Chief Rabbi

Hello ready now,

What do you mean by “interfaith”? When I hear that word, I tend to think of situations where clergy or leaders of different religious groups come together at public events to offer prayers, blessings, and consolations (e.g., the ceremony that was just held regarding the horrific school shooting). I always find those events so profoundly moving to watch and listen to on the news. I sense that you must be referring to something else?

aurora77 – he means that he doesn’t like the idea of such things. I personally agree with what you say, though there is a limit, of course. There is nothing wrong with showing peaceful respect and some cooperation when needed.

As for the new Chief Rabbi: honestly, the chareidi world really couldn’t care less. In Gateshead, many people don’t even know who the previous one was, or that such a thing exists at all. It’s an MO thing from the United Synagogue, it doesn’t have any impact at all on the frum world.

Read Rav Mirvis’s history regarding “interfaith” and especially his contacts with imams and mosques before you get excited. Lord Sacks raised the stature of Judaism in the eyes of the goyim, and he knew to back down after he took a false intellectual premise related to “interfaith” and inadvertently ended up swimming in the cesspool of kfira. He was far from perfect, but most of the time he created only kiddush Hashem. Same for Lord Jacobowitz AH, especially during the time of Margaret Thatcher, who looked to him rather than to notzri clergy for moral leadership.

Today, with the Muslim mafia in control of most of Londonistan, Khan Manchester and many other parts of the United Caliphate, it is impossible for someone in this position to avoid “interfaith” unless he’d rather face death threats.

This is a “rav mi-taam” position in any case, and as Gatesheader points out, it is immaterial for the Torah-true world. The dayanim of the London Beis Din tend to be reliable talmidei chachomim (I do not know if Rav Ehrentreu is still the av beis din), and they are quite independent of the “Chief Rabbi.”

Is yeshiva Tuition paid for by the government in England?

How about the Rabbis of Shuls especially larger ones?

I do not know if Rav Ehrentreu is still the av beis din

According to Wikipedia (not the greatest of sources), he retired in 2006.

P.S. I have gained much respect for Dayan Ehrentreu to stand up for what is Yashar over the past month or two.

Yes, I also think he is an excellent choice for the post – but expect him to have to deal with “interfaith” because of what the UK has become.

I also believe Dayan Ehrentreu retired. He has always stood up for what is right, whether it is this issue at present, the eruv…or avoiding unnecessary chumras regarding scotch.

Considering the issues facing Kedassia about how to deal with certain problems that have arisen in the London Chareidi community, they might benefit from some consultation with R’ Mirvis.

I have always found R’ Sacks inspiring, and I highly recommend his Radical Then, Radical Now to everyone.

As a citizen of a Commonwealth country, I suppose R’ Mirvis will have some representative capacity for me with the monarchy, but other than coming to speak or spend shabbos with a kehila, R’ Jakobovitz zt’l hadn’t and R’ Sacks hasn’t spent much time in my community, though R Jakobovitz’s brother R’ Shlomo lives here.

I’m not across the pond, unless you consider Lake Ontario the pond.

The Chassidishe Gatesheader: I don’t know who you are or when you turned up in Ghd, but I am fortunate to have been born there, learned in yeshiva there for 4 years, and then lived there for 7 years. About 10 years ago, Chief Rabbi Sacks paid a visit to Ghd, and when he walked into the Yeshiva Gedola Beis HaMedrash, THE ENTIRE Beis Hamedrash stood up as one to respect him. The Rosh Yeshiva welcomed him warmly and escorted him to sit next to him for Mincha.

I completely disagree with you that no one in Ghd knows who he is. When the Alter Ghd Rov opposed a statement the Chief Rabbi made in his book, he agreed and reprinted the book without the offending passage.

When people say that Chief Rabbi is inconsequential for the Chareidi community, they are so mistaken. Who stood up in the Lords to defend Shechita and Bris Milah? Who represents the Jewish community so eloquently to the Queen and Government? We have to have a lot of hakoras hatov to Chief Rabbi Lord Sacks and the United synagogue establishment. I don’t say that we (the Chareidi world) have to agree on everything the US do, but we cannot make light of the office of Chief Rabbi, as it achieves a great purpose that we are not in a position to do ourselves.

Just to clear up a few things.

1) The London Beth Din is made up of World class Talmidei Chachomim, and is officially the Court of the Chief Rabbi, with the Chief Rabbi officially being Av Beis Din. That is why Dayan Ehrentreu is/was called Rosh Beis Din. In practice he does not get involved in the inner workings of the Beis Din on a day to day basis.

2) Dayan Ehrentreu is retired, but is very active in the community and still travels Europe extensively for the CER and in other capacities.

3) The Chief Rabbi’s full title is the “Chief Rabbi of the United Hebrew Congregations of the Commonwealth”

4) There are many YWN users east side of the pond. The world doesn’t end at Maine!

Let me wish Rabbi Mirvis Shlit”a great hatzlocho and siyatta dishmaya in his huge undertaking, ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??”?

