Cholov Akum

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  • #588702

    Will Hill
    Participant

    Another aspect is that many frum jews come from a Chasidishe backround & have Chasidishe Minhagim. It should be clearly stated that no Chasidshe Rabbonim ever held of such a Heter hence we have today widespread Cholov Yisroel available due by & large to the Chasidim.

    (From a post earlier today.)

    #772474

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    Today, you can get a gallon of regular milk for 3.59 Cholov yisroel costs about 5.59 for 2 half-gals. Many people cannot afford the extra 2 dollars. The gemara has a number of cases where the amoraim threatened that if the merchants didn’t lower prices, they would pasken the most lenient shita so people could buy elsewhere. (Hadasim for lulav, certain dishes for pesach.) That very well could apply here. Why does having a Jew on premises add 50% to the price? Please explain.

    #772475

    squeak
    Participant

    An additional point to make is the quality of the cholov yisroel milk that you get from the store. Generally, anything you don’t use the first day the bottle is opened becomes sour. Sometimes, the milk is sour even before you open it. So to me that sounds like the situation where cholov yisroel milk is not available still prevails today. (Unless you want to buy a new bottle every day)

    Not that this means one should be maikil, just disagreeing with your assertion that cholov yisroel milk is as available as non cholov yisroel milk – even in the Holy “in town” mekoimos.

    #772476

    oomis
    Participant

    ALL milk sold in this country that has passed government inspection, is unquestionably kosher milk. In fact,kosher non-cow milk from say a goat or sheep (if there is such a thing) cannot even be sold as regular milk. In Europe or other places where there could possibly be milk from non-kosher sources, such as mare’s or pig’s milk, there was a pressing need to ensure that Jews only drank Cholov Yisroel. The milk needed that hashgocha, because it was customary for non-Jews to drink other types of milk. That is not the case in the USA. Even if one wants to get goat’s milk, it is only available in specialty venues. If the bottle or container is stamped US government inspected (or whatever the exact phraseology used), it is assuredly only cow milk.

    When Goldmann (?) Farms brought down the milk prices many years ago and broke the power of the milk cartel, I began buying their milk as a show of support to the cholov Yisroel company that was not greedy. But that is no longer the case today. CY prices have gone through the roof, and for a family of MANY children, that can be beyond costly. There is no justification for this. And what REALLY grinds my gears is that I was told that there is a well-known CY cheese company (which I am choosing not to name here)that is ALSO the producer of Miller Cheeses, which is Cholov Stam. If this is true, it is almost like gneivas daas, because you are paying more for the former, when the latter is the same product. Anybody able to shed some light on this for me?

    In any event, this is an issue that no two people will agree upon. Bottom line – if it has a reliable hechsher, I’m going to use it, whether or not it is Cholov Yisroel. I am only makpid on CY during aseres yemai teshuvah – otherwise, it’s whatever my kosher supermarket is selling at the lowest price. Sometimes that DOES include CY and then I buy it.

    #772477

    shindy
    Member

    My husband wants me to buy only cholov yisroel milk. I was told by the guy at wesley kosher that the New Square is very good, stays fresh, and he recomended storing the milk on the top shelf in the BACK of the fridge. Since I am storing the milk this way I have had no problem.

    What troubles me is that there is an attitude of certain CY keepers of superiority, that we are better than you because we keep CY. I don’t think the first question you are asked when one goes up to shamayim after 120 years is DID YOU KEEP CY?

    #772481

    labochur
    Member

    I think I recall R’ Moshe himself in the tshuva saying that a yirei shamayim should be makpid. Kal vechoimer nowadays, no?

    #772482

    shindy
    Member

    torahis1…don’t take it too seriously. Most of my friends who keep CY do have respect for others but there are always a few of this type, but it’s their problem, not ours.

    #772483

    intellegent
    Member

    oomis1105

    As far as I remember, I think the idea of cholov yisroes is even if you know the product is kosher, you are still supposed to use milk that was watched by a jew. (I think certain milk products (cheese?) can only be made with cow’s milk but cholov yisroel still applies.)

    Also, to all who are against the “my way or highway” attitude, will hill did not say he does not respect others’ opinions, he is just stating what his view is and he obviously feels very strongly about it which I don’t think there is anything wrong with.

    #772484

    oomis
    Participant

    “Member

    oomis1105

    As far as I remember, I think the idea of cholov yisroes is even if you know the product is kosher, you are still supposed to use milk that was watched by a jew. (I think certain milk products (cheese?) can only be made with cow’s milk but cholov yisroel still applies.)”

