Chalav yisroel

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  • #1681758

    yudel
    Participant

    There is no such thing as cholov stam anymore (except Germany), it’s called akum or cholov treif, per Igros Moshe, Rav Eliyashev, Rav Shmuel Wosner, etc. due to the 4-8% percent of the veterinarian procedures on cows that make them treif.
    Rab Belsky’s heter is not based on the established facts the Vets do to the cows.

    #1681764

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Yudel: Why wouldn’t that make all of our beef treif as well?

    #1681784

    “There is no such thing as cholov stam anymore (except Germany), it’s called akum or cholov treif, per Igros Moshe, Rav Eliyashev, Rav Shmuel Wosner, etc. ”

    People “feel better” when they call Cholov Akum – “Cholov Stam”! It sounds better. Makes it kind of parave: no “special hechsher” but no issur either.

    Marketing, branding form our perception and creates our beliefs.

    Calling it “Cholov stam” brings self-absolution when eating the Haagen Daaz.

    #1681886

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There is no such thing as cholov stam anymore (except Germany), it’s called akum or cholov treif, per Igros Moshe

    Where in Igros Moshe?

    Rab Belsky’s heter is not based on the established facts the Vets do to the cows.

    Rav Belsky’s heter indeed seems weak, but others are mattir based on bittul (R’ Yecheskel Roth, and I believe that’s the basis on which R’ Dovid Feinstein is mattir as well.

    #1681887

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yudel: Why wouldn’t that make all of our beef treif as well?

    Why are you assuming that they do the DA procedure on beef cattle?

    #1681899

    Mammele
    Participant

    DA: What do they do with dairy cows when their milk production decreases due to age etc?

    The question should be if they look out for scar tissue from the DA procedure after the cow is slaughtered. Which would make sense if it actually renders the animal treif.

    #1681913

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Nothing like someone with an agenda.

    #1681896

    Uncle Ben
    Participant

    The Igros Moshe refers to non cholov yisroel milk as cholov ha”companies”.

    #1681938

    MDG
    Participant

    In the Igrot Moshe,he calls it “Chalav Companies”, with a transliteration into Hebrew.
    Apparently, he is saying that one cannot get a bottle of milk from a small independent dairy farm directly as there would be no govt supervision.

    #1681964

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    “Never seen a camel on the NY Thruway”
    In the category of “don’t always believe what you read on the internet”, the following comments were attributed to Rav Moishe’s son-in-law, Rav Tendler, on the occasions of Rav Moishe’s 25th yahrtzeit.

    Eating non-glatt kosher meat is not the only controversial stance Rav Moshe took. More famously, Rav Moshe ruled that all milk in the United States certified by the government as coming from a cow or other kosher animal is considered Chalav Yisrael. People still debate what Rav Moshe’s “true” opinion on the topic is, but, according to Ravi Tendler, “He meant exactly what he said. What he said was that we only drink Chalav Yisrael, but milk in America is Chalav Yisrael because the halacha says, ‘Im ein tamei b’edro’ – if the farmer does not have any non-kosher animals on his farm, then you don’t have to watch him. All you have to do is stay outside the farm to make sure no one comes in with a camel or a donkey.” , Rav Moshe argues that one may rely on government supervision to ensure that milk is kosher, but Rabbi Tendler said that in personal conversations, his father-in-law often stressed that dairy farmers in America simply do not have camels and other non-kosher animals on their premises. “He used to say to me, ‘We go to the Catskill Mountains on vacation; I never saw a camel. I never saw anybody milking a camel.’ We spoke about this very often and really in a kind of light mood. He didn’t understand what [his opponents] didn’t understand [and why they were attacking him].”