There is alo a little wolf in country that is calling for Jewish people to read “most secular books” which are also forbidden to Jewish people by the Holy One of Israel! Forbidden is a word that means we are happy, truly elated to refrain from that which has been forbidden to us by the Holy One of Israel.

Aurora 77, once again your unfailing patience and politeness are an example for all on these boards to follow. I’ll try to answer some of your questions – addressed to someone else – I’m not as polite as you :).

Please note that these are my opinions and experiences, and while some may agree or follow similar perspectives, there are many who do not, and I have no interest in telling them they are misguided.

“Given what you said about not studying other religions, do any Orthodox Jewish scholars (at universities for instance) study other world religions in the context of writing about or researching world history?”

My answer to this is a bit complex. I will give you two examples of Frum, even chareidi scholars who did study early christianity in the context of their work. Professor Solomon (Zalman) Birnbaum z’l who taught Paleography at the School of Oriental Studies at the University of London many decades ago was one of the foremost scholars of Paleography at the time and he worked on the Dead Sea Scrolls. In this work he encountered and studied texts that were among those sectarian (non rabbinic) writings that some early christians used to formulate their doctrines. He was quite frum, his sons were members of Agudath Israel synagogues, and his grandsons studied at Prominent Yeshivas.

Another orthodox scholar of the Dead Sea Scrolls who has had plenty of exposure to early christian writings is Professor Lawrence Shiffman, longtime scholar at NYU and recently appointed to an administrative position at Yeshiva University. I have and I’ve read a number of his books, and though his focus is on the early history of Rabbinic Judaism, he has clearly referenced his study and knowledge of early christianity in them, as well as broadcast interviews I have seen. He is also a proponent of centrist rather than modern orthodoxy, putting him in the camp of Rabbi Schacter, among others.

Finally, though I don’t know what stream of orthodoxy he considers himself to be in, Professor Noah Feldman is one of the foremost scholars of Islamic legalism in the world. His reputation is quite impressive, and I’ve heard his analysis owes much to his study of gemara (talmud) and the intricacies of halachic legal codes.

As a historian myself, I’ve studied Islam and christianity in the context primarily of how they interacted with Judaism and secondarily on how they impacted on Military, Scientific, Economic, Political and Social trends over the last 2000 years.

” It kind of sounds like this kind of thing would not be allowed, but what if the study/writing/research is done with the purpose of better understanding causes and effects in history, especially Jewish history across the millennia?”

One of the things you don’t mention is another of the reasons I studied christianity, and that is to learn how to refute missionaries. I have worked with a few anti-missionary organizations. The Rabbis at Jews for Judaism and Outreach Judaism (all of whom are orthodox), for example, have all studied christianity, have clarified Paul’s perfidious anti Semitism that infected the church, and have developed ways to combat christian missionaries preying on Jews who have no background or affiliation, passing off their “messianic” Judaism as something other than christianity.

Again, as a historian, One can’t fully understand the history of Judaism in the Diaspora without understanding where christian animosity, and later muslim animosity towards Jews came from

“For the non-Jewish people who follow the seven Noachide laws, are they allowed to go further and take up some more of the Jewish obligations, for example keeping the Sabbath?”

I will suggest that you ask this question of your local orthodox Rabbi. For yourself, considering what you have told us about your family history, I would suggest consulting with a Rabbi to determine what your status is.

“Regarding weddings, can an Orthodox Jew attend (I don’t mean partake in any of the ritual aspects of, but be present and silent at) an extended family member’s or friend’s wedding if it occurs in a church?”

There are some (few) sources who might permit being in a church building without participating in any ceremonies or being there while they are going on. Apparently Rabbi Sacks found a halachic rationale for attending a royal wedding, but I am not aware of anyone else who permits it. Though I have been invited to christian weddings, I have never been to one, and I don’t expect I would ever go.

“I understand what you said about there being no one deity who satisfies all of the world’s people’s idea of what a deity is. That being said, when people of different faith backgrounds gather at a vigil, for instance, and a representative of each group speaks in general terms about the love of G-d for people and praying for others’ comfort in times of grief and sorrow, does this kind of event jeopardize the separateness of which you spoke?”

For me, no. For others here, likely yes.

One major point of correction: The Chief Rabbi of the UK does not represent all jews in Engalnd. He only represents the United Synagogue. The liberal and reform congregations do not accept him a their representatives.

147,

2 corrections:

1) Dayan Gelley Shlita is NOT Av Beis Din, his title is Senior Dayan.

2) London Beth Din Is NOT the only authority to register marriages and divorces. The UOHC also register marriages, and in fact the vast majority of ‘chareidi’ weddings are under their auspices. The London Beth Din are the only ones to register conversions.

I know R’ Ehrentreu personally. He is an amazing talmid chacham and gaon. He also is quite personable.

Many Orthodox Jews are involved in interfaith study and dialogue.

Rabbi Dr. Alan Brill, Rabbi Dr. Alan Goshen Gottstein, Rabbi Shlomo Riskin, Rabbi Dr. Eugene Korn, Rabbi Shear Yashuv Cohen, Rabbi Sacks and others promote the Meiri’s vision of religious tolerance and a more universalistic picture for coexistence.