    No, it is not that cholov Yisroel applies to the cheese, it is that the cheese must have a HECHSHER, even though it can only be made with kosher milk from a kosher animal (including goats and sheep). I believe there are types of cheese that can be made with unkosher milk, but it is NOT prevalent in the USA, and ALL dairy products that are sold in the US are under strict government standards that they must be cow milk products unless they state that they are goat’s milk or Sheep milk.

    The cheese issue also has to do with the rennet that is used to make the cheese. So clearly a hechsher is of paramount importance, but not Cholov Yisroel per se, to those who would not eat Cholov Stam products.

    #772485

    anon for this
    Participant

    It’s not just the milk that’s an issue, but many other products that contain milk. The cholov yisroel or pareve versions of these products are not widely available and are much more expensive, especially because they are rarely available on sale.

    My daughter has a food intolerance which severely limits her diet. Many of the products she can eat are dairy cholov stam. I would not restrict her diet futher by permitting her to eat only cholov yisroel. And given that food allergies and intolerances are increasingly common, I’m sure I’m not the only parent with this particular concern.

    #772486

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Also, I have yet to seem organic milk (hormone free, antibiotic free etc) – with coupons it costs the same as cholov yisroel, but you get a better product. When my son starts drinking cows milk, we are going to buy Organic.

    Anyone know of organic cholov yisroel milk?

    #772487

    jphone
    Member

    In my humble opinion. Chalav Yisroel milk is overpriced and due to poor packaging (you can easily feel the difference between a bottle of CY and any stam milk) does not last very long and spoils rather quickly.

    Again, this is my opinion, and I am not stating this as fact. CY companies are in business for themselves, not to provide yidden with CY milk. If they cared about the average consumer they would sell their milk in GALLON containers. Simple econimics says that because they can not charge 2x a half gallon for a gallon bottle, they make more per gallon this way. Until a CY company is willing to answer WHY they wont sell gallon size bottles, I will believe it is due to their greed. I have written letters to these comapnies and have not been given the courtesy of a response.

    #772488

    Joseph
    Participant

    jphone, I’ve seen gallon-size Golden Flow CY milk.

    #772489

    PM
    Member

    As a Rav I have to disagree with the original poster. The majority of Poskim accept Rav Moshe zatzal’s heter and rule that the halacha permits chalav stam in the US today. There are those who disagree, as always, and there is ground to be machmir for someone who can. Also, anyone who has a specific minhag in his family should follow his minhag. However, I can think of many chumros that have stronger grounds and more serious that most people ignore. For example, chadash is assur mideoraisa according to most Poskim, but many more people are makpid on chalav Yisroel than yashan.

    #772490

    eli lev
    Participant

    reb moshe himself was very makpid on chalav yisrael.

    also speak to people working in kashrus agenies, & they may tell u that the “metzius” [facts] nowadays about [rav moshe’s s’vorah on] the govt. inspections, is not the way it was described then in rav moshe’s tshuva.

    #772491

    eli lev
    Participant

    to PM

    please name the majority of poskim that u speak of.

    & the minority too please. [otherwise we can never know who was left out of ur list-making the minority into a majority!]

    thanks

    #772492

    Chuck Schwab
    Participant

    Lets also remember that, like everything else, consumption of Cholov Akum has a negative affect on ones neshama — and thus will affect a person in ways unfathomable.

    #772493

    PM
    Member

    Eli lev: I don’t know why you think Reb Moshe was “very makpid” on chalav Yisroel. While he did take it on himself as a chumra, his son Reb Dovid says that he never served the children chalav Yisroel and even gave them ice cream that was chalav stam.

    I’m also not sure where you saw that the “metzius” today is different than that described in Igros Moshe. He writes explicitly that even if the inspectors do not come regularly and do not check carefully it is still permitted to drink. It couldn’t have gotten much worse than he describes it.

    By the way, I personally am makpid on chalav Yisroel. But I know it is a chumra and would not necessarily require it of others.

    #772494

    Feif Un
    Participant

    eli, are you sure that R’ M9oshe zt”l was makpid on it? I believe that R’ Dovid Feinstein shlita drinks cholov stam.

    #772495

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    “Lets also remember that, like everything else, consumption of Cholov Akum has a negative affect on ones neshama — and thus will affect a person in ways unfathomable. “

    Chuck can you explain that a little better? If something is halachically allowed, why would it affect us negatively? I really dont follow that logic.

