May 29, 2023 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #2193614lakewhutParticipant
You can criticize chabad beliefs but no other Jews have emunah that Mashiach is near and have a real yearning for Mashiach like Chabad does. At least not the yeshivas and shuls that I went to and I’ve been in very yeshivish places.May 30, 2023 12:39 am at 12:39 am #2193690☕️coffee addictParticipant
Another chabad moshiach thread?May 30, 2023 12:40 am at 12:40 am #2193693get it straightParticipant
chabad believes the rebbe is mashiach that’s what they are yearning for.May 30, 2023 12:40 am at 12:40 am #2193694GadolhadorahParticipant
Perhaps you miss the point. Litvish yidden have no less emunah or yearning for moishiach than Chabadniks. They just have a very different perspective on what the lawyers would say are the “conditions precedent” for z’man moishiach.May 30, 2023 12:41 am at 12:41 am #2193697Yossel PupikParticipant
1. Ok, so what? They are extremely obsessed with it, so naturally it will be on their minds more.
2. Rav Shach criticized their belief in the rebbe being Moshiach as not having proper belief in the coming of moshiach. Belief in Moshiach is supposed to be part of Emuna in Hashem and how he runs the world and makes things happen. A group deciding, based on some shaky evidence that their leader must be Moshiach to the exclusion of everyone else is not real belief in Moshiach, rather it’s a belief in the superiority of their group.May 30, 2023 12:50 am at 12:50 am #2193698
Well, if you never learn more than 3 blatt of 7 random masechtos, how will you ever know anything about yiddishkeit?
The way to have a yearning for the Geulah, is by studying ALL of Torah. Then you will see that half of the Mitzvos cannot be fulfilled and you will have not just a yearning, but a fiery zeal for the Geulah.
Why is it that people who try to build the Beis Hamikdash are called extremists by the FRUM YESHIVISH velt??
And those that study the entire Torah, to keep it, are called baalehbatim??
The Torah is REAL, not some jokeMay 30, 2023 7:12 am at 7:12 am #2193708
1) Don’t undersell Chabad! They inspire many non Jews to yearn for Moshiach as well.
2) Your title claims that they inspire all Jews. Then you posted that no other Jews yearn like they do. Which sounds like Chabad is failing at their primary task.May 30, 2023 7:28 am at 7:28 am #2193722
In chapter 11 of Hilchos Melachim in the Frenkel, uncensored, edition of Mishneh Torah, the Rambam writes that the reason Hashem allowed the events of Y Hanotzri (and Mohammed) to take place were to spread the belief in Mashiach, even though it was a totally false belief. Then when the real Mashiach comes he will be accepted by all who will forsake their incorrect beliefs.
So even though the belief that the Lubavicher rebbe was/is Mashiach is totally false, I suppose there may be some good that will eventually come out of it.
editedMay 30, 2023 7:34 am at 7:34 am #2193914
115 – because we’re not supposed to build it, as the rishonim say, we don’t know exactly where to put the mizbeach. We also can’t bring korbanos nowadays anyway, So go make one and risk being chayav kares. I guess rishonim just “didn’t want” to build it, and neither did amoraim who lived in eretz yisroel.
Seriously…this is your criticism? Halacha is clear about this.
As to your point about talmudic readings that happen in synagogues every morning, yeshiva people learn gemara the way the dvar Hashem is meant to be learned. With ameilus, rigorous questioning and analysis to figure out the kavanah of the gemara and rishonim, to understand what’s beneath the surface.
Talmud readers who celebrate big siyumim on tractates that they say “all sound the same” and who pride themselves in their ability to….translate most gemaras without artscrolll!…yes, they know “kol hatorah kulah”
Please. We all know what the average daf yomi shiur is like.
Some baalebatim learn Torah properly. They are bnei torah and deserve all the respect in the world. But others.
edited againMay 30, 2023 9:27 am at 9:27 am #2193934DaMosheParticipant
To think that non-Chabadniks wouldn’t yearn for Mashiach without the influence of Chabad is just ridiculous. There is no basis for this whatsoever, and it’s just Chabad once again trying to make themselves more relevant.
As was noted earlier, the Mashiach that Chabad waits for is not the same as what other Jews wait for.
