May 12, 2016 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #617708
Sephardic Chief Rabbi Yitzhak Yosef gave a festive speech in honor of Israeli Independence Day on Thursday at the Great Synagogue in Jerusalem.
“The incredible ingathering of the exiles, they came from all ends of the earth, everyone came to the land of Israel,” said Rabbi Yosef. “The prophet Yehezkel (Ezekiel) already foresaw it back then.”
“The prophet prophesied the redemption which thank God is approaching the ingathering of the exiles. It is not in our merit that the Holy One blessed be He did this, not because we are worthy of it, not in our merit. We did not observe his laws, even though we came to the land of Israel.”
He emphasized that “if such a great ingathering of the exiles was done like this, it is despite that we desecrated the name of the Holy One blessed be He among the non-Jews – think what would have been if we had truly walked in his ways, what the nation of Israel would have merited.”
“Today thank God most of the nation of Israel is here in the land of Israel. There is a possibility here to sit and keep the commandments, there is no one who will tell you what to do, there is a democracy in which one can study Torah and educate their children.”
Given the freedoms of being back in Israel, he stated, “therefore precisely on this day (Independence Day) we have to know: physical independence without spiritual independence is worthless. We need physical independence together with spiritual independence. The spiritual freedom is the core.”
“We have to be grateful that we are here in the land of Israel and can sit and observe the commandments, each person as they desire. If there weren’t soldiers and the entire establishment of the state, could we sit in quiet and study Torah? Could we educate our children?”
Recognizing the largely secular founders of the modern state of Israel, he pointed out “what was here 80 years ago. They (the pioneers of the modern state) were the emissaries of the Holy One blessed be He, in their merit we sit to study Torah. We have to be grateful to the Holy One blessed be He.”
“Since the destruction of the Second Temple there wasn’t such a large Jewish presence in the land of Israel. Thanks to God the state is developing every day. All this is from His kindness, may He be blessed. We have to be grateful.”May 12, 2016 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1151786
The answer to the thread title is, of course, yes.
If HKB”K sees fit to allow us a period of time to be able to sit and learn relatively undisturbed, He doesn’t need the secular zionists’ help.May 12, 2016 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #1151787
DY, if Hashem wants to give you parnassa He does not need for you to get a job. Even David HaMelech needed an army (Sanhedrin 49a).May 12, 2016 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #1151788
So if someone would ask if we could have parnassah without a job, the answer would be yes as well.
I’m not saying a person doesn’t need to get a job, or that as things currently stand, we should disband the army.
A proper analogy (similar to ones given by the Chazon Ish and others) would be if Reuven had a lot of wealth and didn’t need to work, but Shimon swindled him of all his possessions and then offered him a job. Perhaps Reuven needs to take him up on it, but Shimon doesn’t have any groiser yasher koach coming to him.May 12, 2016 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #1151789Little FroggieParticipant
I wrote I wasn’t going to START, someone else is trying really hard!!
Avi K; David Hamelech’s army constituted talmedei chachamoim of repute.. While engaging the enemy they had Torah in their minds and mouth.. (how does an amputee make chalitza.. can one save himself with another’s money.. tamun b’eish..) Highly doubt that is the story today…May 12, 2016 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1151790kj chusidParticipant
This rabbi shud study the history of Zionism and see what it did to Judaism and in particular SephardimMay 12, 2016 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1151791
Could we sit and study Torah without donations? The answer of course is yes. If HKB”H sees fit to allow us to learn Torah and not need money, he doesn’t need the help of the wealthy.
But that doesn’t change the fact that Hashem is using the wealthy as tools to support Torah and we owe His tools hakaras hatov for donating their hard earned money to kollelim and yeshivos instead of spending it on themselves. Even though we know that they only make money because of those learning Torah, we still owe them hakaras hatov.
