Carlebach Kabbalas Shabbos
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February 17, 2011 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #595092showerzingerMember
What does the velt feel about having one? In general? When you plan on having one? When your oven went off before L’cha Dodi starts?February 17, 2011 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #742483charliehallParticipant
I go to one almost every Friday night. It is a beautiful and moving way to bring in Shabat.February 17, 2011 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #742484
In the shul I daven at Friday nights, there is a guy who will always do the Carlebach nusach if he davens for the amud. I am the gabbai at the minyan, and most of the people have asked me not to put him up there anymore – or to at least schedule Carlebach weeks so that they can daven somewhere else.February 17, 2011 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #742485
I had a feeling this was an inflammatory OP that would result in loshon hora.. JMOFebruary 17, 2011 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #742486showerzingerMember
always here- Not at all intended to be inflammatory or cause loshon hora Just wanna know how people feel about it.February 17, 2011 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #742487apushatayidParticipant
I think it is beautiful to bring in shabbos with heartfelt singing. The Carlebach nusach is wonderful, but I’m not picky, any heartfelt singing works for me.February 17, 2011 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #742488
oh, ok.. sorry, I mistakenly caught a ‘bad vibe’February 17, 2011 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #742489bptParticipant
One of the best experiences I’ve had. But its gotta be with the right chevrah. Ponytails, faded jeans, plaid shirts.February 17, 2011 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #742490
feif un: why??February 17, 2011 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #742491600 Kilo BearMember
We had someone here start Mizmor leDovid using the Carlebach “tune” every Friday night. Why they let him do it is beyond me; Carlebach means nothing in this part of the world, but as I figured it was not worth a fight.
The novelty burned out after three weeks, and if our Carlebach fan (who just likes the music anyway) has the amud or if someone else decides to do it, no one pays attention and he’s basically singing to himself. When Shabbosim start later no one will want to put up with it anymore anyway.
editedFebruary 17, 2011 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #742492TumsMember
What tune and whatever is a Carlebach Kabbalas Shabbos?February 17, 2011 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #742493
“(I am the only one in the community who actually had the un-zechus to see Carlebach in action.)”
R’Shlomo, a’h, was a very sweet neshama & an acquaintance of mine & my husband. while we may not agree with how he held, that’s a very mean-spirited comment … but, of course, you’re entitled to your opinion.February 17, 2011 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #742494TheGoqParticipant
I enjoy friday night davening very much, when i was growing up my father didnt sing zemiros and i felt i missed out , singing and music can definetly draw one closer to Hashem.As to Carlebach specifically once in a while i think it is a real treat.February 17, 2011 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #742495
rabbiofberlin: Because it adds quite a bit of time to davening, and many people aren’t interested in a drawn out davening. It’s one thing if there’s a good baal tefilah, but for a Carlebach davening, they’re not interested.
Personally, I’m not a Carlebach fan. Many of his slow songs sound like funeral marches, and most of his songs sound the same.
When I was in yeshiva, there was some debate as to whether guys should listen to Carlebach. R’ Moshe’s teshuvah in the Igros on it was brought up. One Rebbe in the yeshiva told us that his Rebbe, R’ Mendel Kaplan zt”l had addressed the issue years before. He said that halachicly, there is no issur to listen to Carlebach music (except for the albums where he has women singing), but that listening to his music would cause you to get depressed.February 17, 2011 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #742496
“but that listening to his music would cause you to get depressed”
foolish comment…February 17, 2011 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #742497TumsMember
The fact that it is even a shaila whether to listen to Carlebach, itself is a statement.February 17, 2011 8:42 pm at 8:42 pm #742498
mikehall: you say it’s foolish, but it wasn’t my opinion – it was R’ Mendel Kaplan’s opinion. Do you even know who R’ Mendel Kaplan was?February 17, 2011 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #742500
this should be no surprise, I’m aqainst any form of davening that transgresses the rules of nussach. The Carlebach style of devotion falls into that category. Moreover, it’s peurile.February 17, 2011 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #742501
(I’m sure you meant ‘puerile’)February 17, 2011 9:00 pm at 9:00 pm #742502
Tums: maybe so, but R’ Moshe states clearly that there is no issur in listening to it. If asking is a sign that something isn’t necessarily “kosher”, then we’re in big trouble – any heter written down shouldn’t be followed.February 17, 2011 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #742503apushatayidParticipant
How did the bears mean spirited, outright lashon hara get through our esteemed moderators?February 17, 2011 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #742505YW Moderator-80Member
i think being makpid on nusach is jejuneFebruary 17, 2011 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #742507mamashtakahMember
Our shule has a Carlebach minyan every week. When we first got here, I always went. Now I’ve drifted away a bit. My oldest daughter loves it, so when she’s home from midrasha, I go with her. Otherwise I generally go to another minyan.