Just to caste some light upon yechusdik’s Query regarding the Chief Rabbi’s attendance of a royal wedding…..it has long been the position of the office of the Chief Rabbi to attend functions when invited to do so by the Sovereign …such invites are worded “by Royal Command ….” this has been the case historically and all past Chief Rabbi’s have done so. It was considered a chiuv to do so if so “commanded “

By Royal Command, Her Majesty the Queen commands the Chief Rabbi to bow before the cross.

Little different than commanding him to attend a church for a christian worship service.

When it comes to entering a church, halakha makes no distinction between the denomination of the church, although it may be less of an issur to enter a Unitarian, Jehovah’s Witness, or Mormon church, since these groups do not believe in a Trinity and do not believe Jesus is divine.

Anglicans also have statues and whatnot, and the Rabbanut actually sends R’ Shear Yashuv Cohen to important functions in the Vatican.

The psak is as follows. The Meiri believes that Christianity is not avodah zarah, which is like Tosafot, who say that Trinitarianism is like goyim being mishtateif HaShem and another being, which for them, is not assur, but is assur for Jews. (Tosfos sv Shema, Bechorot 2b).

Meiri says that Christians, like others “possessed of religion,” are indeed like bnei noach (Beit haBechira, Avodah Zarah 26b).

Additionally, Hullin 13b says that akum outside Israel really aren’t idolaters, but are merely following customs without understanding what they are doing.

I have read many responsa on the topic, and honestly, most poskim do not allow entering a church. However, Teshuvot haRosh klak 19, number 17, says that a Jew may take refuge in a church in a time of danger. This may serve as a limud zechut for the Rabbinate’s practice, as we would want to avoid eivah, and it is clear in this teshuva that entering a church to save Jewish life is mutar.

Historically, we do know that rabbis entered churches. Kerach shel Romi says that R’ Yisrael Moshe Hazan and others entered churches to learn niggunim that would be applied to synaggoue worship, which may be plausible, since much of nusach is pentatonic, much like Gregorian chant.

R’ Yosef Carlebach, the chief rabbi of Lubeck, often visited cathedrals for the sake of viewing the artwork and whatnot.

I believe that while it is most likely assur to enter a church, there are cases where it is simply unavoidable, as we need to avoid eivah. Also, in cases where Jews have gentile family members and colleagues, it may be detrimental to avoid attending functions like church weddings, funerals, christenings, etc.

The British Rabbinical practice of entering Westminster Abbey, like that of Rabbi Haskel Lookstein at Obama’s inauguration, is undertaken for the sake of good relations with our neighbors, which is a religious imperative in and of itself.

How is attending an Anglician Church service, with cheese-n-crackers invoked and prayed to in front of a cross, not avoda zora? (Or different than a Catholic Church service, for that matter.)

I am not expert on Christianity, nor do I know the exact difference between the various demonimations, but the “cheese-n-crackers” is part of the catholic mass. Protestants dont do that, nor do many have icons . Also some dont even belive in the trinity (They are called Unitarians).

Most Halachas related to christianity are based on Catholism which is what was common in places jews lives (and the most common in the North East United states which most jews live)

Rebdoniel: Most Achronim don’t read Tosfos as Shittuf being Muttar for a Goy and no one (and I mean no one) Paskens like that Meiri. According to that Meiri even ancient Greeks and Romans (and modern Hindus) aren’t Ovdei Avodah Zarah. The Meiri is not even a Tznif Lehakel. Also, the Meiri’s definition of Notzrim as a Sun Cult claiming to descend from Nevuchadnezzar (which actually existed in Provence from the tenth-15th centuries) is clearly not what the Gemara meant. And that Rosh was not even brought down as an opinion in Shulchan Aruch, if I recall correctly, so it’s hard to Pasken by it. Your quoting about Ovdei Avodah Zarah B’CHU”L is good, but R’ Moshe already pointed out (and this has to be P’shat) that that clearly doesn’t apply to those who are obviously Addukim Bo, such as the ministers, priests, missionaries, etc.

Naysberg: They believe in 1 G-d. Not a trinity. They are Avodah Zarah just as much as Islam is. And while the Ran (and, L’pele, the Tzitz Eliezer brings this down) Paskens that Islam is not Avodah Zarah, the Olam has been Tofes like the Rambam that Islam is Muttar for Goyim and for Jews to enter their mosques if necessary.

No, the reason it was Muttar B’sha’as Had’chak for R’ Sacks to attend the wedding was due to it not being Avodah Zarah, and not for any other reason.

The New chief Rabbi is from South Africa his father was

rov as well. The family is very distinguished and very suitable for this position. He is honest to a fault. Behazlocho

The Noda B’Yehuda paskens that shituf is pure avoda zora even for a goy. Everyone agrees it is avoda zora for a Yid. So, clearly, a Yid cannot go into any church as the shituf they espouse is pure avoda zora for him.