Clarification to mod and DaMoshe

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  • #2268249
    ARSo
    Participant

    sechel: Tznius: would having a live Rebbe fix the issue? You guys have so many compliments on our Rebbe, now you say the issue is we don’t have a live Rebbe?!

    If you had a live rebbe there would be a definite chance that he would lay down some rules. A dead rebbe can’t lay down rules.

    It’s like the internet. Other chatzeiros have rules about internet usage that originate from their rebbes. Lubavich only has rules suggested by rabbis and mashpi’im.

    #2268250
    ARSo
    Participant

    sechel to me: demanding moshiach – like we’re going to hashem and threatening him? Like the dor haflaga that’s the accusation? I don’t see how that even makes sense.

    We’re not discussing what anyone on this thread said about “we want Mashiach now”. We were talking about what the LR said (and I remember it being said) about someone complaining about demanding Mashiach, and the LR did indeed say we should demand Mashiach.

    #2268278

    Avira > Because they tolerate

    It looks like your view of the community is more of a sect that upholds high standards. What do you do with the rest of the community? Put everyone in cherem. With all enthusiasm for movements and uniformity, we forget that there are real people out there who are traditional/Masorti who are part of the Jewish community. You see this more in Sephardic circles that did not experience haskala and subdivisions by shades of observance.

    If someone is even openly violating shabbat – you do not call him to read Torah, but you do let him into the shul (otherwise, the question of kibud will not arise). With chabad, it is claimed here simply that they are transferring from a monolithic movement to a general community. Whether this is so or whether this is a good or bad, I do not know. But it is a normal thing to have, and hopefully there will be leadership to deal with issues. If “rebbe” title is verbotten, use “gaon” or “rebbe’s talmid”.

    #2268247
    CS
    Participant

    Hi just popping in quickly. Not responding to any message in particular now (I’m towards top of p 9) but for those of you who are curious, I wanted to share two podcasts of Moshiach passing from the Chassidish youth of lubavitch today. They’re not necessarily meshichist (The main implication of the term meshichist is that they wear all the yechi clothing, and also talk about The Rebbe being Moshiach etc with anyone and everyone.)

    edited 

    (The people who aren’t Chassidish care in general less about everything yiddishkeit related (at least in comparison) and won’t likely get excited about this topic either.)

    Enjoy!

    #2268322
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Sechel – ever hear of reductive arguments? Please reread my post. No feelings involved at all; one affects the community deeply and the other is an individual nisayon of shmiras aynayim much like a billboard poster. No one has a relationship with the cleaning ladies more than “thank you,” or “excuse me can you take care of…”

    Cs – i can only imagine what was edited out if you actually wrote that people who are not chasidish “care in general less about yiddishkeit” – if by yiddishkeit you mean cultish messianic hysteria over a deceased rabbi, then you’re right, but that applies to every branch of chasidus besides Lubavitch too.

    If you want to see non-chasidish jews caring about yiddishkeit; where was Lubavitch in the city field event, where klal yisroel came together in all of its stripes to acknowledge and accept on themselves to not use unfiltered internet? Where is Lubavitch in the siyum hashas every 7 years, when klal yisroel celebrates its cherished Torah and their completion of the gemara? Where is Lubavitch kollelim, where idealistic young families sacrifice a life of material success to be davuk in Hashem and His Torah day and night, not just as a means of becoming a missionary in Hawaii?

    Klal yisroel cares about Torah. They do not, however, care about personality cults.

    #2268325
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Aaq, if you’ve ever lived in a Torah community, you’d know the answer to what you’re asking. I’m not making suggestions as to how to treat sinners. I am explaining what Torah communities do to someone who is oblivious to anything outside of crown heights and kfar chabad.

    We don’t put every sinner in cherem. But we don’t let our kids play with their children, we don’t accept them into our schools, we don’t have much to do with them if they’re consistently sinning in an open way. We don’t consider them part of the community, but we won’t throw them out of shul either.

    It has nothing to do with haskalah – sefardim don’t always do this because they’re afraid of intermarriage. But they do maintain a level of separation, especially if we’re talking about yeshiva sefardim like in Ateret. Non Yeshiva people, who grew up with Magen David co ed schools being the norm, are just not that frum to begin with. Their actions don’t represent a Torah community’s hanhagah.

