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  • #1099781
    anonymisss
    Participant

    kapusta, thanks! A trip to Israel sounds great! Any sponsors?

    ames, thanks for starting this thread.;)

    ~a~

    #1099782
    anonymisss
    Participant

    anonymisss- i missed this entire discussion. Everything was well put. However, I hope it doesn’t give you any extra conflicts to deal with.

    If you can pull this off- can I suggest a trip to Israel, with a good friend, to recharge your emotional and spiritual batteries? I find just going there already rejuvenates the soul.

    areivim, if I wasn’t just there three weeks ago I’d probably seriously consider it. I do need it.

    I’m not a big advocate of therapy/psychologists unless it’s very necessary. Being that we do not have details I couldn’t judge. Most of the time, the tougher the situation, the stronger you will come out of it.

    Focus on emunah and davening- it lends strength you never knew you posessed.

    In times of trouble, the davening itself heals, you don’t necessarily need what we term “results”. We don’t know what the best results are for us; but it feels good just to unload and put everything on Hashem’s “shoulders”.

    About the davening-I am really trying and I hear what you’re saying about unloading as opposed to results. It’s hard. Also, I feel like such a faker! I always talked about emunah, but now that’s it me, it doesn’t look like I’m doing very well. I think I need help in this.

    I’m wishing you lots and lots of hatzlocha and may Hashem grant you with menuchas hanefesh.

    AMEN!! Thank you.

    ~a~

    #1099783
    kapusta
    Participant

    anonymisss, when you find one, let me know πŸ˜‰ and I second areivims menuchas hanefesh bracha. I wrote that thing late into the night πŸ™‚

    please, let us know when everythings better again!!! I really want to know!!! :):):):):)

    I had you in mind today during davening, hope it accomplished something for you πŸ™‚

    #1099784
    squeak
    Participant

    oh, I get it ames. Sorry, I can’t sahre the joke because I don’t want to retype it just to have it deleted again. But if it was a mistake a mod could let it go up.

    #1099785
    Mayan_Dvash
    Participant

    I think that if you cannot go to Israel, the point is a change of scenery. Maybe go to Florida Arizona or someplace that might only be an hour drive from your home. The change of environment should help clear your mind and put everything in the right perspective.;

    #1099786
    anonymisss
    Participant

    Kapusta, thanks for keeping me in mind. Isn’t it a funny thing though? Sometimes, I also have cr members in mind when I daven and I don’t know their names. I guess hashem knows who I’m talking about.

    Mayan-Thanks, although I don’t think I can go anywhere right now, between work and college…

    ~a~

    #1099787
    kapusta
    Participant

    anonymisss, if you want to talk or something, I’m here (mods aren’t, but I am) and if you want to do it through email is also fine. queen kapusta is a good listener πŸ™‚

    keep smiling :):):):):)

    #1099788
    anonymisss
    Participant

    Thanks, ames. It’s so nice to have people who care and try to help. I really do appreciate your concern and continued interest.

    I actually spoke to a therapist that I know (on the phone) a few days after it happened who reassured me that I am perfectly normal for feeling this way and it’s ok for me to be sad, even very sad. Then, I was barely functioning; not eating, not sleeping, forget about smiling. I am doing better already in that way (eating, sleeping.) My thoughts aren’t 24/7 on this like they were even just a few days ago. But it still makes me painfully sad when I do allow myself to think about it, and it bothers me that I still say why did it have to happen. I shouldn’t be talking like that!

    ~a~

    #1099789
    anonymisss
    Participant

    kapusta, just saw your post. Thanks to you, too, for your continued care and concern. I have a question that can’t be answered and I wish I wasn’t asking it. Why? Why do these things have to happen? Why do so many people have to suffer? I am angry at myself for asking as I know that I shouldn’t be but it’s really bothering me. Can anyone help me with this?

