June 8, 2023 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #2198143
i didnt see those words there.
so the rebbe is explaining about asking about asking תיקונים
then the rebbe brings the zohar of ישראל אורייתא וקוב”ה כולא חד
and the rebbe brings other examples of this concept from zohar, tanya and in the haara from yerushalmi.
so youre attack is the the zohar is apikorsos? or the yerushalmi? only bavli is torah?
(i didint have time right now to learn the whole sicha, but i did in the past, i never remembered this claim from this sicha, i guess when you learn לקנטר you understand different)
i did’nt understand if what you posted was the original print or subsequent?June 8, 2023 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #2198158
Nothing about Chabad. The switch to not wearing tefillin on Chol Hamoed is the most likely of the four to have been influenced by kabbalistic theories. Rav Moshe wrote a teshuva about it.June 8, 2023 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #2198164
Forget the zohar. Read. The words. He says you can pray TO him because HE is god.
Do you understand yiddish?June 8, 2023 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #2198168
>>>This language was removed from subsequent prints.
This is a lie. There is no edition missing these words, because Lubavitch has no need to cover this up.
Since this has been discussed at great length hundreds of times in the CR, it is pointless to rehash.June 8, 2023 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #2198195
I think I would have to read more of this thread to know what specifically you are addressing. I’m not sure what you mean by “the four,” but don’t worry about it. I’m not particularly interested in this thread anyway; sorry for the distraction.June 9, 2023 12:34 am at 12:34 am #2198201
Sechel83, the first thing one has to know when trying to learn Kabbolah (or even Aggadah) is that one has to be extremely careful and many things there may not be taken at their literal reading!June 9, 2023 1:07 am at 1:07 am #2198218
Mdd, there are valid defenses for those practices; sukkah on shmini atzeres is based on a tosfos which can be understood to mean that if one would not normally sit in the sukkah due to it not being pleasant, one would not be allowed to do so due to bal tosif
This would not apply to eretz yisroel, however. I can find the tosfos if necessary.
Davening late…i wrote rav meir shapiros explanation above.
editedJune 9, 2023 8:05 am at 8:05 am #2198225
Avira, all those are post-factum (and faulty) defenses. The real reason is their understanding of Kabbola. They would do it even without those faulty explanations. The Shulchan Aruch says that one sits in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres. Many Chassidim would not sit there on Shmini Atzeres even if the weather is fabulous.
The Rebbes are “Torosom umanosom”? Even the extreme Litvaks would not award that ptur to big masmidim in t!mes of the Achronim!June 9, 2023 9:39 am at 9:39 am #2198264
Shmini Atzeres is a machlokes Rishonim. Same as tefillin on Chol Hamoed. Both depend on how to learn the conflicting sugyos. Already the Beis Yosef normalizes in the idea of arbitrating on Kabbalistic terms. This wasn’t accepted in Eastern Europe until the Gaon. The question depends on what the Gaon actually held versus what he did versus what he said versus how he is quoted. In over two hundred years of debate, there hasn’t been a satisfactory answer.June 9, 2023 9:40 am at 9:40 am #2198266
Contested minhagim from White Russia.
The three are:
1) Skipping shalosh seudos
2) Eating before shacharis
3) Not sleeping in the succah
They all had their rationales that aren’t so relevant today.
But people tend to keep their minhagim.
So I don’t see what the issue is.
Because it’s not just Chabad that does these things.June 9, 2023 9:43 am at 9:43 am #2198278
so back to my point: just send the original that says to daven to the rebbe what proof do you have that such a things exists? all you tell me is that it was in the older print so get me it! just bolognaJune 9, 2023 10:56 am at 10:56 am #2198307
Sechel, it’s not my problem if you can’t understand yiddish. It’s right there in the link i sent.June 9, 2023 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #2198322
As much as I don’t want to really get involved here, do you have any evidence at all that eating before davening was regional? I’ve never heard of anyone other than Chabad claiming that it’s ok. By the way, the Baal HaTanya was not matir. It’s a later Chabad minhag.
Not sleeping in the sukkah is not in-and-of itself controversial. It’s Chabad’s insistence that they are “machmir” to not sleep in the sukkah. As you know from the other thread, it bothers me when people are too insecure to just admit the fact that they’re relying on kulos.
“The Shulchan Aruch says that one sits in the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres.”