    #2268407
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Cs,

    Thanks for the generalization (if that isn’t שקר & שנאת חינם I don’t know what is)

    What about davening bzman? I know there are “heterim” but I know lubavitchers that aren’t using them and still daven late

    #2268416
    sechel83
    Participant

    “It’s like the internet. Other chatzeiros have rules about internet usage that originate from their rebbes. Lubavich only has rules suggested by rabbis and mashpi’im.”
    So what’s the problem, lubavitch takes mashpiim very seriously the Rebbe said it’s a bakasha nafshis and even stronger.
    In general the Rebbe had a different approach to radio and technology that everything in the world was created for the kovod of hashem. The Rebbe said (I’m pretty sure) that it’s kefirs to say something was created by the Satan. That doesn’t mean everyone should use internet, the Rebbe spoke about this look in the maftachos for more details.
    Hashem told Moshe he wants to destroy the yidden and make Moshe into the great nation, Moshe stood up for the yidden. This is chabads way, not to push everyone who doesn’t fit in out box out rather to be mikarev them as it says in Tanya perek 32. (Kedushas Levi in parshas chukas and somewhere else I forgot also says that a manhig is someone who sees the good in Jews, not who rebukes)

    #2268428
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Sechel, we’re not discussing radio waves and telephones. We’re talking about the equivalent of hitting a neshoma with a machine gun over and over again and then shooting a rocket propelled grenade at it for good measure.

    Whatever hashkofa points there are about the “good in everything” doesn’t change what Internet access does and facilitates. It has no equal in literally all of human history.

    If you want to wax philosophically about being m’aleh nitzotzos while people commit all 3 chamuros and lose their eternity – go ahead. It’s just out of touch. And despite my critcism i am 100% sure that if the Lubavitcher rebbe were alive today, he would have been just as outspoken against the internet as Lakewood and satmar. So would any European, simple Jew. It’s not a complicated issue.

    #2268434
    sechel83
    Participant

    Avaira: at the Citi field event there was a clear peak from rav vosner that it’s Asur to use internet other than for business, and even then not in the home. And more limitations. Seems like the visitors of the yeshiva world are following that psak very well??
    Why do we need to go to a statium to hear a simple psak?
    The bais din in chabad in crown heights and in eretz yisroel put out their psak. Which I amagine all follow (being Dan likaf zchus)
    I have classmates who grew up on shlichus and we’re friends of non religious kids, bh they were mekarev many yidden, and those kids in my opinion became stronger in their yiddishkiet.
    This idea that the shluchim and there kids are effected negativity, based on what I see (my classmates in school and yeshiva) is totally made up from beginning to end. I don’t read all the lashon hara and Motzi Shem Ra on the internet, but even if there are some stories, there are also many in frum closed off cumminities

    #2268458
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Sechel, not every individual community accepted that aspect of rav vosner’s psak – the issue is that chabad continues to not condemn recreational and even unrestricted internet access, instead plays on these insufferable talking points of “the good in everything”

    Yes there was a psak from the CH beis din. But this is an issue that requires mobilization; did you help russian jewry by just issuing statements? Did klal yisroel defeat reform, haskalah, zionism, karaism, tzedukim, etc….with one psak beis din? No.

    And the proof to the disingenuousness of your statement is that chabad ks extremely into activism to reach its goals. If it cared about kedushah as a community as much as it cares about putting leather boxes and straps on men who are defiled with shiksas, it would do something about it. But it doesn’t.

    #2268517
    sechel83
    Participant

    Being chabad I learned to be Dan likaf schus. Just because someone has internet doesn’t mean he does avairos. 2) one of the reasons of the revealation of chassidus in the later generations is because of the nisyonos, so it’s pretty clear in chabad that the way to keep away from these nisyonos is thru learning and doing the avoda of chassidus. Every person has his mashpia to guide him wether or not he should have internet based on his work, shlichus etc. A few yrs before the asifa in 5772, I remember schools sending letters to parents about the dangers of internet and to get filters. I don’t know any lubavitchers who use internet without a filter.
    People also said that the shluchim that went in middle of nowhere with no religious community will not stay frum, we see that b”h the past 70 yrs they raised frum and chassidish kids. This is because they have the koach of the mishaleach – the Rebbe as explained in maamarim and sichos. So they have extra kochos when using the internet for kiruv.
    And btw again same as tznius, I personally don’t see internet more common by chabad then in other communitys. Meaning in yeshiva no one has, people involved in chinuch in chabad most don’t have, who have? Business men and shlucchim. By other communitys it’s the same, just i.e. by litvish more go to kolel, so most don’t have there. But the ones that go to business is the same thing.
    If you know what the Rebbe would do, maybe you be the Rebbe! If a Rebbe is only someone with common sense, we have plenty of that in chabad.

    #2268520
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “ If a Rebbe is only someone with common sense, we have plenty of that in chabad.“

    Yeah just ask the bachurim who made a tunnel at 770 and those who haven’t called them out (btw I think this was the whole reason for the previous thread)

    #2268521
    sechel83
    Participant

    I have to say “interesting” thread
    One attack one chabad, answered, another, answered another, shown that the attack doesn’t start, another, again ….
    This is my message for all critics (of any Jew) Just focus on your shlamos and if you believe in spreading chassidus so spread it, don’t focus on other people’s issues as I mentioned before it’s a mirror, the only other reason why hashem allows you to see it is to rebuke him directly in the way it says in sh”u, not to gossip and speak lashon hara about him. Done.
    Hamiskabed bikilyon chavairo… Besides lashon hara as mentioned before is kineged kulom even thinking bad about another Jew is included in this (Tanya igeres hakodesh) and even worse, it destroys the neshama more than speaking (and more than watching the worst stuff on the internet (cuz it’s kineged a”z giloy arroyos and shfichas damim all together)

    #2268523
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Having unfiltered internet is ITSELF an aveirah, and not a small one. rav chaim kanievsky wrote that such a person does not have olam haba, regardless of whether or not they fall into the trillions of traps that await those who enter, with the flick of one button.