I recently saw an article written by the Rosh Yeshiva of the Chabad yeshiva in Cincinnati. I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. Here are some excerpts:
He is listing some points that Chabad should always keep in mind: “The constant focus that this concealment is temporary and that at any moment the Rebbe will return and take us out of Galus. This is the greatest source of optimism, excitement and connection. This is the ultimate driving force in the Hiskashrus of a Chassid today. It also creates the true feeling of accountability to the Rebbe, which is so vital and important for every chassid.”
His conclusion is: “Iyh we will be reunited with the Rebbe, Vehu Yigaleinu, and there will be no need to have this discussion!”
There is another group waiting for someone to return and redeem everyone…May 30, 2023 10:24 am at 10:24 am #2193944
Avira: some good life-advice someone gave me when I was younger: “you can be right, and still be a jerk” (ok that’s a slightly edited version).
The point here being, did you really need to go off on that rant against working people who squeeze in a hour or two of learning just to get that point across?May 30, 2023 10:26 am at 10:26 am #2193945Reb EliezerParticipant
The Aim Habanim Semacha quotes the Yerushalmi Masser Sheni (5,2) mentioned by the Tosfas Yom Tov there that we must build the Beis Hamikdash before the coming of meshiach.
The problem is that Eliyahu Hanavi must come first as we don’t know how to build it.May 30, 2023 10:27 am at 10:27 am #2193946hujuParticipant
I believe the fundamental mission of Chabad shluchim is to have non-observant Jews do more mitzvos, whether it’s putting on tefillin or praying for Moshiach to come. In fact, whenever I see shluchim on patrol, they ask men about tefillin, women about lighting Shabbos candles. I don’t think they have ever mentioned Moshiach directly.
As for believing the 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach: Among the oldest Chabadniks, some do believe that, but among the younger, i.e., under 60, most accept that the Rebbe did die and therefore cannot be Moshiach. I think the younger Chabadniks are waiting for the Rebbe’s generation to go to the Next World before accepting an 8th rebbe. Caveat: these are my opinions based on conversations with many Chabadniks. None of the have said exactly what I just wrote.May 30, 2023 10:46 am at 10:46 am #2193966
Having been around Lubavichers on a number of continents for many many years, and knowing well their ins and outs, I can assure you that you have it wrong.
The younger generation has been inculcated with the belief that their rebbe has not died and that he is definitely Mashiach. There are differences in explaining what “has not died” exactly means, but the vast majority sing Yechi etc.
They’re not waiting to appoint an 8th rebbe. They’re waiting for the 7th to reappear.May 30, 2023 11:32 am at 11:32 am #2193985Avram in MDParticipant
“Don’t undersell Chabad! They inspire many non Jews to yearn for Moshiach as well.”
So did Paul… Given how hostile Chabad can be towards other streams of frum Judaism, the fact that they attract a lot of non-Jewish attention is actually kind of scary to me.
“Your title claims that they inspire all Jews. Then you posted that no other Jews yearn like they do. Which sounds like Chabad is failing at their primary task.”
The OP intended to inflame, not inform. Therefore making sense was not the top priority.May 30, 2023 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #2194045
“I don’t think they have ever mentioned Moshiach directly.”
That’s no accident. The hiding of meshichism is one of the most intricate conspiracies I’ve ever witnessed. Examples you can observe:
-Check out some “talk” pages on wikipedia on Jewish-related articles. Chabad-affiliated editors work tirelessly to push the narrative that mishichism doesn’t exist or is very fringe. (As a side note, they also push for the normalization of the word “misnaged” and its derivatives, but that’s another story for another day).
-Check out what happens when a Chabadnik with smicha tries to open up his own shul (eg. see the fact that there are 2 “Chabad Houses” on Colorado Springs).
-Observe how there is no mention of it on Chabad dot org, even in the comments on any articles. Seems strange given how much people clearly like discussing this issue.
Halachically, it’s better that they hide it. But, in the personal sense, it’s kind of creepy how far it goes.May 30, 2023 1:11 pm at 1:11 pm #2194036Yabia OmerParticipant
Aveirah said: “yeshiva people learn gemara the way the dvar Hashem is meant to be learned.”