We could also sit and learn without the protection of soldiers if HKBH sees fit. But right now, HKBH is using the soldiers as his tools to protect Toras Eretz Yisroel, and we owe His tools hakaras hatov for putting their lives on the line to protect the Kollelim and Yeshivos (in addition to all of the other people in the land). Even though we know that they are only successful because of those learning Torah, we still owe them hakaras hatov.May 12, 2016 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #1151792
DY- are you implying it is the soldiers’ fault that we need protection in the first place and therefore they don’t deserve a “groiser yasher koach” for risking their lives when giving us that very same protection?May 12, 2016 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #1151793akupermaParticipant
We’ve been sitting and studying Torah for centuries (really millenia) without soldiers, and doing quite well. The decision of the zionists to start a war with the goyim has hurt, not helped, those who want to learn Torah in Eretz Yisrael (not to mention the devastating effect it had on Jews in many countries elsewhere).May 12, 2016 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1151794
DY- are you implying it is the soldiers’ fault that we need protection in the first place and therefore they don’t deserve a “groiser yasher koach” for risking their lives when giving us that very same protection?
No I am not. We need to try and separate the individuals who came into the bad situation from the institution which created the bad situation. (That’s hard to do, though.)
Yom Haatzmaut is about the institution which created the situation.May 12, 2016 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #1151795
DY- There has been anti-Semitism throughout history even before hakamas hamedina. If there was no State of Israel in the post-Holocaust era, I have no idea how different the world would look today. To say that the Medina created the current situation is a statement that could only be made by a Navi. I don’t know who created the situation… in fact, Eisav Sonei Es Yaakov tells me that the situation would exists with or without a medina. What I do know is that the medina is protecting us and preserving us (or more accurately, Hashem is using the medina to protect us and preserve is) in Eretz Yisroel.
Akuperma- there has been Torah for centuries, but not in Eretz Yisroel. We have not had this much Torah in Eretz Yisroel since the fall of Beitar about a thousand years ago. The Zionists and the State with the right of return and the soldiers who protects us from the surrounding Non Jews have been Hashems tools in returning and sustaining Torah in Eretz YisroelMay 12, 2016 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1151796
So you would want to give the benefit of the doubt to a State which was started with the intention to uproot Torah ch”v. I have no idea why you would want to do that, particularly against the opinion of the Chazon Ish etc. (chochom odif mi’novi…).May 12, 2016 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1151797
I don’t know about giving the benefit of the doubt, I’m just saying I don’t know if the Medina is the cause of all of the Anti-Semitism today… or more accurately, I am not convinced that the Jewish People would be better off nowadays if the medina was never founded. I don’t know enough, and I don’t think anyone knows enough to accurately blame the medina for all of the evil that has befallen Klal Yisroel these past 68 years.
And yes, I acknowledge that the State was started with the intention to uproot Torach ch”v. And I can proudly and happily say, THEY FAILED! HODU LASHEM KI TOV KI LA’OLAM CHASDO!
The Medina that they helped establish has fostered so much of the Torah that they hate! Rabos Machshavos BeLeiv Ish Va’Atzas Hashem Hi Sakum!
What I do know, is that the State exists. The State spends more money supporting Torah than any other institution in the world. The State offers automatic citizenship for any Jew who wants to live in Eretz Yisroel. The State provides soldiers to protect the Jewish People (among them are those who learn Torah), from enemies who want to kill us.
You can continue to speculate on what the Medina should be doing, on how Torah would be so much stronger if it were not for the Medina, on how the Jews would be so much safer if not for the Medina. You can rationalize however you want to take away your responsibility to recognize all of the positives the Medina has done. I don’t deal with these what ifs. I deal with what I see. Hodu LaShem Ki Tov, Ki La’Olam Chasdo. The Medina has been such a positive force for Torah Jewry, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.May 12, 2016 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1151798
akuperma: There has not been Talmud Torah in Klal Yisrael on a scale this massive since before the Galus started.