The Carlebach minyan is packed, though, every week except when people go away in August.February 17, 2011 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #742508
i think being makpid on nusach is jejune
Even in February?February 17, 2011 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #742509
allow me to add my two cents to this thread.
There is no more ‘freiliche’ kabbolos shabbos than a “carlebach kabbolos shabbos’ .Everyone gets up and dances and it is the most wonderful experience. The davening is long BECAUSE people love it so much. I can see why it might be difficult to daven every shabbos in the full nusach but to do this from time to time is the most uplifting experience. if you want to have your heart sing, go a Yehuda green concert when he sings R’shlomo’s niggunim. if you don’t ,then your neshomo has a problem. remember, the “shaar haneginah” is right next to the “shaar hakovod”.
As far as r’moshe’s teshuvah: first of all, R’shlomo’s name ws never mentioned. I actually know who asked this question and it was clear that there was absolutely no problem singing his niggunim. so, please , if you don’t like his nuggunim or him, you are entitled to your opinion but it is no coincidence that tens of thousands of people sing his niggunim today and celebrate Kabbolos Sahbbos with his nussach .( sorry, cantoresq)February 17, 2011 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #742510
To those who consider nussach a mere anachronism worthy of consignment to ash heaps of history, answer this question: Are you similarly nonchalant and glib about trop? Why not? Whither goest nussach ultimately goes trop.February 17, 2011 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #742511simchashachaimMember
HOWEVER, one should not only be focusing on the tune. This is a huge problem that comes up when dealing with a Carlibach minyan. Some (or most) people, just go for the singing, which is probably halachikly not so pashut. When doing carlibach, one should pay attention to the words and their meanings while listening/singing along.
But also one has to take into acount of other people/family members.
If other family members are not into it, than why put them through tzarus?
If one is having guests over, it may not be smart to go to a carlibach minyan (unless they come with you) because you will probably keep your guests waiting.February 17, 2011 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #742512simchashachaimMember
Also, there is no better carlibach minyan than those that are packed with people who all want to be there!February 17, 2011 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #742513well meaning busy bodyMember
Just for a laugh
This goes abck many years. Someone sang a Carlebach niggun in Vishnitz-Monsey. As usual a Knai pointed it out the Rebbe.
The Rebbe who of couse had no idea who Carlaebach was asked
Is he makpid?February 17, 2011 11:22 pm at 11:22 pm #742514bptParticipant
“listening to his music would cause you to get depressed”
if you call crying by “shvartze volf” getting depressed, I guess crying when you say tehilim or U’nesaneh Toikef is also depressing.
Should we ban that? How about the tunes used by a chuppah or mitzvah tanze?
Us chassidim have no problem crying. It cleans out your mind and heart from what’s bothering you.
Then we move forward with simcha.February 18, 2011 12:16 am at 12:16 am #742515
well meaning- i heard that story too and the rebbe -zol gezund zain- said: (in yiddish) vus-ehr lost nisht zingen?”February 18, 2011 12:16 am at 12:16 am #742516
To those who consider nussach a mere anachronism worthy of consignment to ash heaps of history, answer this question: Are you similarly nonchalant and glib about trop? Why not? Whither goest nussach ultimately goes trop.