How do you know??May 30, 2023 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #2194061SQUARE_ROOTParticipant
Right now [May 2023 CE] Lubavitch has hundreds of posters in Brooklyn, placed where they can be seen by millions of people, most of whom are not Jewish.
These posters strongly suggest that Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson [the last Rebbe of Lubavitch] is alive right now, and that he is the Melech HaMashiach, right now.
This is very wrong, for many reasons.
No matter how many things Lubavitch does wrong, they always have thousands of useful idiots who rush to defend them and justify the things they do wrong.
I wish that I also had thousands of useful idiots, who would rush to defend me, and justify me, no matter what I do wrong.May 30, 2023 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #2194117
Neville, i wasn’t intending to blast baalebatim per se, rather the idea that the way daf yomi is learned has any connection with knowing “kol hatorah kulah.” It’s a bizayon hatorah to say that people who memorize shakla vetarya know kol hatorah kulah. They don’t.
Now it’s obviously a great thing and mesirus nefesh if a person only has an hour to learn to spend that time learning according to their abilities and energy – actually, that hour of mesirus nefesh is considerably more valuable in shomayim than hours spent leisurely learning superficially by a yeshiva man.
But does that torah mean that he knows Torah b”iyun, where it can be remotely described as kol hatorah kulah?
Sorry, it doesn’t work that way. A good baalabus is not a talmid chacham; they have different roles, and that line must not be crossed. Of course there are working people who are talmidei chachamim, but that’s only if fhey spent years learning before going to work full time.May 30, 2023 3:17 pm at 3:17 pm #2194116midwesternerParticipant
SR: If you would make a kosher corned beef sandwich available to them in Thailand, they’d cover for you too.May 30, 2023 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #2194139RightJewParticipant
Chabad’s replacement theology is actually a major obstacle to Moshiach coming.
Radical Chabad ideologues are actually attacking traditional Judaism, and attempting to replace it with a new religion of Chabadianity.
Chabad is not claiming Moshiach is near, or that a deceased person could become Moshiach in the future. Chabad is claiming there IS a Moshiach now, and he just happens to be the deceased Chabad rebbe. This is a con game to attract donations from well-meaning but misinformed Jews using a false messiah.
Chabad’s false messiah is a radical attack on the true Torah concept of Moshiach, who must be a living Jewish king in Jerusalem as per the Rambam’s 12th Principle.May 30, 2023 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #2194140RightJewParticipant
Chabad’s replacement theology is actually a major obstacle to Moshiach coming.
Radical Chabad ideologues are constantly attacking traditional Judaism, and attempting to replace it with a new religion of Chabadianity.
Chabad is not claiming Moshiach is near, they are claiming there is a Moshiach now, and he just happens to be the deceased Chabad rebbe. This is a con game to attract donations from well-meaning but misinformed Jews using a false messiah.
Chabad’s false messiah is a radical attack on the true Torah concept of Moshiach, who must be a living Jewish king in Jerusalem.May 30, 2023 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #2194144GadolhadorahParticipant
A bunch of Litvish guys in Black Hats can run up and down 13th Avenue passionately waving yellow flags and singing yechi. Does that make them any less yearning for z’man moishiach than if they did so on Eastern Parkway??May 30, 2023 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #2194145
I’m not talking about balebatim.
I’m talking about ppl “sitting in learning” in yeshiva for 10-20 years, who are Amaratzim gemurim in shas.
They don’t even know what it is.
When I quote a yerushalmi or a sifra, they look at me like I fell from the moon.May 30, 2023 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #2194146741Participant
If you want to be the creator of a long coffee room thread, just write something about Chabad, pro or con and you’re almost guaranteed to get it.
I’ll keep that in mind if I ever want “created long coffee room thread” on my resume.May 30, 2023 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #2194150
Also, there is something called Halacha for a reason.
You don’t need Eliyahu for that.
Building the Mikdash is like any other mitzvah and chiyuv.
Lo bashamayim hi lemor mi yaaleh lanu hashamayma…..
Throughout history, our ancestors always tried building it.
There were dozens of times when we came very close, to varying degrees.
People who say we can’t, are kofrim.
Maybe we don’t know how to keep shabbos either until Eliyahu comes? Etc…..
Study Torah and Halacha, and we’ll know how.
The earlier generations NEVER said: we dont how to do it.
They tried and failed. Ones rachmana patrei….