    Everyone in Rav Moshe’s house drank regular milk, Rabbi Tendler said, and the only reason Rav Moshe himself did not do so is because he did not want “to be mattir neder” – to formally change his lifelong practice, dating to the first 40 years of his life in Europe, of drinking “traditional” Chalav Yisrael”

    #1681967

    Joseph
    Participant

    Which means that if US Gov / FDA rules, regulations, practices and/or laws have changed (as many indeed have) since Rav Moshe’s psak, even Rav Moshe agrees that his original Cholov Stam psak isn’t applicable today as the psak was very specifically based on FDA/US Gov regulations at the time the psak was given.

    #1682001

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    R’ Moshe zt”l picked his teshuvos for the Igros very carefully. They were meant to apply to the klal as a whole, and not just for specific cases. Letters or teshuvos that he wrote which are NOT in the Igros aren’t necessarily intended for the entire public.
    The teshuvos which R’ Moshe put into the Igros Moshe don’t say anything about shas hadchak for using chalav ha’Companies. One letter which states it was written to a yeshiva which was thinking of using chalav haCompanies due to the cost of chalav Yisrael. R’ Moshe held strongly that a yeshiva should use chalav Yisrael, so he wrote it should only be done b’shas hadchak.
    Any teshuva which states shas hadchak was not meant for the public. It’s only modern-day kanoim, who are trying to show how holy they are, who are now pushing this agenda, trying to claim that R’ Moshe was really opposed to it.

    #1682008

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    Gadol: Seems odd that, based on your story, Reb Moshe’s shittah was identical to the Pri Chodosh. His heter as it is written is not at all as you present it. The lack of camels in the neighborhood is not relevant to Reb Moshe’s heter.

    Not to accidentally be motzi shem ra, but is the rabbi mentioned in Gadol’s post the one who is known to fraudulently claim that Reb Moshe said/wrote things which he never really did?

    #1682212

    Heargod
    Participant

    Mr dasyuchid. Please site your sources for statements on Rav moshe. Ex safer, page and paragraph
    U should in general always site your sources for your statement

    #1682105

    MrSarahLevine613
    Participant

    “Not to accidentally be motzi shem ra, but is the rabbi mentioned in Gadol’s post the one who is known to fraudulently claim that Reb Moshe said/wrote things which he never really did?”

    The quote above (regarding milk) i heard many times from Rav Tender about 30 years ago or so (pretty much verbaitim). As to “fraud” — again — fraud means that he is saying things that he knew to be false. What are you referring to.

    #1682476

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Any teshuva which states shas hadchak was not meant for the public.

    The teshuva to R’ Weinfeld was published in the מדריך לכשרות, and R’ Binyamin Forst shlit”a reprinted in in his sefer. So the Debriciner Rov zt”l and yblch”t Rav Forst Shlit”a don’t feel that way.

    Please site your sources for statements on Rav moshe. Ex safer, page and paragraph
    U should in general always site your sources for your statement

    Which statement? Here is one source: (page 6)

    http://www.israel613.com/books/MADRICH_KASHRUT17-18-H.pdf

    בע”ה
    ב’ דר”ח תמוז תשט”ז,

    מע”כ ידידי המאו”ג מהר”ר אברהם וויינפעלד שליט”א
    שלום וברכה כל הימים

    הנה בדבר חלב הקאמפאניעס שבמדינותנו ודאי יש טעמים להתיר לומר שאינם בכלל האיסור שאמרו חז”ל וכדחזינן שהרבה מקילין בזה מפני הדוחק, בהרבה מקומות. אבל במקום שאפשר להשיג אף שעולה בקצת טרחה יותר ואף ביוקר מעט, חלב של ישראל, אין מן הראוי להקל בזה וצריכים להשיג חלב של ישראל

    והנני ידידו
    משה פיינשטיין

    #1682488

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    What are you referring to.

    Halachic definition of death.

    Also, that quote regarding milk is contradicted by what we have from R’ Moshe’s writings.