    There’s nothing to be dan lekaf zchus. And since when is being dan lekaf zchus a Lubavitch thing? It’s a mishnah! I do it too. But I’m not supposed to put my head in the sand and pretend that unfiltered internet is ok or that it doesn’t lead, invariably, to sheol tachtis.

    #2268545

    Arso > It’s great that that woman does so much chesed, but unfortunately it’s really terrible that she is not tzniusdik.

    I am not sure are you addressing 3 yo or 18 yo kids, but why do you need to connect these 2 issues together and also address judging every person you meet? If you see someone doing chesed, discuss that act, you don’t need to either approve or discount everything that person did. Hope the kid sees enough positive examples at other times.

    #2268552
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @sechel

    @menachem


    @CS

    This whole thread seems totally fruitless to me.
    As long as the habad apologists will not agree about the basic facts, how can we try and argue about the merits or otherwise of those facts?

    Question to be asked is the following : Do we all agree that habad came up with new stuff in the last 60-70 years ?
    Yes or no ?

    Did habad at anytime in its 250 years plus of existence at any time or location organize a gathering for hachtarat meleh hamashiach ?
    Yes or no ?

    Did habad or any of its rebeim , including the other offshoots/branches [like niezin,liadi kapust etc] ever have their rabanim issue a public kol koreh for the public to accept their leader as mashiach ?
    Yes or no?

    Those questions do not pertain to opinions.
    They pertain to facts.
    Facts are either true or untrue.

    So to all of you , honest people , out there – Can we first get an unqualified and simple one word response to those questions ?
    .

    #2268567
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    “it destroys the neshama more than speaking (and more than watching the worst stuff on the internet (cuz it’s kineged a”z giloy arroyos and shfichas damim all together)”

    As one of the gedolei yisroel said regarding neo chabad(who shall remain nameless), chochma, bina, daas…but no sechel!

    We have a Lubavitcher saying that a holy jew who stumbles one time in the averah of lashon hora, is worse than a person who murders, commits adultery, or worships baal.

    Get real. Chazal mean no such thing and you know it. Lashon hora is a huge averah, but do you honestly think a person who murders another Jew has less teshuva to do and his neshoma isn’t as tainted as someone who can’t hold in a juicy piece of lashon hora in the mikveh?

    Seriously.

    edited

    #2268622
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “I denigrated the BTs?! I don’t remember doing that! I keep saying that it’s the kids of shluchim, and a number of shluchim themselves, who I am complaining.”

    I’m glad you didn’t mean anything against bts. You’ve written several posts implying that what you see as Chabads problems today, are due to bts, so I wanted to clarify this is really not the case.

    “I have close relatives who run a Chabad house – official shluchim, not mushrooms (yankel berel et al, have you heard that term?) – and who regulary post pictures of what goes on in their institution. Forget the (not-yet-)BTs who are there and are doing what they are doing, although in my humble opinion there’s no need to post pictures of that, I’m talking about the shluchim themselves. Shomu Shamayim! Because of tznius issues I won’t elaborate!”

    Interesting. Why did your relatives become lubavitch? I’m closely acquainted with a family who helps and helped many people learn Chassidus, and become lubavitch (doesn’t need to be both, there are many that just do the former), and all the ones I know keep the highest standards for themselves and bH have beautiful families. They were looking for something more when they came to lubavitch, not less, and we’ve spoken about it in many conversations. So I’m just curious what your relatives story is: did they go off and come back through lubavitch? Or what?

    About your insinuation of shluchim- there are thousands of shluchim, I’d say most uphold the highest standards as befits what they do, some started off as less, and give their communities what they have. One shlucha spoke to us in high school and shared how she always struggled with tznius, and ultimately turned around when her college students on campus respectfully asked why she wasn’t dressed the part of the Rebbetzin she was to them. She got the message and dresses completely tznius today bH. Shluchim were never sent as only the top 10% of lubavitch, many freilach kids who gave their teachers a hard time went on shlichus. Of course you can only give what you have, but I’d say shlichus is a win win in these cases because your on a path that encourages growth, and you’re anyway going to have what to share. When I occasionally do see shluchim who aren’t up to par with standards, I’m happy for them that they still chose shlichus. Imagine where they’d be if they weren’t…

    #2268623
    CS
    Participant

    Gadol hadofi,

    “ CS,

    So while you admit that most of chabad believes the Rebbe, zt”l, niftar three decades ago, is mashiach and that they declare this by plastering “yechi” over everything from yarmulkes to billboards, it’s not an obsession. Nothing to see here, let’s all just move on?