We must try and succeed!May 30, 2023 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #2194157Yechi HamelechParticipant
Hello CR participants!
I’m Chabad, and I would like to notify everyone that, after having read all the brilliant comments posted in this thread and the tremendous knowledge of Inyonei Moshiach they all display, I’ve decided from hereafter to never again believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach.May 30, 2023 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #2194160Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Avira > Of course there are working people who are talmidei chachamim, but that’s only if fhey spent years learning before going to work full time.
Interesting question. I would venture majority of T’Ch in history were working, whether full time or not. Did we have T’Ch who always worked and learned, or all of them spent some time (presumably when young) exclusively in learning?May 30, 2023 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #2194163Ari KnoblerParticipant
The Brisker Rov zt”l had you-know-who pegged to a tee.
In hashkafic matters, always side with the superior ga’on.May 30, 2023 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #2194189
Who exactly tried building the bais hamikdash?May 30, 2023 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #2194188
125 – the rishonim, who teach us the halacha, say that we do not know where to put the mizbeach. Therefore, for that reason alone, we cannot build the beis hamikdash.
And i have no idea who you’re talking to in yeshiva who has never heard of a yerushalmi or sifri – literally every single guy in my yeshiva after 10th grade knows what that is.May 30, 2023 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #2194203Reb EliezerParticipant
The reason we don’t know how to build it as there is a contradiction between Melachim and Yecheskel and we don’t know which to follow.May 31, 2023 12:31 am at 12:31 am #2194215
The “mizbeach” thing, is an outright excuse.
We would never say that in any other area of Halacha.
It’s only because you don’t want it.
Stop focusing on so many things that have nothing to do with yahadus, and focus on re-establishing more than HALF of the Torah to it’s proper place.
If you want it, you’ll figure out a way.
There is no reason why we can’t know where the mizbeach should go
There’s a 3 way machlokes tanaaim where it should go, so we should pasken like one of them.
And according to R Yehuda, the whole azarah is kosher.May 31, 2023 12:33 am at 12:33 am #2194214
Yechezkel is bayis shelishi. Pashut. Zvachim 59-60 makes it clear.
Melachim is irrelevant.
The mizbeach is 24 amos, including the shittin.
Mizbeach adama means not on rocks or ditches.
Anyways, Halacha is Halacha. It’s not effected by these things.
That’s why we have chachamim and bes dinMay 31, 2023 12:33 am at 12:33 am #2194216
Right after the churban, they tried rebuilding. (“Be happy you were in the mouth of the lion and lived”)
Then again a major rebellion by Bar Cochba, they were expelled from Judea.
And expelled from Israel entirely 200 years later.
in 470, An Italian group tried coming but got drowned.
In 500’s, under Julian the apostate, they were very close, until he was assassinated by the Christians.
In 609, the son of the Resh Galusa, came with 30,000 Jewish soldiers fighting in Persian army against Constantinople.
They were promised everything by the Persians.
They conquered Jerusalem and started building, only to be double crossed by the king.
After that, we were scattered to the west, and the land lay barren and empty with no hope.
Jews from France came with crusaders in 1100’s, only to find out they lost Jerusalem, and settled in AcoMay 31, 2023 2:09 am at 2:09 am #2194225
So… What the rishonim say is an “excuse”
We can’t just pick a shitah to pasken from. It’s a chiyuv missah.
I have no idea where these accounts come from; do any rishonim or achronim advocate rebuilding it?
And bar kochva was supported by the gedolim… but he didn’t try to rebuild the beis hamikdash in any event.May 31, 2023 9:51 am at 9:51 am #2194282
Yechi Hamelech, whether or not you’re really a Lubavicher or writing tongue in cheek, it’s not davka Inyonei Moshiach where we display tremendous knowledge. It’s the ability to recognize the obstinate and unfounded claim that “My Rebbe is Mashiach because I want him to be” that we have, and that we are fighting.