Nobody can call it a chiyuv. To get around stira and bal tosef, poskim are forced to say you just eat in the Sukkah because it’s nice, not because it’s a mitzvah. It might have been minhag klal yisroel, but if it’s not a chiyuv what’s the big deal with Chassidim not doing it?June 9, 2023 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #2198335
like i wrote before, read the words its talking about asking for a tikun.
anyways i have a great idea: all the litvaks who didn’t learn chassidus (a good amount of the seforim 10+ (i should really say 100+)) they should in stead of arguing about chassidus, which they know nothing about, there is plenty of arguments you can have with other litvaks, like brisk with rav shach, about voting, the get, or yeshiva university and הגאון האדיר ר’ יוסף דוב סולובייטשיק with brisk of yerushalayim, etc, etc,June 9, 2023 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #2198372
Neville, about sukkah on Shmini Atzeres double-check your Halochic facts, ok? It is a chiyuv.June 9, 2023 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #2198374DaMosheParticipant
I will admit, I often eat before davening. I have a medication I have to take first thing in the morning, and if I don’t take a bite with it, it can cause horrible nausea. So I take a handful of cheerios or chex and eat it when I take the medication, then I go to daven. Obviously this is not ideal, and is only for health purposes.June 9, 2023 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #2198398
“i didnt see those words there.
so the rebbe is explaining about asking about asking תיקונים
then the rebbe brings the zohar of ישראל אורייתא וקוב”ה כולא חד”
Are you sure those are the words of the Zohar?
The quote I saw was:
” קב”ה ואורייתא וישראל מתקשרין דא בדא”
That’s very, very different.June 9, 2023 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #2198401
Back to the OP, “lakewhut”:
That was a solid piece of Motzi shem ra on all of Klal Yisrael.
Especially given what is going on in the world, it is rather slanderous to write that Jews in general are not really waiting for Mashiach and that only Chabad does so.
In fact, Chabad is waiting for their Rebbe to return, which is why they may express more passion about it than do Jews who are waiting for (the actual) Mashiach from among the living.June 9, 2023 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #2198413
“Neville, about sukkah on Shmini Atzeres double-check your Halochic facts, ok? It is a chiyuv.”
How can it be both Sukkos and Shmini Atzeres at the same time? The reason we don’t take arba minin without a bracha on shmini atzeres is exactly this reason. The only reason it’s ok to sit in the sukkah is because it’s something one might do anyway for pleasure.
You’re actually just wrong on this, so I don’t know why you feel like speaking with such confidence.June 9, 2023 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #2198422
Neville, just look in Shulchan Aruch Orech Chaim 666 and 668 and in Mishnah Brurah there also. It is a good idea to learn the topic first.June 9, 2023 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #2198431
Neville is saying tosfos’ pshat; there are cholkim i believeJune 11, 2023 12:36 am at 12:36 am #2198522
Menachem…, I criticized the Mitteler Rebbe, not the Shulchan Aruch ha’Rav.June 11, 2023 1:56 am at 1:56 am #2198530
The org site “Identifying Chabad” has that and more there for you.June 11, 2023 1:57 am at 1:57 am #2198533
Mdd, the chabad rebbes had a lot of respect and were accepted as much as any other chasidus…June 11, 2023 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #2198693
its funny how litvaks think they are the policemen of the world!June 11, 2023 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #2198694
just pointing out that i just checked that website identifying chabad, 1) they take one sicha out of context, as i already discussed בעטן in a continuation to before, about asking for a tikun not praying,
2) these guys are against the alter rebbe too, so PSA, cuz some claim they are only against todays chabad, so good for them all all misnagdim who are against most of jews who are chassidish, talmidim of the baal shem tov, etc, so dont learn shulchan aruch harav, keep the cherem of the gra etc, zai gezunt un shtark.June 11, 2023 10:56 pm at 10:56 pm #2198718Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
sechel, you need to absorb the idea that shulchan aruch harav is one of many respectable seforim over last several centuries. If this happen to be your group’s leader – gezunte heig, learn it more than Mishna Berura, but there is no reason to look for a conspiracy of other people not focusing on it. If you want others interested in your Torah – behave and talk in a way that other people want to emaulate your ways…
Historically, chasidim separated from ashkenazim of their time, change minhagim, weakened kahal, diverted taxes through separate shechita, etc. So, it would not be reasonable for you to demand that others follow your opinions. You can ask or persuade, but not demand.June 12, 2023 6:19 am at 6:19 am #2198789
I cared for some Old Litvaks in a nursing home. All of them except for one, ate before shacharis. One of them had dementia. If he didn’t eat first, he would start davening maariv. (As the halacha is clear not to eat before maariv. I’m not here to criticize anybody on any of this. But what happened to that halacha?)June 12, 2023 9:33 am at 9:33 am #2198872
Nom, cholim are definitely allowed to eat before davening.
