July 12, 2015 11:43 pm at 11:43 pm #616003
There are two fine, and otherwise equal, Yidden. One spent his entire life being careful to only consume Cholov Yisroel dairy products. When he traveled he either took along CY or avoided dairy. At home he spent the extra dollars, despite his meager income, on always buying only Cholov Yisroel dairy products for his family. Despite the extra costs, hassles, and times he couldn’t have his normal dairy foods when travelling, he was always happy to serve Hashem.
The second fine Yid lived a righteous life almost the same way as the first. The only notable difference was that he happily consumed Cholov Stam. He had his Hagan Daazs and M&Ms at home, work and away. If Ben & Jerry’s was on sale or cheaper than Klein’s, Ben & Jerry’s was the brand he put in the family freezer.
Will the first Yid get any more Olam Haba than the second for having been careful to only eat Cholov Yisroel and not Cholov Stam?July 13, 2015 12:41 am at 12:41 am #1091538Torah613TorahParticipant
The question is ridiculous.July 13, 2015 12:52 am at 12:52 am #1091539akupermaParticipant
How could there be halav yisrael in Gan Eden? Adam ha-Rishon and Chava weren’t Jews , so the only milk they had was halav stam. No one had halav Yisrael before Sinai.July 13, 2015 12:58 am at 12:58 am #1091540
Torah613: I’d appreciate if you elucidated your comment a bit more so I can understand it.
akuperman: I’m referring to receiving schar for keeping CY.July 13, 2015 12:58 am at 12:58 am #1091541
There are two fine, and otherwise equal, Yidden. One spent his entire life being careful to only purchase the music he listened to. When he traveled he either took along the CDs he purchased or avoided music. At home, too he spent the extra dollars, despite his meager income, on always buying music products for his family. Despite the extra costs, hassles, and times he couldn’t have music when travelling, he was always happy to serve Hashem.
The second fine Yid lived a righteous life almost the same way as the first. The only notable difference was that he happily copied music from his friends and from illegal download sites and file sharing. He had his Yaajov Shwekey and MBD at home, work and away. If Benny Friedman & Miami Boys’ Choir was available for download, Benny Friedman & Miami Boys’ Choir was the music he put on the family stereo system.
Will the first Yid get any more Olam Haba than the second for having been careful to only purchase his music and not sponge off of someone else’s hard work, time and money?July 13, 2015 1:12 am at 1:12 am #1091543popa_bar_abbaParticipant
There were two big reshaim. One spent half his day trolling in the YWN CR, and one spent half his day kvetching to his friends in the real life coffee room about people who post on the assur internet.
Which one gets more olom habah?July 13, 2015 1:26 am at 1:26 am #1091544
Was the milk in the coffee room cholov Yisroel?July 13, 2015 1:26 am at 1:26 am #1091545Matan1Participant
Joseph, assuming both people were following their poskim, they get equal reward.July 13, 2015 1:38 am at 1:38 am #1091546
Why do you ask ridiculous questions here, when you know that no one here can tell you with any authority who gets what portion in Olam Habah?
The WolfJuly 13, 2015 1:42 am at 1:42 am #1091547
Wolf, you’re right. I’m sorry.July 13, 2015 1:45 am at 1:45 am #1091548
No need to apologize, DY.
The true answer, of course, is if I’m one of the two people, then the other person has a better Olam Habah by default, regardless of what I or they do.
The WolfJuly 13, 2015 1:47 am at 1:47 am #1091549
How would you possibly know?July 13, 2015 1:50 am at 1:50 am #1091550
How would you possibly know?
Because I know my own deeds, thoughts and motivations.