    ~a~

    #1099790
    kapusta
    Participant

    anonymisss, I have no answer for you, youre asking the age old question of tzaddik v’ra lo. one thing I can promise you is that Hashem wants you to be happy more than you do, times are crazy right now, best I could tell you is that it’s a very very big kapara, maybe for you, maybe for the world. It says (somewhere, maybe gemara) that if a person is going through something, they should check their maasim, check for bitul torah, (I think, dont quote me) and if none of those need improvement then its yisurim shel ahava. It happens that someone will suffer for someone else. It seems like this is doing a good job on you, and dont be angry at yourself, youre normal, I doubt theres a person in the world who ever went through something and didnt ask questions. remember gal gal hachozer and my offer still stands if you want it. πŸ™‚

    keep smiling :):):):):)

    #1099791
    anonymisss
    Participant

    offer?

    ~a~

    #1099792
    kapusta
    Participant

    talk, vent, whatever you want to call it πŸ™‚

    #1099794
    squeak
    Participant

    Why do bad things happen? Or why do bad things happen to good people?

    The first question is a difficult one; the second is easy. If bad things only happened to bad people, we would have no free will. We would not choose to be good because it is the right way but because we wish to avoid the bad. This is why true reward and punishment can only come in the next world, once our bechira is expired.

    #1099795
    an open book
    Participant

    nice answer, squeak

    #1099796
    moish01
    Member

    if you can’t answer the first question, maybe you can answer this:

    i’m not asking why bad things happen. i wish i could get an answer but i won’t hold my breath. but even more disturbing, why do some people give off the impression that their life is a fairy tale? everything is almost always perfect. and even if something upsets the harmony, it always works out within a short amount of time.

    #1099797
    an open book
    Participant

    moish01: are you asking about people who outright SAY they are happy & that their life is perfect? or about people whose lives seem basically perfect to you?

    #1099798
    an open book
    Participant

    ames: a coffee bean?

    #1099799
    moish01
    Member

    well, no. they actually make little tiny things seem like the biggest catastrophes ever. and you just wanna laugh in their face.

    my point is, why is THAT fair? (or is it?? i guess no one ever said life was fair)

    you have people who struggle with things every day of their lives and they’re expected to be just as good as the next guy who was never faced with a temptation in his life.

    fair??

    #1099800
    squeak
    Participant

    moish, regarding the first question (why do bad things happen?) I can answer it, but

    1) It is my own reasoning, and I am not absolutely sure it is correct

    2) It is a bit long winded

    3) Others have expressed it eloquently, and you can probably find it online

    The answer to the second question is without a doubt 100% emes.

    #1099801
    kapusta
    Participant

    moish I have to give you this one and tell you it sounds to me that youre describing a very, girly, girl. no matter what anyone tells you, everyone has their own pekela. about the second question, both people are doing what G-d intended for them to do on this world, not the next guy, them. when its time for the next world, the guy who got everything good asks if its fair, if he had the chance to accomplish great things, no one ever told him just how great it was.

    ames I think your idea for a thread is a completely lost cause.

    πŸ™‚

    #1099802
    squeak
    Participant

    moish, your question is deep and important to you. I don’t really understand the picture you are painting very well, but I can commiserate with you on life’s unfairness. The bottom line in any situation is that life is not fair (and that’s not fair either) but at least it is unfair to everyone.(?)

    Some people will act like nothing fazes them, but they suffer privately as much as anyone. Others will feed off any little excuse to whine about how sad their life is and play the sympathy card. It’s all an act. Everyone has their ups and downs, their good times and bad times, their challenges and their days on easy street. The face we put on to the world is just a show. (The only exception to this is someone who is on a very high madreiga and literally lives the phrase “Gam zu l’tova”, but these people will never bother you)

    As for judging others, sadly this is a fact of life too. Of course we shouldn’t but sometimes we do, and the irony is that the person we are judging could do the same to us in a different middah or action. No two people have the same temptation or inclination to do wrong, so it is impossible to understand why one person fails in an area that seems easy to overcome. I don’t know what to do about the “judges” except to ignore them as much as possible. That doesn’t help much, but I don’t know what does. At the end of the day, what they expect of a person doesn’t matter. It only matters what Hashem expects, and He knows each person’s personal situation.