    Sorry, nobody’s buying. It’s a dangerous obsession and significantly detracts from much of the good chabad does.”

    It’s not a general obsession because of the lack of education within lubavitch on the topic, and also because even when we do find the education, it’s considered something to keep hush hush. You’re right, naturally it would be outspoken. In that way, we’re lucky we have the meshichists who while not completely balanced to what The Rebbe expected in many cases (at least to my limited observation, and obviously there are exceptions), balance the imbalance that “mainstream” lubavitch has by allowing the hush hush mentality, which is definitely not where we should be at today.

    The Rebbe focused on hafotzas hamaayanos for many decades, but the last year or so we had (where he prepared us for our unique stage today), he said that focus today needs to be welcoming moshiach and to do everything we do, Torah, mitzvos, shlichus etc with that intention. Much of lubavitch unfortunately isn’t plugged in to this today due to factors mentioned.

    #2268624
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “But you could have just let the thread stay dead.”

    I think this is a misunderstanding. I’m not at all embarrassed of anything The Rebbe said or taught, and my personal views. But, like many Lubavitchers, I’m not looking to start a conversation on the Rebbe as Moshiach because: a) maybe I joined a thread for a different topic and am interested in hearing from others on that one, and most importantly b) there are a number of perquisites I would want a person to have before getting into this topic, which lubavitch itself hardly discusses openly:

    1) keeping Torah and mitzvos and knowing how. 2) having a passion and (also through) education about the time period of Geula in general 3) having a passion for Moshiach as a person- only then would this become relevant.

    Since this is even less common outside lubavitch than within lubavitch (2 and 3), The number of times I’ve discussed it in person with non Lubavitchers I think is 0.

    But if you’re (collectively) starting the conversation, even sarcastically, by all means- we have what to talk about.

    #2268627
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ Yankel berel wasn’t addressing whether there was speculation as to the identity of Mashiach he asked you: Was there no group of people thirsting for geula like you, in the whole 1900 plus years since the Hurban ?

    Note, thirsting for the geula, not speculating as to identity.”

    Of course there was or bar koziva and shabsai tzvi would have never gotten off the ground, especially considering the danger from the Romans and worldwide governments in the time of ST.

    It’s funny how people seem to think it’s wrong to speculate about moshiach because look how the others turned out.

    Fun fact: there’s only one Moshiach and one final Geula- so obviously the others didn’t work out because it wasn’t the time/ person. But we see how Rabbi Akiva put his name on Bar Kochva simply because he was victorious in battle- he obviously was no great tzadik if he was able to say what he did that led to his downfall and the massacre of myriads.

    Similarly, many Rabbonim put their names on ST, and world Jewry waited breathlessly, although he ended up doing aveiros publicly that no regular yarei shomayim would do.

    Taken from that perspective- the bar is actually quite low- and The Rebbe incomparably more qualified, as he led us without any other private life since he took on the nesius, and remained a tzadik until he had to part from us, led and leads a world army of shluchim which is unprecedented as far as I know in our entire history to care for every type of Jew. His Chassidim are involved with the not frum, frum (teaching Chassidus as well as helping with any situation asked, bgashmius uvruchnius), and caring as parents, teachers and mashpiim etc for our own.

    #2268628
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ There are only two types of nevi’im. 1. The navi to whom all the laws of a navi apply, including, as yb mentioned, someone being chayav misa bidei Shamayim if he doesn’t obey the navi, and 2. A navi sheker.

    You can’t have “half-a-Navi” which is stronger than ruach hakodesh but not quite the full nevuah.”

    Yes I’m not saying the Rebbe was a half Navi, what I’m saying is, if I proclaim I have Nevuah, and say it was true, you wouldn’t be chayav misa for doubting me- it would need some sort of Rabbinic seal of approval. Which the Rebbe never sought, probably for this very reason- so it would stay motivational and not threat heavy

    #2268629
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ Please don’t put words into my mouth. I didn’t say that Lubavich willingly lowers standards because of baalei teshuva. What I said was that because of the baalei teshuva, and other reasons – namely concern with others, Mashiach, mivtzoim, and not enough with themselves – they overlook the vitally imporatant aspect of upholding tznius.”

    Thanks for clarifying. I remember hearing in one central lubavitch school that people used to just dress Tznius automatically because they knew they would stand in front of the Rebbe, and after Gimmel Tammuz, Tznius plunged as a result. But, there definitely is concern for Tznius in lubavitch today, I had it all the time- they just had to come up with educational material that gels with our hashkofa, there was at least one great curriculum when I was in high school, there are many after school tznius clubs, and bH there are many many tznuos within lubavitch today, although we will not push away those who aren’t, so you see them too.