The WolfJuly 13, 2015 1:50 am at 1:50 am #1091551
Wolf: It is untrue that it always cannot be ascertained in advance whether a certain activity, action or behavior will provide one greater schar in olam haba than the absence of engaging in it.July 13, 2015 1:52 am at 1:52 am #1091552
Matan1: Is it your contention that if someone’s Rov told him that it is not halachicly required to use CY, then his using only CY will not gain him any favor with Hashem or provide him any reward in olam haba?July 13, 2015 1:53 am at 1:53 am #1091553
Wolf: It is untrue that it always cannot be ascertained in advance whether a certain activity, action or behavior will provide one greater schar in olam haba than the absence of engaging in it.
Fine, whatever. If you want to believe that you’ll get more Olam HaBah than your neighbor for eating only CY, I’m certainly not going to stop you. Nonetheless, I’ll let HKBH decide, thank you very much.
The WolfJuly 13, 2015 1:53 am at 1:53 am #1091554
Wolf, how can you say that, when you know that no one here can tell you with any authority who gets what portion in Olam Habah?July 13, 2015 1:57 am at 1:57 am #1091555
Wolf: If someone says Tehilim every day (aside from what’s in davening) will he get schar in olam haba for that? Or do you contend there is no way to know whether he will get more schar than if he lived his life exactly as otherwise except that he did not say Tehilim every day?July 13, 2015 1:57 am at 1:57 am #1091556
Wolf, how can you say that
How can I say that I’ll let HKBH decide?????
The WolfJuly 13, 2015 1:59 am at 1:59 am #1091557
No, how can you say you’re worse than the other person.July 13, 2015 2:05 am at 2:05 am #1091558
No, how can you say you’re worse than the other person.
Oh, I misunderstood. I answered that above.
Wolf: If someone says Tehilim every day (aside from what’s in davening) will he get schar in olam haba for that? Or do you contend there is no way to know whether he will get more schar than if he lived his life exactly as otherwise except that he did not say Tehilim every day?
No, I don’t know that. How can you be so certain that you do? Perhaps there is a *better* use of one’s time than saying Tehillim (yeah, I know, that borders on heresy…). Perhaps HKBH wants me to do something else instead. Perhaps I could be doing tzedaka, learning or even earning a living and supporting my family during that time. There are times when it’s appropriate to put away the Tehillim and do something else.
Or maybe He just doesn’t want my Tehillim.
The WolfJuly 13, 2015 2:13 am at 2:13 am #1091559
No, you haven’t answered that, because you don’t know the other person’s thoughts, deeds, and motivations.
I dare say you don’t really know what they think of you in shomayim either, but you’ll deny that, so we’ll leave that alone.July 13, 2015 2:16 am at 2:16 am #1091560
I dare say you don’t really know what they think of you in shomayim either, but you’ll deny that, so we’ll leave that alone.
Fair enough. We can agree to disagree.
The WolfJuly 13, 2015 2:59 am at 2:59 am #1091561
Wolf: If someone says Tehilim 20 minutes a day during a period of time that he previously used to read the sports section of the news that he dropped and replaced with Tehilim, and if he would not be saying Tehilim the only other thing he would be doing is reading the sports section, and otherwise in either scenario he would be living his life and biding his time the same, do you not agree the scenario of him saying Tehilim for 20 minutes a day will earn him more schar in olam haba than had he been spending that time reading about the Knicks and the Nets?July 13, 2015 4:08 am at 4:08 am #1091562
Joseph: “Is it your contention that if someone’s Rov told him that it is not halachicly required to use CY, then his using only CY will not gain him any favor with Hashem or provide him any reward in olam haba?”
It is my contention that the Gemara says that when he gets to Shamayim HKBH will ask him why he did not enjoy the Haagen Daazs that HKBH specifically put in this world for him.July 13, 2015 4:27 am at 4:27 am #1091563
It is my contention that the Gemara says that when he gets to Shamayim HKBH will ask him why he did not enjoy the Haagen Daazs that HKBH specifically put in this world for him.
Sam: So you disagree with Rav Moshe Feinstein that a baal nefesh should not eat cholov stam, i.e. Haagen Daazs.