But there’s a huge difference between shacharis and mincha/maariv. The former is a pasuk and understood that it’s gaavah(this is why drinking water and tea, coffee, is allowed, because it’s not gaavah)
Before the latter, it’s simply because one might forget to daven
So if they have a set time, like in Yeshiva, it’s mutar; same if you have a shomer, etc..June 12, 2023 12:50 pm at 12:50 pm #2198954Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
re: shaharis. People used to daven early and then going (walking or riding a donkey) to work. Unless they were bnei melachim. Some still do this, but others daven at more convenient times. Maybe we should search for halochos for bnei melachim – were they supposed to also starve?June 12, 2023 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #2198965
“I cared for some Old Litvaks in a nursing home. All of them except for one, ate before shacharis. One of them had dementia. If he didn’t eat first, he would start davening maariv.”
You’re proving our point, not hurting it. This is like saying your wife had to be driven to the hospital on Shabbos to give birth, therefore it must be mutar to drive on Shabbos for everyone. This is a perfect example of the idiom: “the exception that proves the rule.”
“Neville, just look in Shulchan Aruch Orech Chaim 666 and 668 and in Mishnah Brurah there also”
OK, not sure why you thought it would change my mind as I’ve learned it before. Addressing the topic of sleeping and even eating foods that wouldn’t normally require a leisheiv basukkah, the MB (and everyone but the Gra) are meikel and seem to confirm the reasoning that you would only be doing these things l’shem mitzvah, whereas eating a meal you might do on an ordinary day anyway. The same logic works for not taking arba minim. If the whole reason for holding l’halacha that you must eat in the Sukkah on Shmini Atzeres hinges on it being normal to eat outside anyway, then it seems perfectly reasonable that that norm could change based on time and location.
There is only one group I’ve ever seen that really treats it like a chiyuv and will even refuse to drink water outside the sukkah on Shmini Atzeres; ironically, that group is Chabad.June 12, 2023 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2199037
In the old world before electricity and standard time, these things were very different. Your extrapolating from our customs to theirs.June 12, 2023 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2199038
That was the regimen of the Old Litvaks. The Yeshivaliet adapted. (In some non halachic ways as well.) I thought this was known.
When Chabad adapts everything goes bust. So they hold on tightly.
Kol hakavod. What’s the problem that Chabad is so tenacious about their minhagim? We could find these follies everywhere. Is it because Chabad minhagim are strange to us?June 12, 2023 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #2199074anonymous JewParticipant
The minhag/halacha about not eating before shacharis was based upon totally different circumstances than today.
In the alte heim, there was no electricity or refrigeration. Even preparing a cup of coffee was a major deal. You had to rebuild the fire, grind the beans etc which took time and caused genuine concern that you’d miss shacharis. Today, flip on the light in the kitchen, pop in a kcup and in less than 5 minutes you have your coffee and can daven with a better frame of mind. And, it’s not gaava if you drink the coffee at 5:50 and the next minyan is at 6:30. You’re not delaying davening .June 12, 2023 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #2199088
Anon… Please learn the following clear sources before making such statements, as they are demonstrably incorrect and might lead others to sin.
Eating before shacharis: gemara brochos 10a, based on the pasuk lo lochlo al hadam – it is assur to eat before praying for your blood.
Shu”a orach chayim – 89, 3-4.
There is a shailoh if it’s deoraysoh or only derabonon, but an asmachta.
It’s definitely not a “minhag”June 12, 2023 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #2199103
It has nothing to do with the effort made in preparing food. The rishonim (mentioned by the Tur in the above siman) say it is gaavah to eat before davening, and therefore it is allowed to drink water, tea, coffee because it isn’t gaavah…
Many teshuvos have been written about drinking coffee with milk. Rav moshe has a heter because in our time, it’s so typical to drink it with milk and sugar that it’s not gaavah, but others disagreed. The prevailing custom is to drink coffee with milk and sugar.
However a fancy starbucks type drink would definitely be assur.