    #2268632
    CS
    Participant

    CA

    “And this is why it’s a shame you don’t have a live rebbe because he’s not around to tell you what to do so your chassidus can’t fix it because he didn’t tell you to

    על אלה אנחנו בוכי׳”

    Ironically this is exactly the point. The Rebbe told us all the sparks have been elevated already, and Moshiach has been appointed and has already started his tasks. By the responsibility for bringing the geula here lies on the nation.

    Basically he cannot complete his task without us. Which is a big chiddush.

    In the times of Moshiach, we ask Hashem daily to return our Judges and advisors. Judges to pasken Halacha and advisors to help you get there personally (mashpia). Note that there is no request for policeman. We will not need policeman when Moshiach comes, because our whole interest will be לדעת את הוי׳.

    The Rebbe taught that Geula is a gradual process that we bring through our avoda in golus.

    Therefore, if you will only do what you should due to external communal pressure/ Halacha policeman etc., you are not ready for geula! Or should I say, you are not living in a geula mind space/ life style.

    And we have been tasked with this mission- to live Yiddishkeit inside out. Appointing a personal Rav and Mashpia and consulting with them because you care.

    Is it easy as a community? No. Is everyone under the name Chabad achieving this? No, not yet. Is this necessary, and the order of the day? 💯

    #2268634
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ That’s not the reaction I get when I get accosted by Lubavichers who try to prove to me that the LR is Mashiach, and I’m not talking about infrequent cases.”

    Unless you live in Israel I find this hard to believe that someone comes up to you and starts off with this. As MS said

    #2268636
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ That is one way it happens, although they don’t quote the Rambam. Another is when I pass a tefillin booth or similar, and the Lubavicher manning it apparently wants to make an impression on the people with him, so he calls out to me – an obviously chassidic non-Lubavitch type – and makes a comment ‘demonstrating’ how he and his cohorts are better than us lesser Yidden.

    I have NEVER been the one to start the ‘altercation’.”

    Interesting. Not in my experience, or knowledge of communal affairs. Maybe you’re by one of the 3 or so Meshichist yeshivos in America.

    #2268639
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ When I am at a Lubavich simcha – as you know I have a number of family members and acquaintances who are Lubavichers – and am sitting at a table where I am the lone non-conformist. A glass or two (or three or four…) of alcohol usually makes the imbiber feel that it is up to him to convert the infidel, and I am harrangued by him, often with the encouragement of some of the others, to show me how my chassidus is wrong, and how Lubavich has the only true path. He has the Nassi Hador, the Navi and the Mashiach, while all I have is a belief in nigleh and a stress on tznius. (Please note, that in most instances the imbiber had very little knowledge of nigleh, and his risque comments show he has no inkling at all of tznius.)

    Now I am not saying it happens all the time, but I am saying that that is the most common situation when it happens. And it does indeed happen.”

    I’m sorry that this has been your experience. Ironic considering your relatives aren’t Chassidish by your descriptions. But I find that the putting down of others attitude comes from the Nefesh habehamis- not from a sincere place. It’s unfortunate when the NFHB dresses up in a kapote.

    #2268640
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ I don’t think so. That would imply that all the other gedolei olam were only tznius when they were in company, and that is being motzi shem ra on all of them. I believe Shaul and Kimchis were singled out because they went above the letter of the law.”

    What I’ve learned, and am implying is that a true sense of tznius is am exactly that, a sense of yiras shomayim, and you know it most when it’s kept even in the bathroom, even in the desert, and even when no one is home. Obviously, kimchis dressed 💯 tznius and so did Shaul. Those were outcomes though, not the definition.

    Micha says הצנע לכת עם אלוקיך, not one specific act, but a mode of life of being aware of Hashem’s presence at all times (which will obviously manifest publicly too).

    #2268641
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ CS, you’re beautiful explanation of the ‘value’ of the shortcomings in Lubavich, doesn’t really hold water.

    Just as a parent’s primary job is to instruct – yes, even dictate – to a child the way to behave, and a rabbi’s job is to instruct his community how to behave, a Rebbe’s job is to instruct and dictate to his chassidim. Allowing each one to move along at their own pace is great, as long as it does not affect others, and a lack of tznius – both in dress and in mixing of the genders – affects everyone in the community.

    Furthermore, you can’t say that your rebbe didn’t attempt to ‘dictate’ to others, as there are numerous accounts of him meeting other rebbes and telling them that they should instruct their chassidim to learn chassidus, and to publish various works of chassidus – something that was against those rebbes’ mesorah.”

    Of course I educate my children, as to what’s right and wrong, but that will not be at the expense of a communal attitude of only allowing perfect children and families in the school, as friends etc.