    #1099803
    an open book
    Participant

    moish01: if the things they complain about really bother them that much, then they can be suffering as much as someone else might with a more difficult life. happiness, though it may seem to, doesn’t depend on how much/how easy you have it, like ames said, it’s all in your attitude & outlook. as these people prove, it’s not hard to complain & find the bad stuff in even the easier situations if you’re not trying to appreciate what you have.

    i think the main thing is to realize that happiness really doesn’t depend on anything but your state of mind, and that G-d really does give you everything you need & knows that you have the ability to withstand any challenges you were given. (not saying this is easy.)

    just think – i’m sure there are people who have it worse than you. they could be asking this same question, except in their minds, you are the one who has it so easy. could be they’re not struggling in the same area (for example; maybe they are responsible for a family & don’t know where they will get the next meal for them). imagine being in a worse situation than you are now (it can ALWAYS be worse) & then try to appreciate that you don’t have to worry about that. maybe the people you are talking about should be doing this too, but it is not your responsibility (or mine) to fix them.

    #1099804
    an open book
    Participant

    ames: oh (EOL – is that it?). yeah, i did, but i forgot that was where this thread started πŸ˜‰ ha now i get it thanks

    #1099805
    anonymisss
    Participant

    moish, before we argue this point (and I do have LOADS to say) let’s define the term “fair.” Go ahead, what does it mean?

    ~a~

    #1099806
    moish01
    Member

    ok, i’m gonna be a real tipesh now (or should i say golem??) and answer this strating from the bottom.

    anonymisss, fair is that everyone gets what he/she deserves or needs.

    AOB, i’m sorry but that’s really stupid. so the guy who breaks his pinky is going through the same pain as the guy whose dad just died?? there’s no way. and this is not a happiness issue.

    squeak, you’re last because you might understand better from kapusta’s.

    kapusta, but at the end of the day, who is the one who had it easier? the guy with less pulling him away, right? so there’s not much that will prevent him from reaching what he’s supposed to. the other guy may be a lot greater if and only if he ever actually gets anywhere in life. it’s a lot harder for him to even make a tiny move.

    so squeak, let’s say (and this is just an example) i’m an ok guy who sits and learns. (for once i’m gonna be the good guy ;)) not a genius, no major passion for anything, no concept of defiance, and no desire to do anything but be a good boy. kinda dull, but that’s ok. basically a pashut guy with emuna pshuta. decent guy? can he accomplish a nice amount in his life? sure. he’ll never be a great gadol or anything, but that’s not anyone’s goal in life. (hey that was me, right? so i was supposed to use “i” all over the place?? ;))

    now take the next guy. energetic guy who gets caught up in whatever he’s doing. does everything to it’s fullest with passion and all that junk. passion has two sides, though. pulling you to do good and pulling you the other way. so while he’s doing what he should be, he’s at the top. but if he’s ever pulled to the opposite extreme, he’s the lowest of the low.

    so if this guy stays at the top and fights his whole life he’s much greater than the first guy, right? if not, he’s waaay lower.

    now tell me: is that fair? one guy gets to cruise through life with barely a bump in the road, while the next guy’s constantly fighting?

    #1099807
    an open book
    Participant

    moish01: maybe the guy who broke his pinky had/will have a harder challenge at a different time in his life. or maybe at that time, that is not the only issue he’s dealing with. maybe his family’s a mess but all alive, so in a skewed way he might be jealous of the other guy, who might be jealous of him. i don’t think this specific example thing is doing much. i think squeak put it well (“some people will act…”).

    so if this guy stays at the top and fights his whole life he’s much greater than the first guy, right? if not, he’s waaay lower.

    i don’t think anyone who is still alive knows exactly how schar & “who is greater” works.

    #1099808
    squeak
    Participant

    moish, I think now I understand. The simpleton vs the driven, the sheep vs the shepherd. So I’m not going to answer right away, but I will get back to you.