Although I am not from that group (I think nusach is important), I neither see nor anticipate anyone reading from the Torah to a Carlebach tune.February 18, 2011 12:17 am at 12:17 am #742517
bpt- i am all with you on this. many nigunnim make one cry but they are tears of joy and bring out the most inner feelings of our heart.February 18, 2011 12:36 am at 12:36 am #742518
Daas Yochid, why not?February 18, 2011 12:52 am at 12:52 am #742519canineMember
What does a Carlbach Minyan do? How is it different than a normal minyan?February 18, 2011 1:55 am at 1:55 am #742520
” Whither goest nussach ultimately goes trop.”
Fact: if you go to Moshav Mevo Modi’in, the moshav that R’Shlomo started over 36+ years ago, the epitome of a Carlebach Minyan, you will hear the layning the same as in any other shul.
I had the zechus to be there for a Shabbos back then when R’Shlomo was there, & have been there numerous times subsequently… the most recent was almost 2 yrs ago.
I find your comment uninformed, ignorant-sounding, & an insult! :/February 18, 2011 2:08 am at 2:08 am #742521yogiboobooMember
my shul has one once every other month (i think). they are actually having one this shabbos.
When I was in seminary I had the privelage to go to the “Moshav” where Reb Shlomo lived its known as moshav modiin but everyone just calls it the moshav. I loved it there. I used to be thrilled every time I could go there. Although many people dont agree with what they hold or do its still a beautiful place. Anyways, the davening that they do there is just beautiful. there is also one point where we dance during kabbalas shabbos(seprately of course) but its just awesome!!! until you experience a shabbos like that there is nothing like it!February 18, 2011 2:34 am at 2:34 am #742522ItcheSrulikMember
cantoresq: There is a very simple difference between nussach and trop, namely that there are certain parts of the nussach that are left as — to misappropriate a computer term — user defined, such as Kel adon. Kabbolas shabbos should definitely count as one of those considering that the nussach you are so concerned about is actually older than the tefillah itself!
I find Carlebach kabbolas shabbos very moving, especially after a long week. The only problem is that some people, particularly young guys who are not used to kabollas shabbos being lively, get carried away with having a good time and ruin the mood for the people who come for dvekus.February 18, 2011 2:43 am at 2:43 am #742523
Daas Yochid, why not?
Do you mean why I don’t foresee trop going the way of nusach?February 18, 2011 4:36 am at 4:36 am #742524
I find your comment uninformed, ignorant-sounding, & an insult! :/
Precisely my feelings about Carlebach davenings.February 18, 2011 4:43 am at 4:43 am #742525cherrybimParticipant
I feel sorry for those who can’t experience a wonderful, delightful, meaningful kabbalas shabbos without Carlebach.February 18, 2011 6:38 am at 6:38 am #742526mamashtakahMember
What does a Carlbach Minyan do? How is it different than a normal minyan?
Many of the Tehillim are sung out loud, together, to tunes composed by Reb Carlebach. The last few psukim of the Tehillim not sung are sung out loud together. Lecha Dodi is sung, together, to a usually up-beat tune. A few of the psukim between Barchu and the Amida are sung out loud. V’Shamru and Va’Yachulu are sung out loud. Those davening nusach Sfard sing Mizmor L’David out loud. There’s hand clapping, table banging, and some dancing thrown in as well.
It’s a very exuberant, up-beat davening. It takes (in our shule) about an hour and 10 or 15 minutes, which is a bit longer than the regular minyan.
