Chalav yisroel

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  • This topic contains 102 replies, has 30 voices, and was last updated by  DaMoshe 6 months ago.
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  • #1680772

    Mmarchette
    Participant

    Why is chalav yisroel yogurt sweeter than chalav stam yogurt? Why do the chalav yisroel companies need to add double the amount of sugar?!

    #1680919

    Joseph
    Participant

    How do you know? You shouldn’t have been eating Cholov Stam!

    #1680961

    Yogurt has basically three types of sugars:

    Lactose – a naturally occurring sugar found in milk;
    Fruit (in fruit flavored yogurt) – a mix of sucrose, fructose and glucose;
    Sugar – “free sugar” added.

    When yogurt is made from skim milk or low fat milk, the companies often need to add sugar to compensate for the lost lactose sugar.

    Not all sugars are to be treated equally and there is “bad” sugar that should be limited in our diets vs sugar that doea does not harm healthy people..

    Even checking the nutritional facts for gm of sugar may not reveal the breakdown of the sugar sources.

    The cholov akum yogurts vary widely in sugar content: The lowest supermarket brands have less than 5 gm sugar, while certain varieties of Dannon has 12 gm sugar, Stoneyfield has 24 gm, Yoplait has 27 gm,

    To say cholov yisroel brands have significantly more sugar is simply factually inaccurate.

    #1680990

    bk613
    Participant

    Maybe Mmarchette used to be modern orthodox and was chozer b’tsheuva because of your posts, isn’t that why you post in the coffee room, like you claimed in the Watching sports thread? You should be kinder to those who you helped bring back to “true Torah yiddeshkeit”.

    #1681002

    Joseph
    Participant

    bk, there’s emes to that, yasher koach. But, still, he should have some busha that he ever ate it and not casually refer to it without acknowledging the error.

    #1681014

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You really need to do a better job being dan l’kaf z’chus. Probably Mmarchette has a non Jewish co-worker who tried both.

    🙄

    #1681016

    Heargod
    Participant

    Joseph. Be dun lecaf zechus and not accuse falsely.
    The person probably was looking to loose weight and started searching for yogurt low in sugar, at which point they realized that all the low sugar yogurts where not chuluv Stam.
    This is not to mention that making someone feel bad for following the ruling of Rav Moshe Feinstein that chuluv Stam is fine, is also something one should not judge let alone make the accused feel bad about

    #1681033

    Joseph
    Participant

    I guess humor is dead.

    #1681036

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Humor? I thought you were here for kiruv.

    #1681034

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Most of the more contemporary psaks from leading rabbonim against using dairy products made from cholov stam take the opposite position from Reb Moshe’s heter. Reb Moshe was mattir cholov stam based on dairy processing plants being inspected by the government, and government inspection of dairy farms was a non-issue due to the concept of “bo l’yad Yisroel”. Under the current food safety rules, however, government inspections are primarily focused on dairy farms , and dairy plant inspection is no longer central for the heter.

    #1681042

    knaidlach
    Participant

    R’ Moishe’s hetter was limited to a specific situation only. unfortunately, it’s being used as a regular hetter. especially when its so easy to get cholov Yisroel.

    #1681056

    Heargod
    Participant

    mr. gadolhador. I don’t understand, doesn’t the o u inspect the plant? if the gov inspects the farm and the o u inspects the food plant and make sure the plant is using chuluv stam milk doesn’t that make the finished product kosher. ak+bk = kosher
    now u can hold by your “contemporary rabbi” but u cant judge others for holding by Rav Moshe Feinstein.

    #1681064

    These days American Yiden travel on vacation or business to various places and use the cholov akum there – places like the Caribbean Islands, Asia, cruise ships etc where there is NO government inspection at all. The michshal is tremendous! Many are used to drinling cholov akum and continue doing so without realizing the grave issur – and there is no heter outside of America (including South America or Central America)! For this reason alone one should be medayek on cholov Yisroel, something that our forefathers were mosser nefesh for in the Old Country.

    #1681069

    Heargod
    Participant

    kneidlach. please show your source that Rav Moshe limited his “hetter”

    #1681075

    funnybone
    Participant

    Knaidlach: for which specific situation was R Moshes psak?

    #1681076

    funnybone
    Participant

    Joseph: is it possible that you murdered humor?

    #1681077

    sifsei chachamim
    Participant

    Reb Moshe clearly wrote that in a place where cholov yisrael is available you should not rely on his heter.

    #1681313

    Mmarchette
    Participant

    Interesting. Thank you for this factual reply.

    #1681408

    knaidlach
    Participant

    heargod
    it seems that you didnt see the tshuva of R’ moishe permitting cholov stam but you are not asking anyone for a source as to where that teshuva can be found. and you are OK to rely on what you heard from someone that heard from someone etc. but for the limitation on the hetter you need a source…..
    I dont have IGROS MOSHE next to me now.