DY: To anyone Frum, Yom Ha’atzma’ut is about thanking HKBH for giving control of Eretz Yisrael back to us.May 12, 2016 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #1151799
I don’t deal with these what ifs. I deal with what I see.
So you would give a groiser yasher koach to Shimon because all you see is that he employs Reuven.May 12, 2016 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1151800MDGParticipant
I would not read too much into the quoted words of the Rav.
He is putting a spiritual spin on the physical, so that the average secular Israeli will able to also see the spiritual within the physical.May 12, 2016 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #1151801Little FroggieParticipant
“..To anyone Frum, Yom Ha’atzma’ut is about thanking HKBH..”
Highly doubt that!! This chaga is in commemoration of the day years ago, erev shabbos, five minutes to shkia, they proclaimed ???? ??? ??????.. Nothing especial to thank for… (thank you for letting us sin)
(maybe the were mekayem ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ????)May 12, 2016 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #1151802
And yes, I acknowledge that the State was started with the intention to uproot Torach ch”v. And I can proudly and happily say, THEY FAILED! HODU LASHEM KI TOV KI LA’OLAM CHASDO!
Say, there’s a thought. The anti-Zionists should celebrate Yom Hatzmaut because “they tried to destroy, us, they failed, let’s eat!”May 12, 2016 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1151803
DY: To anyone Frum, Yom Ha’atzma’ut is about thanking HKBH for giving control of Eretz Yisrael back to us.
I assume only those who actually think that was a good thing.May 12, 2016 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1151804
DY- Well, according to your analogy, I also saw him swindled by Shimon. I saw Shimon putting him in that situation bemeizid.
Medinas Yisroel did not cause the hatred. Eisav Sonei es Ya’akov. Bechol dor vador omdim aleinu lechaloseinu. In every generation until 1948, they wanted to kill us… now suddenly the medina is the cause of the hatred? If not for the medina, anti-Semitism would have ended after WWII? Do you honestly believe that?
And even if you’re right, that the medina caused all the hatred, it’s still unlike your analogy. Shimon ripped off Reuven on purpose to steal his money and take advantage of him. Shimon was not looking out for Reuven’s best interests.
The Medina, on the other had, was looking to protect Klal Yisroel from the dangers of anti-Semitism. They were trying to be a safe haven for the Jewish People. According to you, they were wrong, and their efforts produced the opposite results and now they are trying to correct their mistake by protecting the Jews from the enemies they inadvertently created. I don’t think that’s what happened, but even if it was, it is still unlike you analogy.May 12, 2016 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #1151805
So you think the State of Israel should not be blamed for acts of antisemitism, since antisemitism has always existed, but it should be given credit for Jews learning Torah, even though Jews have always been learning Torah?May 12, 2016 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1151806
Just a few posts ago, you acknowledged that they were trying to uproot the Torah, ch”v.
Now suddenly, they’re big tzaddikim trying to save klal Yisroel? Now suddenly you don’t need a navi, you can say let’s celebrate because we know we’re better off with a medinah than without?
If you want to celebrate that we can sit and learn, have extra kavanah during Modim, particularly on Shabbos or Simchas Torah. It makes no sense to celebrate on a day when Hashem’s enemies declared war on Him. Any success we have in Torah in Eretz Yisroel is despite the events surrounding hakamas hamedinah, not because of it.May 12, 2016 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #1151807
mw13- I’m talking about Torah in Eretz Yisroel. That has not always existed. That has grown exponentially since Hakamas HaMedina. Arguably because of Hakamas HaMedina.