The poskim make no mention of the effort required in preparing the food, nor do they talk at all about missing davening.
Missing davening applies to mincha and maariv, as shu”a paskens.June 12, 2023 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #2199104
In the gemaras time, there were many foods that were readily available. One could take a bite of bread, vegetables, apples… No such distinction is made.
Actually, the nosei keilil are all matir drinking coffee, because it’s not gaavah, even though in their time it definitely took considerable effort to make it, as you described.
In addition, what if someone else offered it it to you? The whole premise is based on not learning the sources or even reading them at all. Please do not make halachik pronouncements without doing so.June 12, 2023 8:06 pm at 8:06 pm #2199109
the reason chabad eats before davening is simple. the shulchan aruch harav paskens that if one needs to eat to be able to have more kavana by davening, its permited. the custom in chabad is to learn 1-2 hours (at least) of chassidus before davening – to prapare for davening – learning about gadlus ha-kel, then to daven which is a major focus – (also mikvah, hisbonenus, long davening (a good few hours) (the alter rebbe says in tanya that todays days davening is the ikur avoda (not torah – like in the time of gemara))
so most people would be very hungry if they did not eatJune 12, 2023 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #2199121
I’m shocked by those who attack Chabad for not sleeping in Sukkah, yet defend not eating on Shmino Atzeres.
Regarding sleeping the Shulchan Aruch says that today most are נוהג not to sleep, and give a few reasons. Chabad explains another reason according to our mesorah from the Mitteler Rebbe.
Regarding eating in the Sukkah on Shmini Atzeres, the Shulchan Aruch writes that there are those who don’t eat on Shmini Atzeres ואנחנו מנהג – This is NOT A MINHAG!
There is no classic halachic source for not eating in Sukkah on Shmini Atzeres other than a mesorah from the Baal Shem Tov (which, btw is not accepted in Chabad) yet everyone is fine with that.
The vina gaon writes that one who doesn’t sleep in the Sukkah on Shmini Atzeres is chayav misah for violating divrei sofrim.
Certainly so regarding eating!
The anti chabad bias is clear as day.June 12, 2023 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #2199126
Neville, you clearly misunderstood the sources and missed a befeirushe Mishna Brurah that says it is a chiyuv.
Menachem…, the Ramoh says that ha’medakdekim be’mitsvos sleep in the sukkah. And, basically, all those heteirm are limudei zechus and not real, strong heteirim. The problem with the Chabad approach is that you go against opene Gemoros because of a personal feeling of the Mitteler Rebbe which was based on the Kabbalistic knowledge. Chazal also knew about the makifei Binah, you know.June 13, 2023 1:09 am at 1:09 am #2199177
“Neville, you clearly misunderstood the sources”
What I’ve been saying is not an anti-Shmini-Atzeres-sukkah specific approach; it is the standard understanding of this halacha. You clearly know enough to have heard what I’m talking about. I don’t know why you keep avoiding the issue of doing it l’shem mitzvah.
You told me to look at the sources, I did. When those sources didn’t end up saying exactly what you wanted them to say, you decide to just accuse me of not understanding them.June 13, 2023 1:09 am at 1:09 am #2199178
Sechel, chas veshalom to say that the tanya says that tefilah is the ikkar and not Torah; i don’t know how they twist the sefer, but I’ve learned it, and the way he describes torah is food for the neshoma, dveikus that no other mitzva – including tefilah – brings(perek 5, and 25)(or 23, i forget))
And allowing an issur that might be deoraysoh is not “simple.”
And where do people get a heter to eat whatever they want? The shu”a harav doesn’t say to have a meal. He says you can eat IF you need to for kavanah; who decided that everyone needs to eat to have kavanah? I daven with more kavanah by shacharis than i do by mincha, after i have eaten; I’m not the only one. How can you be koveah a minhag/heter that’s universal when people are different?
As for learning about Hashem before davening; who says such preparation is allowed if it’ll make you have to violate an issur of eating? Maybe the shu”a harav allows eating in order to do the basic mitzvah of tefilah with kavanah; who says it’s mutar for tosefes?June 13, 2023 1:10 am at 1:10 am #2199179
Menachem, you’re confusing halacha with mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer that you’re not mitztayer ad infinitum. The latter is purim torah, not a “mesorah” – it’s from the last rebbe.June 13, 2023 1:14 am at 1:14 am #2199181
Correction to my previous post:
The Shulchan Aruch says ואינו מנהג
(Nasty spell check)
Please explain why all attack Chabad for דוקא being נוהג like an accepted leniency, while I have yet to see anyone attack the chassidish velt (and many litvishers) for going AGAINST the halacha in Shulchan Aruch and Mishnah Brurah.