    #1682573

    sam4321
    Participant

    This topic is a waste of time . Those who want to believe what they want will not change their mind regardless. If anyone wants to know what Rav Moshe really held let them go speak with Rav Moshe’s relatives. Also the idea that Chalav Yisrael is equal to chalav hacompanies is not true. Chalav hacompanies takes much longer to spoil . It also should be noted that the Pri Chadash heter(used by Jews of Amsterdam and himself) is not the heter of the Rav Moshe. Rav Soloveitchik held of an additional heter as well. Rav Moshe held that yedia is like seeing,plus mirsas. Even if you want to say that the Teshuvos are the end all,Rav Moshe clearly states not consider one who relies on the heter an avrayon. Let everyone follow their Rabbi,and for those who want to know lmaaseh ask around.

    #1682619

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    “Not to accidentally be motzi shem ra, but is the rabbi mentioned in Gadol’s post the one who is known to fraudulently claim that Reb Moshe said/wrote things which he never really did?”

    Allegedly.

    #1682618

    Sechel HaYashar
    Participant

    All those saying that Rav Moshe Z”l didn’t limit his Heter to extenuating circumstances, please see the letter I typed from him on the previous page. Seems many here missed it.

    There is a story told (like all stories, if it confirms your position you’ll believe it, if not, not) that R Moshes daughter in law once gave him something Milchig to eat, and afterward realized that it wasn’t Chalav Yisrael, and told him. R Moshe immediately went to throw it up.
    (I heard this from a prominent Rov, who heard it from a Yid who lived in R Moshes building.)

    #1682626

    sam4321
    Participant

    The main reason I do not like this story ,is then you have the problem with the Gemara in Chullin 7a.

    #1682637

    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Moshe clearly wrote (in the Igros) that a Yirei Shamayim (“Baal Nefesh”) should not use Cholov Stam (“HaCompanies”).

    #1682643

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Neville: If you read carefully, I prefaced the story with the usual disclaimer about stories repeated on the internet BUT this particular attribution from Rav Tendler has been repeated/posted on multiple occasions. If you want to get into the whole Rav Tendler/?Rav Moishe Z;TL issues regarding credibility of Rav Tendler’s recollections of his father-in-law, save it for another thread.

    #1682655

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If you want to get into the whole Rav Tendler/?Rav Moishe Z;TL issues regarding credibility of Rav Tendler’s recollections of his father-in-law, save it for another thread.

    That’s ridiculous. You can’t quote someone with questionable credibility and not expect it to be pointed out.

    #1682656

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The main reason I do not like this story ,is then you have the problem with the Gemara in Chullin 7a.

    Meh. He held it was muttar meikar hadin.

    If you still think he wouldn’t have drank cholov stam, so say it was cholov Yisroel but in a cholov stam container, but he wasn’t machzik himself a tzaddik. Either way, it’s a kashya oif a ma’aseh.

    #1682660

    Abraham84
    Participant

    Ay least the people who eat jalav akum have the eter of R Moshe. I don’t think that any Rab has given an eter for judge any person or speak about anyone without even knowing anything about that person.
    We must take care of what we take out of our mouths as much as what we take in.

    #1682694

    Talmidchochom
    Participant

    Most, if not all, cholov ha”companies” have top notch reliable hashgachas. The same hashgachas that all you two and three year olds wasting time on this topic use for other foods. Where do you all come off talking about Rav Moshe Feinstein Zecher Tzaddik Levrocha as if he was your chavrusah or peer? You should be careful how you speak. That is a bigger issue than cholov Yisroel.

    #1682736

    Joseph
    Participant

    According to the heter for Cholov HaCompanies/Stam, you should not need any hechsher whatsoever to use non-certified milk in the United States. You should be able to freely drink any American milk even with no hechsher at all. The heter says you can simply rely on the US government and the FDA.

    So why don’t user of the Cholov Stam heter use any Cholov Stam milk or products that has no hechsher?