Noted.July 13, 2015 5:36 am at 5:36 am #1091564
Matan1: If your response to my above question to you is that if one’s Rov holds CS is permissible to consume then he receives no additional schar or olam haba if he is machmir to only consume CY, then my follow-up to you is three-fold:
a. If there’s no obligation to say Tehilim why does one receive schar for saying it but no schar for only eating CY?
b. Did the person in this aforementioned scenario (with the CS-permitting rov) who strictly only consumed CY, waste his life avoiding CS that he could have and should have enjoyed, and received no spiritual benefit for avoiding?
c. Why did Rav Moshe say that a baal nefesh shouldn’t eat CS? Putting aside the question of who or what a baal nefesh is, did Rav Moshe hold that a baal nefesh would receive schar for avoiding CS even though CS is permissible?July 13, 2015 6:39 am at 6:39 am #1091565–Participant
Sam: So you disagree with Rav Moshe Feinstein that a baal nefesh should not eat cholov stam, i.e. Haagen Daazs.
Who ever said we are discussing a Baal Nefesh?July 13, 2015 7:16 am at 7:16 am #1091566MammeleParticipant
Sam: IIRC you were the one who tried to avoid music at dinner time. With all due respect, IMHO something has caused you to become more cynical lately and it would be wise for you to address (not here) whatever it is. If I’m wrong I beg your mechilah, as I don’t want to hurt you and don’t know you IRL to care one way or another, just thought perhaps you are unaware.
Regarding Haagen Daazs you don’t honestly think that even if Chalav Stam is okay, every Yid needs to taste every Kosher food/ ice cream out there in order to follow the dictum of enjoying Hashem’s world?July 13, 2015 11:03 am at 11:03 am #1091567July 13, 2015 11:11 am at 11:11 am #1091568
Mammele, chalk it yo to Sam being a victim of Joseph’s successful trolling.July 13, 2015 11:47 am at 11:47 am #1091569zahavasdadParticipant
Which is a bigger Zchuis
eating Chalav Yisroel if you live in Borough Park or eating CHalav Stam out of town where even most Ice Creams do not have a hechsher (Only in NYC area do all Ice Creams have Hechsher, OOT except for Breyer ,Dreyers (Eddys) Haggan Daze and Ben and Jerrys they do notJuly 13, 2015 11:58 am at 11:58 am #1091570TheGoqParticipant
Joseph how dare you! you forgot Entenmanns.July 13, 2015 12:05 pm at 12:05 pm #1091571DaMosheParticipant
Obviously we don’t know the cheshbonos that occur in the Beis Din shel Ma’alah. So why bother to guess?
Redleg: Like I just said, we don’t know. I do know that I was told that anyone who went through the horrors of the concentration camps has a ticket straight to the highest levels of Gan Eden after they pass away. Just look at the story mentioned in the ‘Specific Holocaust Story” thread, where R’ Moshe Feinstein zt”l said (after a woman kissed him!) that she is holier than him, because she had numbers tattooed on her arm.July 13, 2015 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #1091572
DM, that was the point of my post. Some folks who shall remain nameless have a rather inflated view of their place in the Cosmos. Such a view is unwarranted and they may be in for a surprise when the Bill is presented. The believe that being makpid on cholov Yisroel gives them honors points at the Heavenly Hilton. They’d better be careful that they don’t end up in the Room next to the ice machine.July 13, 2015 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1091573July 13, 2015 12:42 pm at 12:42 pm #1091574
Mammele: I think I’ve maintained a healthy amount of cynicism for the last 5-10 years. 🙂 To seriously address your question, I have personal practices because they are what I feel Hashem wants from me. Whatever the particulars of those are don’t matter. I in no way imagine that I am gaining anything that anyone else isn’t by keeping any Chumros that I have. Just because I feel the Sugya goes one way and therefore I have to act in accordance doesn’t mean that I imagine that someone else who a) doesn’t know the Sugya or b) reads the Sugya a different way is any worse in the eyes of Hashem than I am. I will leave the judging up to Him. So long as one acts in accord with legitimate Halachic practice, I will never have the arrogance to claim that I am better or have more Schar than them. And I feel it necessary to strongly disagree when others do that.
