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Joseph: I don’t know. Nobody knows. We don’t understand how schar is allocated. So why bother asking stupid questions?
Joseph, do you think someone who chastises others because he enjoys it, not because he is truly trying to get them to improve, receives schar for it?
True, syag.
As I was just saying…
May I direct you also to T613T’s comment way up there.
golfer – i had actually meant to post that but she already had…
joseph – nomenclature? Ha! As if it is all the same halachically.
Joseph: that is why you have a Rav to ask. Unless, of course, you follow the Coffee Room Rebbe, the self-appointed Gaon (yeah right!) R’ DaMoshe. If that’s the case, let me know, and I’ll give you some direction.
Joseph
“but an answer can be ascertained and in fact needs to be ascertained”
I disagree with both. For example in your OP if the Ribono shel olam where to aks my opinion, I would say if guy A avoided CY so he can brag to others what a baaal nefesh he is or to gloat on an online forum how frum he is while guy b is a “fine righteous” yid who followed his posek then guy b would get more olam haba.
But again I have no idea, none of us do. This is a question that cannot be answered nor should it be. Be the best you can be, dont worry about getting more olam haba than the next guy. That is a very immature way to approach life.
p.s.
?? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???, ??? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???,
??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???????,
(I added that last part)
It’s not a halachic issue, it’s a hashkafic issue. If you want to have a discussion, that’s fine, but recognize that you’re not looking for an actual answer – the main thrust is the discussion, not the result of the discussion. If you want an answer, ask your Rav.
Jospeh
“I see, there should never be halachic discussions since everyone has a Rov.”
I never implied or said otherwise!
“If you hold that CS is muttar wouldn’t you want to know if there’s ever any spiritual reason to spend more money on a gallon of CY milk or buy CY chocolate or ice cream rather than CS milk, chocolate or ice cream?”
sure! though
a. thats not the way you laid it out in the op.
b. It is my firm belief that once we enter the land of muttar. “spiritual reasons” involving higher levels are not for anonymous posters to decide, since by defintion they depend on each persons level which you cannot possibly know. See these threads:
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/the-requirement-for-everyone-to-give-tochachah
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/halachick-dinner-what-do-you-think-about-it
Maybe Im the biggest baal nefesh who ever lived in which case youd be right to push me to avoid chlav stam. Maybe I just started keeping kohser and struggle daily with it in which case you would be wrong. The point is once mutar, and when trying to get “spiritual levels” or “more olam haba” Worry about yourself not others!
Joseph: If you assume like R’ Moshe, then some people are told to try to worry about CS while others are told *not* to try to worry.
If you assume like the Chazon Ish, Pashtus is there’s no difference and being “Machmir” is just a waste.
I think it depends on the person. I’ve heard some Rabbonim say that if you can, you should only have CY. If you follow one of those Rabbonim, then yes, there is a benefit to only having CY – not because of the CY itself, but because you are following your Rav.
For the benefit of CY in and of itself, I think we need to define what a “Baal Nefesh” is.
Joseph
Im not that well versed in “spiritual benefits”
But “Is there any spiritual benefit for a person to choose not to eat Cholov Stam?” Probably for some people, probably some times.
then again I am sure that there are also spiritual benefits for a person to choose to eat chalav stam. Though again, depending on the person and situation.
Please define “spiritual benefit”.
Knowing our outward looking society (which insists on hats for walking in the street but allows copying music because no one (besides God) sees), keeping CY will probably get your children a better shidduch, while not keeping it may mean that your children are relegated to being home schooled (as if anyone would accept a Chalov Stam child). So yes, there is a “spiritual benefit” (as per above) in keeping CY.
Joseph: I don’t know. Nor do I really care. My Rav says that ChC is perfectly fine, so that’s what I use. Not only that, but the few times I’ve bought CY milk, it has spoiled within 2 days, and I ended up spilling out most of it. The same goes with the CY cheeses.
“There is the fact that a baal nefesh should refrain from CS even though its muttar.”
1: I think that people should stop referring to it as chalav stam. It is a pejorative term created by those who disagreed with r’ moshes psak. His psak covers what he calls chalav hacompanies.