    #1681413

    knaidlach
    Participant

    gedoilei yisroel would advise people that complained haveing sfaikos in emunah, to keep cholov yisroel

    #1681433

    funnybone
    Participant

    Knaidlach: gedolei yisroel advised not to accept sttements in their name.

    #1681466

    knaidlach
    Participant

    so can someone here find the teshuva of R’ Moshe where He discusses cholov yisroel and posted here?

    #1681486

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    REb. G. dont know if our fore fathers were “moser nefesh” when it was relativelyy easy for one to walk to his neighbors farm to milk the cow as I heard from my neighbor who was born in a polish shtetl and survived the death camps.In fact , the pri megadim paskens that if the town does not raise non kosher animals one can trust all the milk.

    #1681506

    No one would consider using goyish wine – even if one had a heter. Yet cholov akum is taken lightly in America. I was told by my grandparents that in Old Country they were moser nefeshfor cholov yisroel.

    lacis asks how difficult was it to walk over to a neighbors farm – I dont know, I wasnt there, but that is what I was told…maybe the goyish neighbor wasnt too happy to have a Yid stand over him when he milked the cow...I dont know, but that is the mesorah I was told.

    We live in an age of heteri – seeking a heter for anything that makes our lives easier. Imagine the mesirus nefesh of not having a Haagen Daaz icecream which isnt cholov yisoel! Or to pass up those Christies Oreo cookies because we are Yidden that dont look for heterim - mamash mesiras nefesh! I wont even mention giving up on the Hershy chocolate – that would be a sin.

    #1681574

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Rebbitzen, use apostrophes, not backticks.

    #1681580

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No one would consider using goyish wine – even if one had a heter.

    Anyone who drinks wine served by a non Jewish waiter is relying on a heter.

    #1681586

    ModernMisnaged
    Participant

    @gadolhadorah, FYI, The OU has an article on this question, in which Rav Belsky CLEARLY PASKENS that the heter still applies today! if you want to see it for yourself, it’s called: Rav Moshe’s heter of cholov stam revisited.

    #1681587

    funnybone
    Participant

    Sifsei chachomim: did you see that yourself or is it hearsay?

    #1681612

    funnybone
    Participant

    What’s the heter for wine from a non Jew?
    R Moshe felt that chalav company, as he called it isn’t chalav Akum. Do not call that relying on a heter.

    #1681635

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Do not call that relying on a heter.

    Why not?

    #1681634

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What’s the heter for wine from a non Jew?

    If it’s flash pasteurized, many poskim consider it mevushal, so you can drink it even if poured by a non Jewish.

    #1681630

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    That is how Frum uneducated people make parnassah. Come up with cholov Yisroel and tell people that ou and ok certified milk is not good enough. What a bunch of malarkey. The US regulatory system does not allow for foreign matter in dairy milk.

    #1681607

    “Anyone who drinks wine served by a non Jewish waiter is relying on a heter.”

    Because some readers “pasken” based on the gedolim of the CR, a quick review of hilchos stam yainom:

    The “heter” (or issur) is Yoreh Deah 124 which rules that if a non-Jew merely touched the bottle of wine, the wine is permissible. However, if the non-Jew touched the wine itself, with his hands or even his feet, all of the wine is prohibited.

    If the non-Jew “shook” (shichshuch) the wine, in the times of the Talmud, ‘shichshuch’ was considered to be an act of pagan worship. Therefore, even if the non-Jew does not lift the bottle, if he shakes it, the wine is prohibited. Similarly, if he pours the wine into a decanter, or spins the bottle with a stick, that is also considered to be a form of shichshuch and the wine is prohibited.

    The non-Jew gently moves the wine to put something else in its place. He rules, based upon the Beit Yosef, that if this happens in front of a Jew, this is considered to be “nianua kezat” and the wine is permissible.

    When a non-Jew actually pours the wine. If he pours the wine into a cup, he may not drink or even derive benefit from the wine. Also, even the wine which remains in the bottle is prohibited, due to the concept of “nizok.” According to this rule, an uninterrupted flow of wine (nizok) from the cup to the bottle prohibits the wine left in the bottle.

    The same would apply to wine which was poured by a Jewish person who publically violates the Shabbat, many poskim prohibit wine which was poured by a mechalel Shabbas b’farhesia.

    These are serious and complex halachos – one cannot pasken based on “Sevoras HaBeten” (his own gut instinct) or “Regesh HaLev”.

    #1681642

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Come up with cholov Yisroel and tell people that ou and ok certified milk is not good enough. What a bunch of malarkey. The US regulatory system does not allow for foreign matter in dairy milk.

    You seem to be unaware of the fact that many poskim disagreed with R Moshe’s heter, and that even he said it’s better not to rely on it (and didn’t personally rely on it).