Just for the record, I challenge any Lubavicher to show me how the late Lubavicher rebbe /fit/fits even one of the criteria delineated by the Rambam in Hilchos Melachim.May 31, 2023 11:28 am at 11:28 am #2194390
That was more or less what I was pointing out.May 31, 2023 11:28 am at 11:28 am #2194393
The Lubavitchers that were born well after the Rebbe passed, are even more convinced of supremacy. This is well known. It is interesting to consider the implications.May 31, 2023 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #2194416
Denying moshiach ch”v or messianic fervor is not by itself a new religion. This is what is completely unique about Chabad. They have this major separating factor. Yet they do not use it to justify any deviant practice (That I know of.) In any other aspect of Torah.May 31, 2023 1:58 pm at 1:58 pm #2194424
Bar Kochba did try to rebuild the Bais Hamikdash. How could anybody believe in him without that? There are numerous subtle sources to this. What do you think he was doing in Jerusalem before the Romans came?May 31, 2023 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #2194429
The fact that the Rishonim did not know where to put the mizbeach is not relevant to today.
The question today is if we could know what is the minimum criteria and can we achieve it.
And then there is a whole nother question. Should we do it if we can.
I’m inclined to think that the answer to the second query is a resounding NO.May 31, 2023 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #2194432
I’m not at all Chabad..
The Rebbe was a descendant of King David.
That was easy.May 31, 2023 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #2194433
I’m not sure why Gaon is the number one criteria for Hashkafa.
It pains of terribly to admit this. The Chabad Rebbe know everything in Torah that the Brisker Rav knew. Gaonic qualifications was his strong point. And is what made it near impossible to contest him when he was still living.May 31, 2023 2:00 pm at 2:00 pm #2194434
The yeshiva today excels in the study of the Classic Rishonim and Acharonim. Gemara? Not so much.May 31, 2023 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #2194507
“The Rebbe was a descendant of King David.”
I have to admit that I was waiting for that one. Who said he was a descendent of Dovid Hamelech? He did, and his father-in-law did. I think that’s the extent of it. He may indeed have been a descendent, but claiming to be does not mean you are.
Furthermore, their claim to descendency (I hope that’s a real word) is through Rashi… who only had daugthers! Finally, although I don’t remember all the details at the moment, their claim is not through Shlomo Hamelech, and the Rambam, in Peirush Hamishnayos (Sanhedrin 10:1), writes that whoever says Mashiach will not be a descendent of Shlomo is “kofer BaShem uvedivrei neviav”.
“The Chabad Rebbe know everything in Torah that the Brisker Rav knew.”
How do you know that? The Lubavicher rebbe certainly knew a lot, but how do you know how to make that comparison?May 31, 2023 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #2194524
There is more to the European Davidic line than just Rashi. The Rebbe could trace himself through at least five different families. Practically every Jew in Europe descended from Dovid Hamelech a couple of different ways.
I don’t understand your question.May 31, 2023 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #2194530
Nom, spoken like a true Lubavitcher. Lots of gedolim said he wasn’t big in learning, including the Brisker rov.
The Lubavitcher rebbe was not a rosh yeshiva who wrote chidushim or gave gemara shiurim from which we can see his level of learning. He gave sichos in chasidishe Torah (supposedly), which is a lot easier. Being able to darshen does not make you a gadol batorah
Is it any wonder that in chabad, they extol their rebbes memory, supposed miracles, and fiery drashos, farbrebgens, his alleged behind the scenes work on behalf of Russian jewry, etc…
Never heard a good pshat in a rashba from him. Maybe he did write such things, but I’ve never heard of it.May 31, 2023 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #2194586
“Nom, spoken like a true Lubavitcher.”
I don’t think he’s Chabad.
“He gave sichos in chasidishe Torah (supposedly)”
I don’t agree with this being an automatic disqualifier. The Divrei Yoel could also be called “Chassidishe Torah,” but it’s still very lomdush as are probably most Chassidishe peirushim on the Torah. Maybe I misunderstood your point.
“Practically every Jew in Europe descended from Dovid Hamelech a couple of different ways.”
I assume it has to be ben achar ben.May 31, 2023 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #2194618
The qualification that the poster gave was gaon. Not depth or analytical strength. Gaon means vast knowledge. The Rebbe was unique in his vast knowledge.
There are many living people who heard his Torah. There are also a select few geniuses that studied with him. He astounded everyone. One Gaon Rosh Yeshiva of today told me that his learning level was on par with Rav Shach. Also, the bnei yeshiva of today considered him the biggest lamdan among all the Rebbes. They went to his farbreingin.
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