    #1099809
    anon for this
    Participant

    moish, this reminds me of the story of a godol who, as a child, overheard his parents discussing him. They were disappointed that he was not interested in learning Torah, considered that perhaps he was not meant to be a talmid chacham, & discussed ending his schooling & apprenticing him to a local tradesman so he’d have a livelihood. Hearing how saddened his parents were at the prospect, the child told his parents he would start working at his learning. When he was much older, after the publication of one of his many seforim, he said, “What if I would have become a tradesman, & when I reached the olam ha’emes, the RBSH would have asked me what I accomplished? I would have told Him that I davened every day, conducted my business honestly, and learned occasionally, but He would have expected my seforim.”

    Knowing that Hashem only expects us to do the best we can do, not the best someone else can do, is somewhat reassuring. But sometimes we don’t even know our own potential, and the thought that we might be missing it is frightening.

    #1099810
    kiruvwife
    Member

    This discussion connects to R’ Zushe-who is famous for saying-“they (bais din shel maala) won’t ask me why I wasn’t Moshe Rabbeinu, or Avraham Avinu-they’ll ask me Why I wasn’t R’ Zushe?

    As far as bad things happening to tzaddikim/good people—there is a fascinating ma’amar by R’ Eliya Lopian explaining the depth of this “question of life”-and he explained that to outsiders it seems that these tzaddikim are suffering, but to them, their bitachon is so enormous that it doesn’t feel like suffering, they feel Yad Hashem in everything and feel loved by every move Hashem makes.

    #1099811
    anonymisss
    Participant

    moish, your definition of the word fair sort of answers your question. Every person gets what he needs (we’ll skip deserves for now) to be the best person he can be. God doesn’t compare you to your neighbor, He compares you to the person He knows you can be.

    There’s a famous moshol (don’t know where it’s from) about a man who trained his whole life for mountain climbing. When he made his longest, hardest trek up one of the world’s tallest mountains, to his great disappointment, he saw a young boy up there. The man was devestated! He worked so hard for so many years to get here and this youngster, in his short lifetime, was up here already! What the man did not know, was that the boy was born at the top of the mountain.

    moish, in your example, the first guy was born on top of the mountain, no sweat. The second guy, it was hard for him, he worked for it and got there.

    Hashem doesn’t necessarily look to see where you are, He looks to see where you came from and what kind of effort you made to be where you are. People might appear to be towards the lower half of the mountain, but they could very possibly be far, far ahead of someone who seems to be at the top.

    ~a~

    #1099812
    squeak
    Participant

    moish, you’re clearly not the simple guy. They don’t achieve this level of independent thought.

    The theme of your question is “Why am I challenged more than the average ‘good’ guy? If I weren’t challenged I’d be a ‘good’ guy too”. I’ll start with the easiest thing first: The things that challenge you and lead you to do things you regret are the same things that make you moish01. If not for these challenges, you would be Chaim Yankel. Next time you see Chaim Yankel, look at him closely; imagine that you were no different from him – you ARE him. Do you like the picture? No, I think not. You like you (and you should), therefore you must accept the things that make you that way. Is it a tougher burden than Chaim Yankel’s? It may be, but that is the price you must pay to be moish01. He may have gotten his “peckele” at the outlet, while you bought yours in a Manhattan boutique, but you get what you pay for in life.

    This, by the way, is the same answer I tried to give you when you mentioned your brother, Mr. Perfect (the post did not get approved). You like ‘you’, your parents like ‘you’, Mr. Perfect likes ‘you’. If you were Mr. Perfect then there would be no moish01, because there can be no Perfect Moish01. I got plenty more to say about this, but I don’t want to jeopardize my entire post by accidentally repeating something unworthy in this paragraph.

    If you can accept that everything that drives you, and everything that challenges you, is what makes you who you are (I hate cliches, but just one), then you are already most of the way to answering your question. The rest of it would take a personal discussion with someone who knows you. Is it your high intelligence that makes you see things that fly over the average person’s head like an eagle flies over a worm? Is it some middah that you excel in which you are using for good and bad? I can’t even begin to understand the specific nature of your question, but I’m sure someone can, if you trust them to.