    I saw Rav Shteinman A”H, say that such an attitude is pure gaava, and he or someone else litvish shared that there was no such thing in the cheders of pre war Europe.

    Of course as a mother I remain vigilant, and if I see a friend of influencing her/ him negatively, instead of him/ her influencing the friends positively, I will need to step in and possibly break down that friendship.

    But as a general rule, we are very clear with standards, and also encourage Ahavas Yisrael.

    The Baal Shem Tov taught that a yid can descend to this world for 70 or 80 years just to do one favor for another yid.

    How many opportunities would we miss on our calling in life with the excluding attitude?

    And where does that end? None of us are 💯 perfect?

    #2268647
    CS
    Participant

    Arso
    The Rebbe shared what was close to his heart and urged them to do so (not sure why printing/ sharing Torah would be against mesora- this phrase is sounding overused), but they were free to do what they wished with it. The Rebbe also demanded of Chassidim, (the Rebbe spoke on tznius too btw), but ultimately it’s a chossid led movement in both deciding who the Rebbe is, and b) having the space to implement what we can of The Rebbes endless heights of expectations, without being excluded from the community.

    #2268648
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ As far as I understood then, the Litvak’s complaint was not that people expressed a yearning for Mashiach. Rather, it was the terminology which seemed (to him and to others) that they were demanding Mashiach. Which is indeed the way the LR encouraged it”

    I suppose this litvak didn’t know the chofetz chaim was the same:)

    #2268649
    CS
    Participant

    Avira,

    “ One should not feel that they are frum if they abandon mitzvos, even one of them. You can show love to distant, sinful jews – whether they’re tinknos shenishbu or not – without bringing the mess into klal yisroel.”

    So you keep all the mitzvos perfectly? You never fail at even one of hilchos shabbos? Shmiras einayim? Lashon hara? Etc etc?

    Just yesterday I saw in Rambam that (at least in his time) if someone makes a shvuah inappropriately with Hashem’s name or kinui, he should place him under nidui privately for chillul Hashem, but remove it immediately so as not to cause others to stumble as they don’t know about the nidui. And why not make it public? Because then there are be no community as everyone will be ostracized….

    #2268653
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ the way to keep the kid aligned is to say something like, “It’s great that that woman does so much chesed, but unfortunately it’s really terrible that she is not tzniusdik. What a pity. Her chesed would be worth so much more.”

    Why do you think emphasizing the negative is better and produces better results? To me that will result in seeing everyone as less than (while conveniently forgetting that I also have work to do.)

    There are two parts to the person: your approach is to want everyone to see the yetzer hard in them, while we don’t excuse the yetzer hara (it’s true) but choose to pick up the Neshama in the person and be inspired.

    There are many many children who have grown up into wonderful Chassidishe adults with this chinuch. Yes it’sa fine line. Everything in chinuch is a fine line.

    Chabad is far from collapsing. We have only expanded both as Anash and as shluchim, especially post Gimmel Tammuz.

    #2268655
    CS
    Participant

    In Chabad we learn to focus on ourselves and only see positive in others (unless we need to be mechanech.)

    ברכנו אבינו כולנו כאחד

    When do we receive Hashem’s brachos? Only when we are United with others.

    Why do we (in Chabad) start with hareini? If I don’t Love every single Jew, my davening cannot draw down any brachos, because I’m a broken vessel.

    A yid can find all kinds of reasons why something not good happens to himself, but to excuse others pain? Unacceptable.

    #2268656
    CS
    Participant

    לא הביט און ביעקב- when? When we do the same for each other

    #2268731
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    CS, I must say, something is very odd. Lubavitch has spoken this talk in earlier years, how Peilischer Chasidim make it all about the Rebbe but in Lubavitch the Chasidim do the work and the Rebbe is just the teacher.

    But now you have the whole Chasidus more Rebbe-centric than anyone else. And you constantly hear about his greatness and status. But if you’re putting him up there—way more than Peilischer Chasidim—how can you also say that his influence is limited?

    Which is it?

    #2268733
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: Interesting. Why did your relatives become lubavitch?

    They were born Lubavich and have never strayed from it.

    what I’m saying is, if I proclaim I have Nevuah, and say it was true, you wouldn’t be chayav misa for doubting me- it would need some sort of Rabbinic seal of approval.

    If you proclaim Nevuah you have to prove it by predicting exact occurrences (unless, as far as I remember, another known Navi declares you a Navi). If someone can’t, he is, I believe, chayav misa bidei Shamayim. If someone can, then someone who doesn’t listen to him is chayav. I don’t think there’s any halfway.

    The Rebbe told us all the sparks have been elevated already

    That has always bothered me. If ALL the sparks have been elevated, then Mashiach should have come. I know the LR said that it therefore makes absolutely no sense that Mashiach hasn’t come, but to me, and those with whom I have discussed it, that sounds like nonsense at the very least, and apikorsus at the very worst.