    #1682778

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    There are certain thread topics that seem to have a resiliency that defies understanding and keep reappearing at regular intervals under slightly different headings. M’shenichnas Adar (rishon or sheini) marbim b’recycled CR threads.

    As to DY’s skepticism of Rav Tendler’s credibility, I’ll repeat my original admonition to take anything attributed to anonymous internet sources with a grain of salt. I happen to have great respect for Rav Tendler as a talmid chacham, scientist and ethicist while understanding others may disagree. On the narrow inyan of cholov Yisroel, there seem to be a number of others who hold by similar views of Rav Moishe’s original statements and practices.

    #1682887

    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “As to DY’s skepticism of Rav Tendler’s credibility, I’ll repeat my original admonition to take anything attributed to anonymous internet sources with a grain of salt.”

    Meaning we should be skeptical of it, yet our skepticism seems to bother you. Was it a hollow disclaimer?

    If you take the greater Rav Tendler controversy out of the question, the story still makes no sense as you presented it. It seems to say that behind closed doors, Reb Moshe held like the Pri Chodosh, and his teshuvah is just something he told to the masses. There’s no reason to believe he would do that.

    #1682847

    ModernMisnaged
    Participant

    @talmidchochom, I absolutely agree. Some people speak of Reb Moshe zt’l as a rav in a small town that came up with a heter. He was THE GADOL HADOR in America! And the Igros Moshe is a masterpiece! Have some respect!

    #1682876

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Most, if not all, cholov ha”companies” have top notch reliable hashgachas.”

    While this statement is true, in of itself, it should NOT be misconstrued, twisted and then extrapolated that the hechsher is certifying that the milk in the product is in fact milk from a cow (or other kosher source). In fact, it is NOT. They rely on the psak of R’ Moshe that if the company says it is cows milk, it is cows milk. They do NOT have someone at the farm verifying the source of the milk. This is true even if the certification is on nothing more than a container of milk. (why the hechsher is on the milk may be as simple as the contract with the certifying agency and the company, or, there may be things added to the milk that require hechsher).

    As always, do not rely on something you read on the internet. Call the OU, OK, ChafK or any other hechsher that certifies products made with “chalav hacompanies” for yourself and ask them directly, what their symbol on a container of milk implies, if anything.

    #1682895

    Meno
    Participant

    So why don’t user of the Cholov Stam heter use any Cholov Stam milk or products that has no hechsher?

    Joseph, I challenge you to find milk in a supermarket in the NY Metro area without a hechsher.

    Hurry it’s gonna start snowing soon.

    #1682902

    yudel
    Participant

    We eat beef from steers (male) not from cows.
    no outside links

    #1682904

    Joseph
    Participant

    Meno: Please clarify what point you’re trying to convey. Are you asserting that if milk that has no hechshor whatsoever is being sold in the U.S., people who use Cholov Stam would have no problem buying it and drinking it and actually do so?

    Because according to Rav Moshe’s heter for Cholov Stam, such milk is kosher to drink. So those relying on Rav Moshe’s heter for Cholov Stam should drink such non-hechsher milk in the U.S. just as they would drink OU-D milk in the U.S.

    #1682911

    Meno
    Participant

    Meno: Please clarify what point you’re trying to convey. Are you asserting that if milk that has no hechshor whatsoever is being sold in the U.S., people who use Cholov Stam would have no problem buying it and drinking it and actually do so?

    Some would and some wouldn’t, just like some people wouldn’t drink bottled water without a hechsher.

    But my point was that your claim that people who rely on R’ Moshe’s hetter still wouldn’t drink milk without any hechsher is simply not true. It just happens to be that most milk has a hechsher anyway.

    #1682920

    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    I cannot understand why anyone would buy milk without a hechsher. I grew up in a town where most people ate cholov company and nobody bought milk without a hechsher.
    The cholov Yisroel is on the milking of the cow, the hechsher is on everything involving the plant, workers, tubing, vats, cleansers etc. The fact that there is a trust that the milk only contains cow’s milk, even with 100% certainty, has no bearing on what else they used the processing equipment for.