2: the discussion should not focus on the milk or ice cream one consumes, but how to reach the level of baal nefesh where r’ moshes charge to baalei nefesh applies.
“Why do these rabbonim hold that it is preferable to use CY if CS is muttar?”
Perhaps their mispallelim are baalei nefesh or close enough to that level that they feel it appropriate for them? The citation (n idea where it is snipped from) doesnt imply that those rabbonim say they must.
Golfer, thank you for the kind words and APB. I was slightly out of commission recently with a back problem and other assorted time grabbers,so I didn’t get to the computer so frequently. I actually originally typed “incredibly arrogant” but THAT sounded incredibly arrogant…or ME! I just feel that in the zechus of the coming yahrtzeit of Aharon HaKohein Gadol, that we should strive to be more like him, seeking for sholom bein Adam l’chaveiro, rather than for a concept of to whom am I spiritually superior today? The second Bayis was destroyed because of people who didn’t GET that, and we are
not all that different nearly 2,000 years later.
Don’t be ridiculous. “Cholov stam” is not a pejorative.
“Cholov stam” is not a pejorative.”
As it relates to this discussion, yes it is. Just ask those who popularized its use 40 years ago. I admit, its a lot better than the term chalav akum used by some.
Joseph, I wrote a reply, but it hasn’t been approved yet – I see it in yellow on my screen. Maybe the mods are trying to figure out my ChC acronym? It means Chalav haCompanies, the term used by R’ Moshe zt”l.
or they were trying to decide if you were reporting an isolated incident or making an accusation against an industry. I’ll go with the first but cautiously -29
Joseph,
I think you should rephrase the question with only one person. The same person can choose to each only CY (bli neder) or choose to regularly eat CS. All else being equal, is there any spiritual advantage to eating only CY?
I think the answer is, clearly, yes.
or they were trying to decide if you were reporting an isolated incident or making an accusation against an industry. I’ll go with the first but cautiously -29
In all fairness, it is not necessarily against the companies that create the milk but the long distances that it must travel (instead of being locally sourced), or the stores that carry (or mishandle) the product. I know of one Jewish owned store that I am careful not to buy dairy in the summer, but have no issues in the winter, and buy the same product from my local grocery even in the summer. It is the handling procedures in the Jewish owned store are grossly inadequate, causing the product to spoil much quicker (if not on the shelves).
In a vacuum, I find it hard to argue that, all other things being equal, there is no ma’aleh to eating only CY from the fact that R’ Moshe was matir chalav stam (under government regulation of course), still says that a baal nefesh should be machmir.
Practically however, all things are not equal. Sometimes being machmir for CY will impose hardships on their family, will impact other areas of life (a lessening of simchas chaim can make it harder for a person to be a kove’a itim, or harder to control other middos like patience and ka’as, sometimes it will give a person an unhealthy amount of arrogance (holier than thou attitude). Maybe being machmir in this will make it harder to be machmir in other areas (like yoshon which is probably a more important area to be machmir in).
So yes, pashtus is, all things being equal, it is better to be machmir about CY. But all things are never equal and people have to speak to their own rov and make a personal cheshbon hanefesh to determine if this chumra is right for them.
The answer is that the person who eats cholov stam gets more gan eden, but he gets his gan eden in olam hazeh. Aaah, Breyer’s Vanilla Bean!
Joseph,
It isn’t materially different than your rephrase. I had only read the first page of the thread when I posted that.
As to you second question, I have two reasons:
1) It is not clear to me that CS is muttar. Rav Moshe’s heter was a chiddush, not universally accepted, and Rav Moshe himself felt that if a person was capable he should be machmir.
2) Even if klapei shmaya it is mutar, if you are machmir because you think that there is a solid argument to be machmir then the self-control of your tayva will benefit your soul and you should get “schar halicha.”
Joseph
Somebody earlier mentioned hats, I’m curious as to your take on this.
There are two fine, and otherwise equal, Yidden. One spent his entire life being careful to only go on Shabbos with a shtreimel. When he traveled he either took along a shtreimel or borrowed one. At home he spent the extra dollars, despite his meager income, on always buying a shtreimel. Despite the extra costs, hassles, he was always happy to serve Hashem.