    Unless you live in Israel I find this hard to believe that someone comes up to you and starts off with this

    I have had it happen on three continents!

    I’m sorry that this has been your experience. Ironic considering your relatives aren’t Chassidish by your descriptions.

    The relatives I was talking about in the story about their Chabad House, and the people I have sat with at simchos, are not connected.

    #2268746
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: I saw Rav Shteinman A”H, say that such an attitude is pure gaava, and he or someone else litvish shared that there was no such thing in the cheders of pre war Europe.

    I saw that clip, and as far as I remember it wasn’t about kids whose parents aren’t tzniusdik or who didn’t keep important ikarei hadas. It was about kids who weren’t top in learning and maybe also in behavior. If I’m wrong, please show me where I can see that clip.

    I suppose this litvak didn’t know the chofetz chaim was the same:)

    The Chofetz Chaim demanded Mashiach?! Do you have a source for that?

    To Avirah who wrote “One should not feel that they are frum if they abandon mitzvos, even one of them” you replied: So you keep all the mitzvos perfectly? You never fail at even one of hilchos shabbos? Shmiras einayim? Lashon hara? Etc etc?

    No. We frum people do lots of aveiros, at least I do, Rachmono litzlon, but we do not ‘abandon’ even one of them. We are nichshal and hope to be better. If someone, on the other hand, marries a shiksa, he is abandoning a mitzva, not just being nichshal.

    Why do you think emphasizing the negative is better and produces better results?

    From literally decades of experience with kids and young adults: it works! When a kid sees that the person does something blatantly wrong, e.g. doesn’t dress appropriately, and you stress that the person has so many good middos, the kid more often than not understands that the good deeds are mechaper on the bad, and for a kid to think that is terrible and extremely harmful.

    #2268748
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: I must say, something is very odd. Lubavitch has spoken this talk in earlier years, how Peilischer Chasidim make it all about the Rebbe but in Lubavitch the Chasidim do the work and the Rebbe is just the teacher.

    Have you ever heard of a straw man argument? If you haven’t here is the definition: an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent’s real argument.

    In simple terms, rather than arguing with the facts, you represent the facts in a manner which makes it easy for you to dispute them.

    “Peilisher chassidim” and their beliefs are something invented by Lubavich, so that Lubavich can say, “We are much better.” I know of no “Peilisher chassidim” who have ever said that the Rebbe is the one who does all the work!

    But Lubavich is no stranger to straw man arguments. Just read the Memoirs of the Rayatz and see how the whole Litvishe world is represensted. Basically, stupid shallow people who thought they were tzaddikim.

    It’s the same with mussar. Everyone in Lubavich knows that mussar seforim just put you down, while chassidus lifts you up. Strange because none of the mussar seforim I learn have ever put me down. Can you show me, for example, one place in Orchos Tzaddikim that puts you down?

    #2268749
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    CS

    “The Rebbe taught that Geula is a gradual process that we bring through our avoda in golus.

    Therefore, if you will only do what you should due to external communal pressure/ Halacha policeman etc., you are not ready for geula! Or should I say, you are not living in a geula mind space/ life style.“

    A rebbe is a משפיע not a policeman (I don’t know any rebbe/Rav that’s a “policeman”

    You are lacking a משפיע that can’t guide you in the right direction

    I don’t see how this was different than my previous post that you commented about

    #2268840
    GadolHadofi
    Participant

    CS,

    “…balance the imbalance that “mainstream” lubavitch has by allowing the hush hush mentality, which is definitely not where we should be at today”

    I have no idea what your word-salad means but regardless, this nutty mashichist obsession is most certainly widespread and destroys much of the good done by chabad. It’s only getting worse as the decades pass so until the Rabbinic leadership puts a full halt to it, all the justifications and arguments in the world won’t make it any more palatable.

    #2268864
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @arso
    If you proclaim Nevuah you have to prove it by predicting exact occurrences (unless, as far as I remember, another known Navi declares you a Navi). If someone can’t, he is, I believe, chayav misa bidei Shamayim. If someone can, then someone who doesn’t listen to him is chayav. I don’t think there’s any halfway.

    the navi sheker gets Mitah be beit din .
    not listening to navi emet is bidei shamayim.

    According to [warped] neohabad theology , their own rebbi should [chvsh] be hayav mitah bebeit din.
    Their rabanim claimed [not the so called ‘hateful’ critics of habad] in the journal kfar H, that the proof of their rebbi’s nevuah is the fact that he predicted no one will be hurt in Israel during the Gulf War in 1991.
    Rambam writes clearly that even if one of the details does not come true , it is clear that he is navi sheker. And hayav mitah bebet din.
    There is no half way. At least in Rambam.

    They [or their leader] tried to elevate their leader to the navi status of the Rambams level.
    Anyone honest enough will agree.
    CS is attempting to keep the cake and eat it.