    Personally, unless there is organic cholov yisroel, I wont buy it. there is no need to drink so much garbage that is in non organic milk. So my spritual AND physical health is fine.

    #772496

    jphone
    Member

    Joseph,

    WHERE have you seen gallon sized containers of Golden Flow CY milk. I would make a resonable effort to purchase it.

    #772498

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    To all posters….remember that R’Moshe’s hetetr was not novel…It was already a hetter in the days of the Pri Chodosh….two hundred years ago…

    Cheese is differetn beause of the rennet….

    #772499

    shindy
    Member

    SJSinNYC- I agree with you about the organic milk! I really wish the CY companies made organic milk, my hubby does not want me buying the chalov stom organic milk, but it is so important. I read a whole thing about what is important to eat organic and what isn’t so crucial, but dairy products are really important.

    #772500

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    shindy – yeah I dont currently buy much milk for me and my husband, so we dont buy organic yet. I read that article too! My son is 10 months old, so in two months, we start buying only organic. We already do only organic yogurt (stoneyfield farms is so good and they have coupons online!)We are slowly trying to move towards all organic and I make all my sons fruits/veggies organic if possible.

    Do you know of any organic kosher meat/chicken?

    #772501

    eli lev
    Participant

    PM

    please read again what i wrote,it answers ur comments.

    1-reb moshe HIMSELF…i.e. for himself.

    2- speak to people …in kashrus…

    dont assume! esp. IF u are a rav its ur responsibility to the people who may ask u[& to people reading ur comments here].

    also ,again, please give us ur list of majority & minority of poskim…

    #772502

    I drink soymilk…so it’s not a problem for me! (By the way, soymilk is a great solution for the organic issue. Rice milk as well.)

    #772504

    Drink Hemp Milk it is kosher and yummy, nutritious high in Omegas3 and 6. I know this off the subject of CY Milk, the fact is some babies and consumers are allergic to Cow and Soy. So it is nice there are alternative beverages for people who would like another option.

    #772505

    jphone
    Member

    The original message here (someone may have alluded to this already), seems to be confusing (perhaps it is deliberate?) Chalav Stam and Chalav Akum.

    #772506

    Bogen
    Participant

    No one answered the original posters point. If you are so keen on relying on the heter to eat Cholov Akum, why are you not also following Reb Moshe’s psak that using a timer with an Air Conditioner is ossur on Shabbos!?

    #772507

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Bogen, R’ Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zt”l gave a psak regarding Shabbos clocks. As far as I know, he didn’t give a publicized psak regarding cholov stam (NOT CHALAV AKUM!)

    R’ Moshe paskened regarding both.

    As to why we follow R’ Shlomo Zalman regarding Shabbos clocks: I don’t know. I do know that every major posek now will tell you they’re ok based on the psak from R’ Shlomo Zalman.

    Regarding cholov stam, the only major posek to pasken on it recently was R’ Moshe. Therefore, we follow his psak, as nobody argues on him. Yes, people are machmir, but nobody will tell you it’s treif.

    It’s not people picking and choosing which Rav to follow, it’s pretty much every posek nowadays following the opinion of R’ Moshe with regard to milk, and R’ Shlomo Zalman with regard to the clocks.

    #772509

    sammygol
    Member

    This is not any different than following the Rema regarding one halacha, and the Shach regarding another. Unless one is a real talmid muvhak, as existed in the times of Chazal, this has been the method of psak for close to 2000 years.

    #772510

    Chuck Schwab
    Participant

    You can’t pick and choose. You either follow Rav Moshe, or you don’t. You can’t follow him for this but not that.

    #772511

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    JFem, babies cant drink soy/rice milk because the nutrients/calories arent balanced for their needs. My neice is allergic to dairy and soy so she drinks rice, but its not ideal.

    #772512

    jphone
    Member

    Bogen: People have a Rav who they ask their shailos to. Most people never asked their shalos to R’ Moshe Z’l. The point you raise is better asked to the Rabbanim who issue these psakim for their kehila and not those who follow the psak they are given by their Rav.