Joseph: You are confusing what Ba’al Nefesh Yachmir means. You have the cause and effect backwards. You are assuming that being Machmir makes one a Ba’al Nefesh. It doesn’t. It means one who already is a Ba’al Nefesh should be Machmir. And I will contend that a Ba’al Nefesh gets the same Schar for keeping “CY” as a Stam person does for keeping his version of CY, i.e. Chalav Stam. Does the Ba’al Nefesh have a bigger Chelek for being a Ba’al Nefesh in the first place? Maybe. But that’s really not anything for anyone down here to decide.July 13, 2015 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #1091575TheGoqParticipant
If you think of yourself as being more righteous than your neighbor what will be your lot in Olam Haba?July 13, 2015 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #1091576
Sam: So why should a baal nefesh keep CY and lose a lifetime enjoyment of Haagen Daazs and Entenmanns (thanks Goq) when he will receive no more schar for avoiding CS than the other guy eating M&M’s and Ben & Jerrys every day?July 13, 2015 1:05 pm at 1:05 pm #1091577oomisParticipant
Only Hashem knows and cheshbons our ultimate sachar. It is not for us to decide that one person is ever so slightly more favored in His eyes because he drank cholov Yisroel or said extra Tehillim, or gave a dollar more to Tzedaka than someone else, or wore black and white, etc. etc. You and I do not really know what His cheshbonos are and in my very humble opinion, it is a tiny bit arrogant to make assumptions in this area. I have some other thoughts as well but am keeping them to myself.July 13, 2015 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1091578DaMosheParticipant
Joseph: If your Rav tells you to only eat CY, then do that. I’m sure it won’t be held against you! But don’t think that those who aren’t makpid on it are doing any worse than you are. My Rav has told me many times that it’s fine for me to eat Cholov HaCompanies.
I actually have a neighbor who is makpid to only eat CY. Why? Because his family used to live on the Lower East Side, in the same building as R’ Moshe zt”l. R’ Moshe once told my friend’s father, “You are a baal nefesh, and should be makpid to only eat cholov Yisrael!” So he did so, and so does his family.
Joseph, I’m sure if you’d eat Haagen Daazs ice cream purely lishma, to appreciate what Hashem gave you, you’d be doing just fine. But honestly, how many people are at that level? My Rebbe, R’ Bender shlita, once commented to us that he saw someone on Shabbos sitting with a big plate full of cold cuts, stuffing them into his mouth. R’ Bender said something to him about how he was eating, and the guy replied, “Rebbe, it’s l’kavod Shabbos!” R’ Bender asked, “Really? Are you sure you shouldn’t be saying l’kavod mine boich?”
Most likely, none of us are at that level (I can’t say for sure). I just follow the Torah and halachah as best I can, and rely on my Rav for guidance.July 13, 2015 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #1091579yehudayonaParticipant
ZD, it seems to me that there’s not a lot of mesiras nefesh for the OOTer to buy only Haagen Dazs, Ben & Jerry’s, etc. He’d really prefer Piggly Wiggly’s store brand that (according to your scenario) doesn’t have hashgacha?July 13, 2015 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1091580ubiquitinParticipant
Where did you get the notion that there is a limited amount of olam haba that has to bed divide up?
Even if there isnt enough olam haba to go around and it must be divide up,why cant we leave that to the ribono shel olam?
While on the subject though, my rebbe R’ Shurkin (a talmid of R’ Moshe) would often say you get double schar for eating chalav stam: for keeping kosher and for listening to the pesak of a gadol.July 13, 2015 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #1091581golferParticipant
Glad to see you’re back, oomis.
I BUMPed an old thread to post an all points bulletin searching for you, and here you are.
I have to say I agree with you.