As I mentioned previously, I can’t do it every week anymore. I go when my daughter is home, because she loves it.February 18, 2011 9:08 am at 9:08 am #742527truth be toldMember
I find your comment uninformed, ignorant-sounding, & an insult! :/
Ignorant-sounding and uninformed? Hmm, are you the only one who may insult?February 18, 2011 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #742528bombmaniacParticipant
i think what cantoresq means to say is that he is qualified to finally settle the nussach debate that has been raging for longer than his grandparents have or had been alive. hes is being presumptuous. simple as that.
as for carlebach shabasos. they are beautiful…if and only if they ae done for teh right reasons. i had a taaneh on them a while ago and i still do because a lot of the attendees are there not because of tefillah, but because of carlebach. kind of like how unfortunately there were a couple of YU students at a shmulie boteach and christopher hitchins debate for christopher hitchens (but thats a complicated matter…and one of teh worst mistakes of my life…)
assuming everyone is there for the right reason i think its beautiful. barring dovid hamelech (who’s tunes i have never heard but i assume they were divine…) i think shlomo carlebach’s music did teh most for klal yisrael. (yes i know i just shafted 2 thousand years of jewish music.) his music isnt very complex, and his voice wasnt the greates, but boy if he didnt know how to fire up a crowd!
his niggunim bring out your emotions like no others. simple tunes…can make you feel liek you have never felt in your life. tehy can bring you together like nothing else can. pay attention at the next kumzits you go to…look at the crowd. are they all of one group, or every possible group imaginable? chassidish (yes, i know…blasphemy) litcish, yeshivish, lubavitch, chiloni, srugies, rebellious teenagers…everyone feels touched by the nuggunim. by shlomo carlebach’s niggunim.
i think that to dislike carlebach’s niggunim is to lack an understanding of ruchniyus and human emotion.February 18, 2011 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #742529
bombmaniac: So I can’t dislike Carlebach’s music simply because I just don’t like the style? As I wrote before, most of his songs sound the same (the 3 bar step-down is what I call one of the things he uses most). So if you don’t like one of them, you probably don’t like all of them. As you said, simple tunes. That’s correct. Most of them go nowhere, and have no real substance to them. Someone once asked one of my Rabbeim, “I heard Carlebach has a song that only has one word to it. Do you know it?” The Rebbe replied, “Yes. It’s kind of funny – the song is called Ruach, and it’s exactly what the song is missing!”
As I wrote earlier, R’ Mendel Kaplan zt”l told his students (one of which was a Rebbe of mine) that listening to Carlebach will make you depressed. That’s not my opinion, it’s the opinion of one of the biggest Rabbonim in America since WW2.
Some people will say, “But look at people singing Carlebach! They’re so happy and lively!” Well, it’s well documented that drinking alcohol actually causes you to be more depressed than you might already be. Yet when people are drunk, they get very lively too.February 18, 2011 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #742530
“listening to Carlebach will make you depressed”
I listen to Carlebach music and I’m not depressed….February 18, 2011 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #742531
personally, we do NOT daven at a Carlebach minyan.
but with the apparent sinas chinam displayed towards one group of mispallelim, (in this case, Carlebach minyan),I wonder about the tolerance of some towards the davening styles of others that may be unlike that of the poster, i.e. Sephardim, Shomrei Emunim, Lubavitch…
I did not mean to insult anyone, but responded (albeit emotionally) to the presumptiveness of one who seemingly insinuated that trop is compromised because of singing during davening.February 18, 2011 6:31 pm at 6:31 pm #742532
“listening to Carlebach will make you depressed”
I listen to Carlebach music and I’m not depressed….
Just imagine how happy you’d be if you didn’t listen to Carlebach! 🙂February 18, 2011 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #742533
the apparent sinas chinam displayed towards one group of mispallelim, (in this case, Carlebach minyan)
Maybe it’s those rose colored glasses of mine, but no one said (or at least most didn’t say) anything about the people who daven at a Carlebach minyan, just the davening itself.February 18, 2011 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #742534
Daas Yochid…thanks for the tip, but I’d rather keep listening to his music
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