The second fine Yid lived a righteous life almost the same way as the first. The only notable difference was that he happily davened with a fedora. He had his hat on at home, work and away. If Borsalino was on sale or cheaper than Kraus’s, Borsalino was the brand he put on his head.
Will the first Yid get any more Olam Haba than the second for having been careful to only wear a shtreimel?
Or to use your rephrased question:
The premise here is that going on shabbos without a shtreimel is muttar.
Is there any spiritual benefit for a person to choose to wear a shtreimel?
Veltz, if you’re going to gehinnom for eating ice cream anyway, might as well have chocolate.
Apushatayid, Syag, and anyone else who thinks the term “cholov stam” is offensive: take it up with the OU and Chof-K, who both use the term in published material, and I believe with Rav Binyomin Forst, who uses it in “The Kosher Kitchen”, IIRC.
Joseph, of course benignuman’s question is different. Yours reeks of arrogance and discord by comparing the two people rather than simply asking if it’s a maalah.
Joseph: No, that was just a debating point. But you can’t be sure and neither can I.
Joseph: One thing I do know for sure. Pretty much every Rav will tell you that even if you have a heter to use the internet, there is definitely a spiritual benefit to not using it, and it will benefit your Olam Habah. Many Rabbonim, in fact, will tell you that even with a heter, it can be detrimental to your neshomah, and have a negative impact on your Olam Habah. Maybe you should try following that first before worrying about Chalav Yisrael?
Cholav Stam is not a derogatory term. What we all said was that there are those who use it as a derogatory term, they attach negative connotations to it, and Joseph is one of them.
DaMoshe, what an excellent point, of course. I crack up listening to people spout religious doctrine while spending hours around the clock on the internet. Just give it a minute and you will hear either excuses, defensiveness or personal digs in response. As I’ve said before, logic cannot compete with denial (or the yetzer hora)
no, but we may tell him so if he starts mussaring people to be more observant while he’s smoking!
Joseph, how is my post “premised wrong”?
I think it’s paradoxical for you to think it’s a maalah to be machmir on CY even if your rav thinks it’s OK, but not a maalah to be machmir on the more severe issur of geneivah (even if your rav is mattir).
it is a derogatory term to you. Your use of it is derogatory. I brought some past examples of you stating that it is the same thing as cholov akum but the mods didn’t post it.
Joseph, YOU (and others) use it as a derogatory term. Originally there was NO term for it. People started calling it chalav akum, despite Rav Moshes psak. Kashrus agencies started calling it chalav stam to differentiate it from actual cholov yisroel which was the term used by those who were promoting their milking being supervised by a jew. The term was then coopted by those who share the sentiments of joseph here and user it as a pejorative term.
In short, everyone uses it as a descriptive term. some choose to use it negatively.
Joseph, I think that in the next world they will serve Haagen Daazs ice cream. For those who accept R’ Moshe’s ruling, it is heaven! For those who insult the gaon and refuse to rely on it, it’s the opposite, watching everyone else enjoy it.
“In Gan Eden will they serve non-Cholov Yisroel?”
i guess that would depend on who’s mashgiach!
i never really thought haagen daaz was that different from any of the other really good ice creams. I prefer carvel tho. can’t beat soft ice cream. But now that i am makpid on eating only ch”y products, i cannot find ice cream that tastes even similar. Not sure why. i will sometimes splurge and buy heavy whipping cream to make my own (using a ben and jerry’s recipe book).
On topic tho, we had many reasons why we did not establish a home that was makpid on ch”y products and a major factor was that it would have been a “yet another” barrier for certain relatives.
Many of my kids have taken it upon themselves over time, (one because his rebbe told him he would rot in hell if he didn’t). When I finally took the plunge, it was only because I had a tremendous bakasha for Hashem. I wanted to give something extra that required much restraint and sacrifice (and did I say restraint?) in exchange for something in return. If my purpose had been to “upgrade” my ruchniyos in the food department, i am told being makpid on yoshon is much more of a priority.
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