    #1681652

    ModernMisnaged
    Participant

    @bk613, cholov stam is not a Modern Orthodox Thing, plenty of litvishe people eat it.

    #1681653

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rebbetzin, when you copied from Daily Halacha, you left some parts out, making some sentences incomprehensible.

    #1681663

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    There are several Tshuvos where R’ Moshe Z”L restricts the usage of Chalav Hacompanies (as he called it) to times and places where Chalav Yisrael isn’t available. Recently, a such a letter a revealed for the first time. I’d upload it if I could, but I don’t know how to. It’s a handwritten letter in R Moshes own writing to a certain Reb Yitzchak Hoffman, who was shocked to see the Maimonodes Hospital serving Chalav Akum. When he asked them how they can do such a thing, he was told R Moshe allows it. So he wrote to R Moshe, and this is what R Moshe answered:
    (It’s handwritten, and not easy to decipher, any mistakes are mine.)
    ה’ מרחשון תשכ”ג
    בדבר חלב הקאמפאנייס אף שיש טעמים להקל (….) שהוא רק במקום שליכא חלב ישראל שהוא תחת השגחת רבנים יראי ה’ אבל במקום שאיכא חלב ישראל שהוא בהשגחה וכדומה כל עניני חלב צריך להחמיר וכ”ש אלו שבבתיהם נזהרין לאכול רק מחלב ישראל שבהשגחה שצריכין (…..) גם שחשש ענין (נזהרים?), וממילא גם בהאספיטעלער (……….) במאכלי כשר שיש להם לתקן מה שאפשר להם בזה להשיג מאכלי חלב בהשגחה כי בפה נוא יארק ליכא בזה שעת הדחק.
    ולכל הפחות ישיגו מאכלי חלב שבהשגחה לאלו שנזהרין בזה בבתיהם ולא לכשל אותם ח”ו שיאכלו שם (שום?) מה שנזהרים שלא לאכול.
    נאום (חתימתו)

    #1681660

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “If it’s flash pasteurized, many poskim consider it mevushal, so you can drink it even if poured by a non Jewish.”

    You’re original statement was unconditional, implying that every case of mevushal wine is a heter.

    Also, I’m not sure it’s a good mashal anyway. Reb Moshe never claimed chalav stam is literally chalav Yisroel, whereas in this case the shittah is that it is 100% mevushal (I thought).

    #1681661

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    To those of you that have an issue with Rav Moshe’s heter, the non cholov Yisroel milks back then we’re not yet ou certified. Hence, he recommended Chalav Yisroel, if feasible and available.

    Today however, ou certified milk is plentiful and this hashgacha is as good or better than cholov Yisroel.

    #1681662

    Daas Yo – the same halochos are on the cRc website too.

    #1681673

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You’re original statement was unconditional, implying that every case of mevushal wine is a heter.

    I’m under the impression that almost all commercially “mevushal” wine is flash pasteurized.

    #1681675

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Reb Moshe never claimed chalav stam is literally chalav Yisroel

    He actually did. The heter is based on anan sahadi being the halachic equivalent of a Jew seeing the milking.

    #1681676

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    To those of you that have an issue with Rav Moshe’s heter, the non cholov Yisroel milks back then we’re not yet ou certified. Hence, he recommended Chalav Yisroel, if feasible and available.

    Today however, ou certified milk is plentiful and this hashgacha is as good or better than cholov Yisroel.

    That’s a total fabrication. Even the OU acknowledges the validity of the position to be makpid on CY.

    #1681679

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “Today however, ou certified milk is plentiful and this hashgacha is as good or better than cholov Yisroel.”

    Lol. Freilichen Purim.

    #1681680

    funnybone
    Participant

    I may be wrong, but I don’t think R Moshe ever said not to rely on his heter. Similarly, he didn’t say that he doesn’t rely on it. He did say that for himself he is machmir.

    #1681681

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1681685

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I may be wrong, but I don’t think R Moshe ever said not to rely on his heter.

    You are wrong. Rav Moshe writes that where CY is available, even at increased inconvenience and price (not significant), one should buy CY.

    The heter is still valid, but he’s saying that where it’s not too difficult, one should not rely on it.

    #1681693

    funnybone
    Participant

    Who holds that flash pasteurized isn’t considered mevushal?

    #1681703

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Who holds that flash pasteurized isn’t considered mevushal?

    Rav YS Elyashiv zt”l, Rav SZ Auerbach zt”l, Rav BZ Abba Shaul, zt”l.

    #1681726

    jdb
    Participant

    Rav Moshe was not the only posek to be mattir chalav Stam in the US, and there is nothing wrong with someone paskening by Rav Moshe or their Rav who holds by chalav Stam.

    Please spend more time focusing on what comes out of your mouth than what goes into others.

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