    As far as other people go, you know that no one has it easy. But some people who might be like you are instead fitting in to the “average” group that sits and learns and never thinks of disobedience (for example). The reason for that is that we are challenged even from a young age. The choices we make then, to conform or to rebel, bring us down a path that leads to the choices we face today. So the kid who shrugged off the (then) minor challenge to be a rebel at age 8 will not have the major challenge you face at age 16. That applies to some people; most people would never face the same challenges as you no matter what. So what looks easy for them is hard for you, but what is easy for you may be hard for them. No one has it ALL easy. This phenomenon is what enables people to be overly critical of othes – the fact that we all have different challenges.

    Please, find someone you trust to talk about specifics. There are answers. And think about what I said about the 8 year old setting the course for the 16 year old and what that means for a 16 year old vis a vis a 24 year old.

    #1099813
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Moish, I once heard a brilliant piece about the Chanukah candles from R’ Lipa Rabinovitz (of Yeshivas Ohalei Shem in Yerushalayim)

    On Chanukah, the gemarra tells us there are 3 ways one can do the mitzva of kindling the lights.

    1. 1 light each night

    2. every night light for the number of people in the home (e.g. If parents and 3 kids, every night 5 lights will be lit)

    3. Beis Hillel 1 on the 1st night, 2 on the second.

    The 2nd case was referred to as Mehadrin. The 3rd case is Mehadrin Min Hamihadrin.

    Lets look at this. On the 1st night Mehadrin does 5 and Mihadrin min HaMihadrin is doing 1. Yet the one who is 1 is doing the mitzva better than the 5! The camera shows that the person lighting is doing more than the mihadrin min hamihadrin lighting 1, however, the camera lies.

    He compares this to a beis midrash. Seder might be for 2 hours. Some guys might get pshat during the 1st half hour, then go for a smoke or a snack, whilst others are toiling to make sense out of that which their friends find so simple.

    Those that get it quickly, in this example, are the mihadrin, those that toil are the Mihadrin Min HaMihadrin. The Mehadrin often fall into the trap of complacency. They are stuck at 5, yet those that toil, the MeHadrin Min HaMihadrin, granted they are overshadowed by the Mihadrin in the beginning (5-1), but the next night it’s (5-2), and eventually they take the lead.

    In Pirkei Avos it says, ???? ???? ????, literally, no pain, no gain. Kol Haschalos Kashos. Things are always difficult in the beginning. We need to work on ourselves in order to grow. For some the nissayon is starting and staying with it. For some, it is not resting on our laurels.

    Rashi says that there are times when Moshe is written before Ahron, and times Ahron is mentioned before moshe. This is because they are equal.

    R’ Moshe Feinstein asks how can you say the were equal, we know nobody can reach the spiritual level of Moshe Rabbeinu?

    He answers that they are equal in that they both fulfilled their purpose in life and were equally “Shalem”, complete.

    #1099814
    moish01
    Member

    wow. i’m digesting. and i didn’t even get to JayMatt’s yet.

    first of all, i don’t think you people understand what a real simple guy is. (or maybe you are the simple guy so you don’t see it from the outside??)

    my point is that even their biggest tzara is a little minor nothing… so they got into a car accident and had to pay 1,000 bucks. oh i feel so sorry for them. even if the guy doesn’t have the money it’s still not the hugest deal. it’s only money.

    squeak actually got it the most on target. (other than JayMatt – i didn’t read his yet…)

    anonymiss, the kid isn’t on top because he was born there. he got onto the sky ride thingy and just rode up past the hikers. and smiled and waved as he went by. then he got complimented for making it there first and without any bruises and no wrinkles on his stark white shirt while the rest of the hikers had a couple of scraped knees and some mud on their shirts. i could make it even more realistic if i had more of an imagination… but you get the point? it’s so cheap.