DY- I’m celebrating that we can now return to EY en masse. We can serve HKBH in EY en masse. We are protected from our enemies in EY. Is this what the founders had in mind? Probably not. But the day that this Medina started, is a positive day, even if the founders had different intentions. It is certainly not despite the events of the Hakams HaMedina because without Hakamas Hamedina none of this would likely have happened.May 12, 2016 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1151808
So to say we’re better off you don’t need a navi, but to say were worse off, you do?May 12, 2016 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #1151809
I’m not saying we’re better off than if we didn’t have a medina. I have no idea. I’m saying we’re better than before we had the medina. Before we had the medina, there were very few Jews in EY. Before the Medina, there was much less Torah in EY. Before the Medina, there was less anti-Semitism in EY itself, but I think overall things are a lot better than they were beforehand (the Holocaust, pograms). The Medina (and USA for that matter) has helped Torah Jewry grow immensely than what was beforehand. The difference between the Medina and USA is that the Medina is doing it in Eretz HaKedoshah.May 12, 2016 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #1151810
DY: Yeah, I should have said “to anyone Frum who celebrates Yom Ha’atma’ut”.
LF: Yes. The British Mandate expired on Friday night at midnight. They declared independence hours earlier to avoid Chillul Shabbos. I think that’s a pretty good thing, honestly.
mw13: There were Frum people also involved in founding the State. Some wanted to end Frumkeit. Others saw this as a way to revitalize Frumkeit, which (as the Rav famously said) was floundering due to depression in response to teh Holocaust. I heard a Chareidi Rov (who is not pro the Medinah in the slightest) say that the reason HKBH created the State was to revitalize Yiddishkeit, which had lost tons of motivation after the horrors of the Holocaust. In 1948, everyone except for certain relatively small groups saw it as an amazing thing, warts and all. And yes, the warts are often a big deal.May 12, 2016 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1151811
I’m not saying we’re better off than if we didn’t have a medina. I have no idea.
Then I assume you find the idea of celebrating Yom Haatzmaut silly at best (and considering how many halachos are broken, worse.)May 12, 2016 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1151812
Did you mean to address that to me? Because I can’t see what all that has to do with the (fairly minor) points that I raised…May 13, 2016 1:13 am at 1:13 am #1151813Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
“Recognizing the largely secular founders of the modern state of Israel, he pointed out “what was here 80 years ago. They (the pioneers of the modern state) were the emissaries of the Holy One blessed be He, in their merit we sit to study Torah. We have to be grateful to the Holy One blessed be He.”
I find it very hard to believe that this statement was referring to the fervent secularists like Herzl and Ben Yehudah. I suspect the quote is taken out of context and has been applied in this way by media outlets and eventually trickled its way onto the YWN forums like a game of telephone. Can anyone confirm/deny that Rav Yosef (or any sane Rabbi) would actually call atheist extremists “the emissaries of HKBH?”May 13, 2016 2:23 am at 2:23 am #1151814
NCB: It makes sense. There is a trend in Mekubalim in Eretz Yisrael to explain the secular Zionists based on an Arizal (I haven’t seen this inside, but have heard it independently from 3 Talmidim of R’ Kaduri). The Arizal said that the Meraglim would have to come back and be Metaken their Aveirah. They would not accomplish a single Mitzvah in their lives other than Yishuv Eretz Yisrael. Mekubalim wondered how it could possibly be that someone only does one Mitzvah in their entire lives. But when you look at some of the early founders of the State, it makes shocking sense. I don’t know if R’ Yosef said it either, but it would not surprise me and it would be explained in this vein.May 13, 2016 4:22 am at 4:22 am #1151815charliehallParticipant
“We’ve been sitting and studying Torah for centuries (really millenia) without soldiers, and doing quite well.”
You must be joking. But this is nothing to joke about.May 13, 2016 4:27 am at 4:27 am #1151816charliehallParticipant
“To anyone Frum, Yom Ha’atzma’ut is about thanking HKBH.”
Precisely. And I recite Hallel as a reminder of WHO is responsible for the miracles.May 13, 2016 5:14 am at 5:14 am #1151817
Nevile, Rav Kook said that explicitly. He also told Ben Yehuda to do teshuva (he replied “Maybe” and died the next day, which was Shabbat). He also eulogized Herzl and explained why the secularists are so ant-Torah – their job is to build the material side of EY and gather in the exiles. This makes them think that there is only the material side.