    #772513

    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    I think the reason why people are maikil on Shabbos clocks, is that we know there is a machlokes Bais Shammai and Bais Hillel regarding Shevisas keilim. Beis Hillel says you are allowed to turn on your sprinkler before Shabbos and water your lawn all Shabbos, and many other cases in the Mishna in the first perek of Shabbos. Rav Moshe said now that we have Shabbos clocks, technically one could run his entire factory or business on Shabbos with automated machines, and not be in violation, but would certainly be non-Shabbosdig. He says that although there is no issur, he is sure that chazal would have been gozer. This is a tremendous chidush, as we normally say that we have no power to make new gezeiros since the close of the gemarah. It is a very extreme svara. He says we can use it for lights, since the Rov Olam does, and it is not for business, but mainly to help people sleep (I believe, since haven’t seen teshuvah recently). Possibly people feel that air-conditioners are not unshabbosdig, and they can’t afford to have them running when they are not needed. Maybe, anyway, the thermostat is no different than a Shabbos clock, as it also turns on and off the motor when needed. So since it is not a commercial item, but just for comfort, people are maikil. However, to actually run a business of some kind on Shabbos by remote control, probably most people would follow Rav Moshe and not do it.

    #772514

    sammygol
    Member

    Really Chuck?

    Face this, please, since these are very obvious examples.

    The Chasidim ALL quote the Bach as to the permissibility of Chodosh, and NONE of them as much as davven the nusach the Bach used, never mind take on his chumros in Hilchos Shabbos, Kahsrus, etc, or even care to know if those exist or not.

    Ashkenazim follow the psak of the Tosafos regarding Zman Krias Shema, against the Rambam, yet, have little problem davening k’vosikin when needed, like the Rambam, although the same Tosafos hold that it is a bedieved.

    I only brought these 2 examples that are apparent to everyone, without delving into Choshem Mishpat where in almost every siman there is “kim li” application, which, perhaps, to some will definitely appear as pick and choose.

    #772515

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Pashute yid, your (excellent)posting about shabbos clocks is the proof that it takes time for a halocho to settle in. It is obvious that the vast majority of Jews (and Poskim) have agreed that shabbos clocks are fully acceptable and R”Moshe zz’l Psak is only accepted by very few.

    Hence, whenever there are “new’ halovhos, don’t necessarily reject it… or accept it.

    ‘Puk mo amo diber” is a very reliable way of knowing how a halacha develops and is ultimately accepted.

    Lest anyone accuse me of only looking at “kulos’, remember that in the early part of the twentieth century, thee were major Poskim who wanted to allow the use of electricity on shabbos vejomtov but the preponderance of Poskim decided against it and presto- today , no one allows using electricity on shabbos. (Yom tov may be different). It takes time for halachic decisions to become accepted or-rejected!

    #772516

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Chuck, another issue is that R’ Moshe wasn’t accepted as the main posek by most people. Yes, he was recognized as the posek hador by most. That doesn’t make him their Rav. Other people can argue on him, and you can go according to them. A competent Rav won’t argue on him without serious thought, but it can be done. If some local Rav of a shtiebel goes and argues on R’ Moshe zt”l, I’d say he was crazy. However, for a big posek, it can be done.

    For example, R’ Shachter from YU is a huge authority when it comes to Eruvin. he happens to argue on R’ Moshe regarding a point in Eruvin. A Rav near me, who’s close to R’ Shachter, told me that when R’ Shachter gave his psak, he told this Rav that he didn’t sleep for 2 nights beforehand. He reviewed his point again and again. In the end, he didn’t really feel like he was arguing with R’ Moshe, he felt the circumstances had changed, and the psak shouldn’t apply any more. Even with that, he couldn’t sleep for 2 nights! That is the proper mindset for disagreeing with a posek such as R’ Moshe.

    #772517

    lammed hey
    Member

    SammyGol, Bogen & Joseph:

    You would very surprised which Rov told me that you can pick and choose the rav who you ask individual questions, as long as you don’t re-ask a question. This is even if you know the rav who you ask is a bigger maykil than your usual rav.

    He quoted this from his Rebbe, whose last name is the same as one of the biggest G’Virim in the Frum world, V’Hamayvin Yavin. :-0 (who is also a famous Rosh HaYeshiva)

    Yup, him.

    Svorah takes all.

    #772518

    sammygol
    Member

    35

    And have I said anything different? Kindly do not place me in the hardheaded category with the “I’m right or bust” fellows. Thanks

    #772519

    The Big One
    Participant

    42 –

    You are correct. You should properly be placed in the hardheaded category with the “left or bust” fellows. (But then again, no one would expect you or those on the other side of the spectrum to admit as much.)

    But back to the original point here… no one, I repeat no one, would agree you can pick a Rabbi based upon what answer you are seeking e.g. to ask the question to the Rabbi you know is meikel, and next time pick another Rabbi is who meikel on another issue.