    and for the reb zusha one: i understand that. but what about if i can’t deal with what i have? i won’t even be moish, right? and i won’t even have an excuse. so at the end of the day, even if i’m a regular guy but i COULD have been a maggid shiur (yeah right!), then i still lost out. never mind that there were three options: 1)maggid shiur 2)doctor/lawyer and 3)…in the negative

    squeak, yours i’m having a hard time digesting

    #1099815
    squeak
    Participant

    I disagree JayMatt. The guys who “get it” in the first half hour are “going too far ahead” and end up just as lost as the slow kids. That is, the establishment ignores them just as much. A bored mind is bad enough, but a bored mind of the highest caliber is prone to find things to occupy itself. Unless the things it occupies itself with help the bochur grow in learning (maybe to the point where he achieves a level where he can go to an elite yeshiva and actually be challenged) which is unfair to expect.

    There, I’ve spoken out against the establishment publicly, proving that I am not a real psychologist.

    #1099816
    squeak
    Participant

    take your time, moish. I spent an hour making sure it said what I wanted it to.

    BTW, I understand simple guys all too well. My alma mater yeshiva worships the simple guy.

    #1099817
    anonymisss
    Participant

    moish, fine have the story your way. It makes no difference. My point is that the struggle and effort is what’s important, not the “location.” Those specific challenges that you, moish, have are what make you.

    ~a~

    #1099818
    moish01
    Member

    hey, i like it Jay. but it’s so way over me. i’m not any of the guys in the bais medrash- not the one who sits over it, not the smart guy who takes it easy and not even the coffeeroom guy who shmoozes all day. (unless you call this place a bais medrash??)

    so while my struggle is say, not eating milchigs after meat, even the guy who ditches and smokes is way ahead, right? (especially since i went backwards…)

    oh and by the way, squeak, just for the record: my name is just plain moish. you could leave the 01 out… πŸ˜‰

    #1099819
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    I agree with you squeak. A rebbe has the difficult task of making sure the “slower” students don’t get left back while not allowing the “quick” students to become bored and ignored.

    However, that was not what I was referring to.

    The example I was giving, however, if from a Beis Midrash environment where people learn chavrusas. The Maggid Shiur will give out Ma’arei Mikomos which need to be prepared in time for shiur. Some people will struggle to complete them prior to shiur while others will do it quickly, then waste the remaining par of seder. People will often be “fooled” by those who are able to accomplish this task quickly. This is the parallel to the chanukah candle and the mihadrin and mihadrin min hamihadrin I was referring to.

    Thanks for helping me clarify that. One knows what they want to say, but it takes assistance from someone else to know what you really are saying. Toda Rabba

    #1099820
    moish01
    Member

    squeak, he occupies himself by smoking. the other guys don’t have time for a smoke πŸ˜‰

    #1099821
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Moish, Everyone gets judged based upon where they are. The point of the moshol wasn’t to make you feel that you are so far removed (which you aren’t) but rather to show you that the main focus in life is spiritual growth. A yid needs to be growing spiritually. This is difficult both when things are hard, and when they are easy, as the dvar torah explains.

    As you have stated, there was a “regression” spiritually, but that’s in the past. When a boy climbs up a ladder, and all he does is look down (or remember his previous falls) he will not get very far. However, if he look up at all the climbing he can still do, there will be a greater distance traveled (If my memory serves me correctly, there is a story about R’ Akiva Eiger to that effect)

    #1099822
    moish01
    Member

    squeak, every yeshiva worships that guy. they don’t even want good guys who think too much. never mind not “good” guys who think too much.

    and by the way, i have nothing against my brother. he’s just a good kid, that’s all. a really awesome chaim yankel. the only reality he probably has in his life is having me as a brother, that’s all. and how painful is that for him?

    and anonymisss, not always do the climbers make it to the top. what happens when they lose their grip and tumble back to the bottom? sometimes they can make another attempt and sometimes they’re left crippled. if they are still alive, that is.