    #1682921

    ModernMisnaged
    Participant

    @joseph, good point, but wouldn’t that go for literally any other food that is TECHNICALLY kosher, yet doesn’t have a hechsher, e.g. dried fruit?

    #1682931

    Meno
    Participant

    The cholov Yisroel is on the milking of the cow, the hechsher is on everything involving the plant, workers, tubing, vats, cleansers etc.

    I would imagine most of that is regulated by the FDA as well. There are plenty foods that are acceptable without a hechsher, according to the “mainstream” kashrus organizations.

    #1682884

    Joseph
    Participant

    Skepticism of Dr. Tendler’s credibility does not stem from anonymous internet commentators. The Agudas Yisroel released a letter over 35 years documenting Tendler’s lying about Rav Moshe’s halachic positions. The Aguda’s letter is easily findable online and has a precise indisputable outline of the sheker perpetrated by that Y.U. fellow.

    #1682946

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    If people would go to a dairy farm they would realize that its impossible to milk anything but a cow there.

    One you cannot easily milk a pig, Unlike cows that are quiet when they are milked, Pigs are very restless animals and will not stand still while being milked and more importantly, NOBODY milks a cow anymore, its all done by machine with these pipes that fit on the cows udders, and machines suck the milk out of the cow, The pipes do not fit on a pig and lastly even if somehow you could milk a pig (It obviously has been done) the milk of a pig is worth more than milk from a cow, there is no financial incentive to do so

    #1682950

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    There are other animals besides cows and pigs.

    Whether or not financial incentive plays a role is a machlokes between the Chasam Sofer and the Pri Chodosh (others as well). As Rav Moshe writes, the minhag in klal Yisroel was always like the Chasam Sofer, and Rav Moshe held that his heter works even according to the Chasam Sofer.

    #1682976

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Joseph, I challenge you to find milk in a supermarket in the NY Metro area without a hechsher.”

    The “Great Value” (walmart private label) milk does not have a hechsher on it.

    If it DOES have a hechsher, what would it imply?

    #1682977

    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Joseph, be careful how you use your arguments. You stated that if the circumstances changed, then the psak changes. By your logic, we have had a calendar for 1800 years so chutz laaretz should no longer observe yom tov shainy.

    #1682978

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “So those relying on Rav Moshe’s heter for Cholov Stam should drink such non-hechsher milk in the U.S. just as they would drink OU-D milk in the U.S.”

    Only if it is straight milk. Look at the ingredient panel, sometimes vitamins and other things are added which may require a hechsher. again, dont believe me, call your Rav, or one of the kashrus agencies.

    #1682979

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    ASAIK the only other animal that is milked that is Non-kosher is a camel and Camel milk is not cheap either.

    I dont see people running up and wanting to drink Rat Milk

    #1682985

    apushatayid
    Participant

    Rav Moshes psak is not a heter. It is a psak that says the government oversight and regulation satisfies the concerns of chazal that required chalav yisroel to begin with. Despite that, he DOES say that a baal nefesh should consume what we call chalav yisroel, even at a greater cost.

    #1682995

    Meno
    Participant

    The “Great Value” (walmart private label) milk does not have a hechsher on it.

    According to the OU Product Search, Great Value Milk is OU-certified (when bearing the OU symbol). You can even see a picture of it on the Walmart website with an OU-D.

    And also you’re not Joseph.

    #1683004

    Joseph
    Participant

    And also you’re not Joseph.

    Don’t be so sure.

    #1683077

    apushatayid
    Participant

    “Great Value Milk is OU-certified (when bearing the OU symbol). ”

    The Great Value milk sold in the Walmart Supercenter in Harrison, NJ, which qualifies as the greater NY area, does NOT have an OU.

    And, how do you know I’m not Joseph?

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