Again, Shulchan Aruch mentions the minhag of not sleeping in the Sukkah and supports it (albeit בדיעבד), while it mentions the Shmini Atzeres minhag and CONDEMNS it!
I am not chas v’shalom pushing to attack anyone’s minhagim. I think every yid should follow the mesorah from his rabbeim and the tzaddikim of previous generations.
I am just upset by the blatant double standard.
If it’s a mesorah from the Baal Shem Tov passed down by polisher chassidim – it is welcomed with open arms.
If it’s a mesorah from the Mitteler Rebbe (during the times of the Baal HaTanya) passed down by Chabad rabbeim – it is “akiras mitzvos” (ח”ו עפ”ל)!June 13, 2023 7:34 am at 7:34 am #2199191
Neville, GO AND LEARN THE SOURCES. OK? THEY SAY CLEARLY WHAT I TOLD YOU.June 13, 2023 7:34 am at 7:34 am #2199192
Menachem, real Litvaks have a problem with both.June 13, 2023 10:34 am at 10:34 am #2199250
Mdd, the number of real misnagdim is not very high in our time; the Brisker mesorah is to accept chasidim; they even prefer to marry chasidishe women. It was explained to me that briskers see the vast amount of ways to learn a sugya, and can justify even strange minhagim(without following it themselves)
Whereas hashkofos…. Are more clear cut.June 13, 2023 11:25 am at 11:25 am #2199296
about tefilah being the ikur avodah look in kuntres acharon דף קסב.
talmud torah was the ikur avoda in the times of gemarah – דף קיב. now is tzedakah
i did make a mistake and mix them together.
anyway, learn the whole tanya beiyun (today there are plenty of biurim printed)June 13, 2023 11:26 am at 11:26 am #2199299
sorry mistake קיד not קיב.
just because you saw one person have a meal doesn’t mean that thats what chabad does, i saw a litvak come to shul late, skip half of davening cuz shulchan aruch says to skip if you come late, but you shouldnt be coming late, i also saw a jew speaking lashon hara – that means its accepted?
so the way the baal shem tov thought is that when you see a nother yid doing something wrong, we look at ourselves and say that im not devoting myself enough to davening, not him (the litvak i saw).
anyway learn the first 4 volumes of likutai sichos, and if you still have any questions on chabad, then come back, some people learn a bit on tanya and think they understand it, then claim all their claims, you dont understand anything.June 13, 2023 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #2199308
Sechel, are you ever going to understand that outside of your community, the writings of the Lubavitcher rebbe in likutei sichos etc… have little influence?
I’m not interested in reading his thoughts on what is more important in my life. Zos hatorah lonsehey muchlefes. It doesn’t change. Talmud torah keneged kulam – the rambam also writes that there is no mitzvah “that is keneged all the mitzvos” meaning other mitzvos it says “kneged kulam” like yishuv ererz yisroel etc., But none of them are equal to Torah.
And he was after the gemara.
I’m also not interested in the countless commentaries chabad churns out on tanya; it’s a sefer like any other chasidishe sefer, snd it can be learned the same way. I learn it with as much iyun as i did sfas emes and meor aynayim. The tanya actually clarified a lot of ideas for me which i learned in meor aynayim.
I looked up the source in kuntres acharon. Of course, he says no such thing. He says that the ikkar “birur” is through tefilah, even though Torah is higher. That doesn’t mean our ikkar avodah and time investment should be in tefilah. It means that tefilah accomplishes something important which Torah doesn’t in our time. This would actually explain why people who are patur from davening because they’re toraso umnaso (rebbes, according to rav meir shapiro) still daven, because there are things which tefilah alone can accomplish.
It’s also not even his own chidush – he’s just quoting the Arizal!
And he doesn’t mention “the time of the gemara,” rather he just says that “bazman hazeh the ikkar birur is through tefilah” – i don’t know when bazman hazeh started; maybe it was after the churban?
Whoever taught you tanya really did a number on you. That’s a problem with chabad; too much chiddushim on esoteric and lofty concepts which lead to forsaking basic yiddishkeit.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.