    #1099823
    moish01
    Member

    The point of the moshol wasn’t to make you feel that you are so far removed (which you aren’t)

    jay, first of all, i am. what’s the point in lying?

    and second, who said the regression is only in the past? i was just labeled the source of evil in my friends. real nice title, if i may say so myself.

    #1099824
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    I’m not lying. Your talking about this anonymously in a frum forum. That in itself shows you are not far removed.

    As for the second point. That doesn’t prove you are regressing. Just the opposite, being part of a chevra where everyone is “better” is healthy for spiritual growth. Granted, in an “elitist” society people might skew the facts, but if that is your chevra, and these are your friends, then I think my original comment stands.

    #1099825
    squeak
    Participant

    JayMatt, I am even vaguely aware of the chavrusa style learning that goes on in one or two yeshivos in this world. My point is, why are these kids “finished” in half an hour? Because they are supposed to be learning what is on the maareh mekomos sheet. If they are prepared for shiur, they are kings of the universe. That doesn’t give these kids any motivation to stay in the B”M after they are “ready” for shiur. Hence, many are satisfied and battel away the remaining 2.5 hours.

    #1099826
    squeak
    Participant

    moish, most yeshivos want to graduate a fine product. They may prefer that the bochur is incapable of independent thought, but at least they want to make something of him. The yeshiva that I am referring to has no quality control; the only important thing is the amount of time on your log sheet (even if it was all spent on one line).

    #1099827
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    >>why are these kids “finished” in half an hour? Because they are supposed to be learning what is on the maareh mekomos sheet.<<

    If you are learning only for shiur, then you are correct. But if you are learning for the sake of learning, and you accept that Torah is Ikar, than you could easily spend the rest of time going deeper into the sugya, reviewing the previous shiur, going into a previous sugya which the shiur skipped.

    Just because they are supposed to be learning what is on the ma’arei makom sheet, doesn’t mean they can’t learn anything else. They could also discuss with others how they learned the ma’arei mikomos.

    The problem here is the mentality, not the ma’arei mikomos sheet. I have seen the ones who struggle in the beginning who later become greater than the “quick” learners. And do you know what? Even after they overtake them they don’t “give up” after the 30 minutes. Torah is valuable to them and they don’t wasted it (nor do they waste their time)

    #1099828
    moish01
    Member

    oh Jay, they are not better in any way. if anything, i was always the good guy. (i guess i’m more of a spiritual guy and i can’t control that) i don’t know why i get looked at before and after anyone does anything – i can’t control that either, but i don’t think i’m the worst guy in the lot.

    fact is, i’m not sticking with them anymore. if it’s true that they mess around because of me, i don’t need that on my head. i’ve got enough of my own things so burn for – i have no desire to burn for my friends too.

    edit: don’t make that absolute. i can’t imagine life without my friends so i don’t know how longs it’s really gonna last…

    #1099829
    squeak
    Participant

    If you are learning only for shiur, then you are correct. But if you are learning for the sake of learning, and you accept that Torah is Ikar, than you could easily spend the rest of time going deeper into the sugya, reviewing the previous shiur, going into a previous sugya which the shiur skipped.

    Just because they are supposed to be learning what is on the ma’arei makom sheet, doesn’t mean they can’t learn anything else. They could also discuss with others how they learned the ma’arei mikomos.

    JayMatt, I think you just elucidated on my point. Thank you. I see we agree, but have different things to say about it. My take is, why do we think that it is right to EXPECT these kids to “learn for the sake of learning”? The fact that the brightest are out smoking for half of seder proves that we are not giving them the motivation or the drive.

    #1099830
    moish01
    Member

    squeak, can i make a kal vachomer?

    The fact that the brightest are out smoking for half of seder proves that we are not giving them the motivation or the drive.

    …kal vachomer the guys like me who don’t EVEN go to half of seder and they’re out smoking the WHOLE time! those guys must be BEYOND brilliant…

    #1099831
    JayMatt19
    Participant

    Moish, I see you are a major lamdan

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