagim is very much one of our greatest communal issues.

    Insisting that one’s adoption of a Kula or crazy left wing theory is now the lead everyone else is to beholden is the type of arrogance that the OO is foisting On ??? ?????. This is a terrible communal issue. And needs to be rooted out.

    #1149866

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    This might have changed in the last few years, but in the US the major hashghcahs did not give them on Kitiyot as a policy to avoid confusion. So you would never see a O-U P or Star-K P. This might have changed very recently but Im not sure

    #1149867

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    However, it is also offensive, presumptuous, and frankly just ridiculous for anyone in any generation to look for chumrot on a minhag.

    Yet, that is precisely what was done by some acharonim, ??? ??? ????? ???.

    #1149868

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Insisting that one’s adoption of a Kula or crazy left wing theory is now the lead everyone else is to beholden is the type of arrogance that the OO is foisting On ??? ?????. This is a terrible communal issue. And needs to be rooted out.

    While I agree with you in principle, I have to say that I’ve seen this happen in the other direction (where someone insists that everyone has to follow their chumra) far more often.

    The Wolf

    #1149869

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Its one thing if someone keeps a chumra and it doesnt really affect anyone else. However in the Gebrochts case since the market for Passover food is small and short (People dont even want passover food after pesach even at a discount) so companies are forced to make only non-gebroachs items and make every else pay.

    While the market for non-gebroachs may only be 20-30% of the passover food market, the market is so small its not really worth ignoring it.

    I am forced to pay extra for this chumra no matter what I think of it. You cannot really avoid keeping this chumra even if you choose not too

    #1149870

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Everyone seems to have ignored or misrepresented my position. What the ruling was that it was muttarvto eat kitniyos in Israel if : a. It was contained in a processed product. B. The kitniyos was indistinguishable C. The product had a valid kosher for Pesach hashgacha.There is no chsash of mixing with chametz

    All the issues raised by the Mishna Brura are negated by these requirements. Nisht, if you feel that this represents wild eyed, lefty kulos, well, that is your problem

    BTW, S per Rabbi Blumenkrantz Pesach sefer, gebrocht does not appear anywhere before the Achronim, so it’s not an ancient minhag

    #1149871

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, potato starch is cheaper than matzo meal, and nobody’s forcing you to buy anything (except perhaps matzo, wine, meat, etc.).

    #1149872

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    I call that a load hogwash.

    No one is making you pay extra for anything.

    In addition, you don’t want 30% of the market to have products available?

    You want distributors to take a loss on products by cutting out 30% of the market? (Not sure where you get that statistic from anyway).

    You haven’t demonstrated that the cost of gebrokts cost more.

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