    #772520

    SJSinNYC- The best milk to give to a baby is Mothers Milk(from the biological Mother not the Cow). Mothers Milk is more Nutritious and better for the baby`s immune system.

    #772521

    oomis
    Participant

    When I was growing up, the Orthodox Jewish world of East New York all turned lights on and off on yom tov, as needed. The sevara was that electricity is exactly like turning on a stove that has a continuous pilot light ( not as most stoves are today with an electric ignition ona gas stove). The electricity was maavir from the wire to the light fixture (proof being that if you cut open the wire while it was plugged in, even if the lamp was off, you would get an electric shock), but it was not m’avreir, which is the same type of action as striking a match, which ias also assur on Yom tov.

    When we moved out of the neighborhood, our Rov in our new community said it was not permissible to do this, though if necessary a light could be turned on, but not off again. In my home we simply used Shabbos clocks for all the lights both on Shabbos and on Yom Tov. Obviously a clock could not be used for anything that was “vochedig,” (like a radio) as that would not be in the spirit of Shabbos or Yom Tov.

    #772522

    Will Hill
    Participant

    teen asked: whats the deal with chalav stam is it halacha or a minhag or what…and whats the reason for it?

    Jothar replied: Chalav Yisroel is a halacha mefureshes- we are afraid that goyim will adulterate their milk with treif. The Aruch Hashulchan (usually not known for being a machmir) brings down a few horror stories from people who were meikel on butter and ended up eating treif.

    Reb Moshe Feinstein ZT”L came up with a chiddush that in a society like america, when there is strong government oversight, nobody would think of adulterating milk, and it is therefore as good as Cholov Yisroel. This is a big chiddush, and many do not hold from it or try to be machmir on chalav yisroel. One thing we have been reminded of during this financial catastrophe is that companies will do anything to improve the bottom line, and that underfunded government agencies are no match for savvy businessmen (Madoff Securities, Satyam, all the companies caught with melamine-laced food products, etc.) The “fear factor” of government is somewhat limited when compared to the fear of the shareholders. Companies can and will cheat however they can to improve the bottom line. That said, milk is a basic staple, and the resulting scandal from being caught adulterating it would bankrupt a company. For other products, it’s not so simple.

    I have personally found that chalav yisroel spoils much faster than cholov stam, and drinking spoiled chalav yisroel is just not that good for my system. “Chamira sakanta meissura”. So I’m usually makpid on chalav yisroel, but if there’s no chalav stam I’ll drink it 🙂

    #772523

    anon for this
    Participant

    As Jothar noted above, the primary incentive for milk producers to substitute traif milk for kosher would be economic; that is, if it were cheaper for producers to sell pig milk as kosher, they might do so. However, in the United States most milk is produced on large dairy farms, which rarely have any pigs. Even if they did, automatic milking equipment is sized for cows, not pigs. Also, it seems to me that pigs don’t take to milking very well (although since I don’t know much about farming I might be wrong about this). In fact, since pigs are raised mostly for meat, pig milk is not generally commercially available in this country.

    Goats and sheep are easier to milk than pigs, but these types of milk tend to be more expensive than cow’s milk, and can be sold for more money, either as liquid milk or in the form of specialty cheeses. Therefore, there is little financial incentive to substitute these for cow milk. Like pigs, goats and sheep wouldn’t fit well in the milking equipment. Most importantly, even if goat or sheep milk were passed off as cow milk, the resulting product would still be kosher.

    Chinese manufacturers substituted melamine for nutrients in baby formula because there was a financial incentive to do so. As Jothar noted, even the prospect of harsh penalties did not deter them; indeed, two people have already been sentenced to death for this. If there were a financial incentive for milk producers to substitute milk from treif animals for cows’ milk they might do so, but given the realities of dairy milk production in this country these incentives don’t exist.

    #772524

    Joseph
    Participant

    Jothar also noted that the financial incentive to cheat with non-milk dairy products may be greater.

    #772525

    jphone
    Member

    Personally, I am makpid on Chalav Yishmael.

    #772526

    Jothar
    Member

    Exactly, Joseph. furthermore, even without cheating, there’s a lot that goes into butter and other dairy production that makes kashrus supervision a must. oukosher.org and kashrut.com have good articles explaining all this.

    #772527

    mazal77
    Participant

    Jphone, would that be camel’s milk???

    #772528

    jphone
    Member

    Camels give milk? live and learn

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