But it’s not just “a tiny bit arrogant to make assumptions in this area” as you say; I think it displays not just one’s arrogance but also one’s ignorance.
Eons ago (or should I say many many posts ago) Torah613T explained it all perfectly, clearly, and in only four words!July 13, 2015 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #1091582
Joseph: Because he’s a Ba’al Nefesh. Which comes with its own requirements and expectations. Hashem judges everyone on their own level.
Let me ask you a similar example: A Sefardi won’t use an Eruv (let’s say it’s Kasher for all Ashkenazi Chumros) because it has a street 16 Amos wide inside it. An Ashkenazi will. Does the Sefardi get more Schar? Do Ashkenazim get more Schar for all of our Chumros in Hilchos Shechitah? WIll HKBH take Schar away from Sefardim for eating Kitniyos? Why/why not? And how is this different?July 13, 2015 2:43 pm at 2:43 pm #1091583
DM, ubiquitin: If one’s Rov says CS is permitted to be eaten, will such a person receive zero schar if he is makpid to only eat CY and not CS? It is a relevent question because people who are advised CS is permissible need to know if they are wasting their efforts, enjoyment and life by sticking only to CY.
ubiquitin: It isn’t a matter of olam haba having limited room. It is unlimited as necessary. Nevertheless, the fact as you surely are aware is that by doing certain greater efforts lifnim meshuras hadin one is rewarded for the additional effort. Certainly just because something isn’t mandatory and “only” falls into the category of lifnim meshuras hadin, does not mean people shouldn’t go above and beyond. So even if are to grant CS is muttar, as numerous authorities do, does that then negate those adherents from receiving greater schar?July 13, 2015 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #1091584
Sam: There’s no concept that a Sefardi baal nefesh should refrain from Kitniyos or that Eruv or an Ashkenazi baal nefesh to use Sefardic shechita. There is the fact that a baal nefesh should refrain from CS even though its muttar.July 13, 2015 2:57 pm at 2:57 pm #1091585🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
Joseph – that is ridiculous even for you. Oh please. Anyone who is machmir on cholav yisroel is doing so because it is what is right. Whether or not the people who eat Cholav Hacompany (yes, you are 100% wrong in calling it chalav stam. if it was cholov stam nobody would be eating it) are also right is irrelevant. We don’t keep mitzvos or chumros because we get extra schar for it.
And i have found that that way of thinking is exactly the basis for the rude and self righteous attitude people are speaking about. I have run into so many people who have a need to put other people’s ways and lives down because they dont want to believe that someone could be “enjoying extra stuff” and still be right in Hashem’s eyes. They need to stomp them down to keep that image that all their sacrificing and deprivation is getting them something. How about just serving Hashem because its right? Try having some pride in the mitzvos you keep and you wont feel deprived or sacrificing. If you keep your nose and eyes out of other peoples schar and “enjoyment”, i can almost assure you that you may just get that olam habah you are looking for.July 13, 2015 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1091586ubiquitinParticipant
“So even if are to grant CS is muttar, as numerous authorities do, does that then negate those adherents from receiving greater schar?”
I dont know. That is above my paygrade. If the ribono shel olam really wants my opinion. Sure give them more! the more the merrier!
I dont make it a habit to try to limit opther people’s olam haba.
There is room for us all to get whatever we deserve.
“There is the fact that a baal nefesh should refrain from CS even though its muttar.”
so for a non baal nefesh….
cmon you can work this outJuly 13, 2015 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #1091587
Syag: The fact is that many people who hold, and their Rov holds, that Cholov Stam is permitted still are machmir and refrain from eating CS either sometimes, or regarding certain foods [i.e. plain milk], or certain times [i.e. aseres yemei hateshuva] or any number of other conditions where they’ll refrain from eating CS even though other times they will eat CS as they hold it muttar.
So the question certainly is a relevent one.
Are these people being foolish for refraining from always eating and enjoying CS?
(Or Cholov HaCompanies, whichever nomenclature floats your boat.)
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