Sam, I have not heard that. However, the Gra (quoted in “Kol HaTor”) and Rav Teichtal (“Em HaBanim Semeicha”) say that opponents of yishuv EY have been infected by the spies’ sin.May 13, 2016 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #1151818
I have heard that the Zilbermans (among others) believe the Kol HaTor to be a forgery.May 13, 2016 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #1151819yichusdikParticipant
Little Froggie, you mentioned that Dovid Hamelech
...constituted Talmidei Chachomim of repute...`
Certainly some of them were. Others, though, were not even Jewish, like Ittai HaGitti and his 600 men who were from Gat, making them Plishtim, Like the Kraisim and the Plaisim, like the allies from Tzor that eventually became not only allies but builders of the Beis Hamikdosh under Shlomo Hamelech. Kings used mercenaries – in fact, where there were no standing armies, only tribal levies as described in Yehoshua, Shoftim, and Shmuel, mercenaries were vital bodyguards for Dovid Hamelech and others after him.
Kings used relatively unlearned farmers and shepherds when the need arose. And they used Talmidei Chachomim as well.
Our yeshivas need to teach more Neviim and Ksuvim so that our received wisdom doesnt contradict our holiest and oldest writings.May 13, 2016 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1151820
LF: Talmidei Chachamim are Davka not supposed to be soldiers. See Rashi Al HaTorah by Avraham and Eliezer.May 14, 2016 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #1151821
Sam, that was not a milchemet mitzva. In a milchement mitzva all go (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 7:4) – and all of Israel’s wars have been in this category (ibid 5:1). Of course, there are support troops as well as combat troops. Rav Nachman Kahane suggested periodic exams to decide who would learn full time in battei midrashot, who would be part of the IDF Rabbinate and so forth. I personally would also require those completely deferred to dedicate their learning each day to the success of the IDF, put out books and articles on the halachot of war, etc.May 15, 2016 6:09 am at 6:09 am #1151822
DY, for your information, the early secular Zionists did mean to save Klal Yisroel, but not because it is a mitzvah — just as their own idea.May 15, 2016 11:50 am at 11:50 am #1151823
Mdd, they didn’t want to save what you or I define as klal Yisroel.May 15, 2016 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #1151824
DY, they wanted to save the Jews, the Hebrews.May 15, 2016 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #1151825
DY- they wanted to save the lives of those who were halachically Jewish.May 15, 2016 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #1151826
DY, there is a Gemorah which praises Achav’s conduct in his last battle which saved the moment at the time. Do you think he meant to save Klal Yisroel (of your and Satmar definition)?May 15, 2016 2:04 pm at 2:04 pm #1151827
Missionaries also want to “save” people who are halachically Jewish. I don’t think we should be praising them.May 15, 2016 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #1151828
DY, we should praise them for the good things they did. Chazal praised Omri for adding a city to EY (Sanhedrin 102b).May 15, 2016 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1151829
You can praise missionaries if you want. I won’tMay 15, 2016 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1151830
DY, wrong analogy! Missionaries’ “saving” is shmad itself. The Zionists were working for the physical saving.May 15, 2016 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1151831
DY , you are arguing with the Gemoros.May 15, 2016 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1151832
The zionists wanted to redefine klal Yisroel as ch”v not being bound to the Torah at all. It’s a good analogy.May 16, 2016 2:57 am at 2:57 am #1151833
DY, but at the same time trying to provide for their physical security.May 16, 2016 3:24 am at 3:24 am #1151834
The Shulchan Oruch makes no such distinction. See Y”D 243:2 that Talmeidi Chachomim are not obligated to contribute towards defense efforts, and 246:18 that learning Torah takes precedence over any mitzva that can be done by somebody else.
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