    #2268973
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @CS

    what I’m saying is, if I proclaim I have Nevuah, and say it was true, you wouldn’t be chayav misa for doubting me- it would need some sort of Rabbinic seal of approval.
    —-
    Wrong.
    If you bring proof thats enough .
    Source ? rambam hil yesodei hatora [sefer hamada]
    no mention of any rabbinical approval.

    btw. habad rabanim claimed that their leader has nevua .
    this was publicised by habad rabanim.
    Includes automatic hiyuv mitah for klal yisrael for not listening.
    And automatic hiyuv mitah bebeit din for claiming it besheker.

    #2268987
    ARSo
    Participant

    tb: <emthe navi sheker gets Mitah be beit din .
    not listening to navi emet is bidei shamayim.

    Thanks. I figured I’d get it wrong from memory… and I did.

    #2269008
    CS
    Participant

    Avira, coffee addict
    “Cs – i can only imagine what was edited out if you actually wrote that people who are not chasidish “care in general less about yiddishkeit” – if by yiddishkeit you mean cultish messianic hysteria over a deceased rabbi, then you’re right, but that applies to every branch of chasidus besides Lubavitch too.
    If you want to see non-chasidish jews caring about yiddishkeit; where was Lubavitch in the city field event, where klal yisroel came together in all of its stripes to acknowledge and accept on themselves to not use unfiltered internet? Where is Lubavitch in the siyum hashas every 7 years, when klal yisroel celebrates its cherished Torah and their completion of the gemara? Where is Lubavitch kollelim, where idealistic young families sacrifice a life of material success to be davuk in Hashem and His Torah day and night, not just as a means of becoming a missionary in Hawaii?
    Klal yisroel cares about Torah. They do not, however, care about personality cults.”

    Sorry the word Chassidish can mean two things and I see it was confused. Within lubavitch, Chassidish is like what yeshivish is to litvish. I was saying that those within lubavitch who don’t care to strive to be Chassidish will not have passion about many things, this included. That’s what I was referring to. And the only things edited out were the names of two podcasts by lubavitch youth today, with moshiach passion. Not sure why they were edited out- there were no links.

    #2269012
    CS
    Participant

    AAQ,
    “ I am not sure are you addressing 3 yo or 18 yo kids, but why do you need to connect these 2 issues together and also address judging every person you meet? If you see someone doing chesed, discuss that act, you don’t need to either approve or discount everything that person did. Hope the kid sees enough positive examples at other times.”

    Agreed. She isn’t doing Chessed because she isn’t tznius- her Chessed is an expression of her Neshama. Ironically, it’s actually the opposite in Yiddishkeit- the bad a Yid does is not the real him, it’s temporary, and gets washed off through teshuva or yissurim etc, but the mitzvos one does are eternal connections to Hashem and have everlasting effect.

    #2269031
    CS
    Participant

    HaLeivi,

    “ CS, I must say, something is very odd. Lubavitch has spoken this talk in earlier years, how Peilischer Chasidim make it all about the Rebbe but in Lubavitch the Chasidim do the work and the Rebbe is just the teacher.

    But now you have the whole Chasidus more Rebbe-centric than anyone else. And you constantly hear about his greatness and status. But if you’re putting him up there—way more than Peilischer Chasidim—how can you also say that his influence is limited?

    Which is it?”

    Great question:). I think it’s unfortunate that Chabad is known for being Rebbe centric- because of how it reflects on other groups. We regard The Rebbe and his word as kodesh kodoshim, and that is both a natural outcome of relating to a Rebbe of our Rebbes caliber, and also a result of the Rebbes tremendous hiskashrus to the Frierdiker Rebbe, and farbrengens about hiskashrus to the FR, both before he undertook the nesius and the year afterwards. But within that same time period, in the opening maamar of The Rebbe, he emphasized that he’s only there to assist us and we need to do our own work.

    I think it used to be quite common that when any Rebbe of any kreiz instructed any chossid, it would be viewed the same way. Unfortunately, it seems in other kreizen , maybe not all, but based on the people I’ve met and interacted with on this, they see the Rebbe as someone to admire, but they can tell he isn’t say, a tzadik of Tanya.

    So for example, when someone asked Rav Lau why he associates with crazy lubavitch, he asked the fellow what he would do if his Rosh Yeshiva asked him to go to a forsaken place to spread Yiddishkeit. The fellow said he would ask about chinuch? Mikvah? Local kosher stores? Etc. Rav Lau responded none and again asked what he would say. The fellow answered he would tell his Rosh Yeshiva to go himself!

    In Chabad, we know that the Rebbe was connected above in a way different than the average. There was clear ruach hakodesh/ mind reading etc on a regular basis. And therefore if he asks me to go on shlichus, or not to go (sometimes harder), that this is my personal mission in this world from Hashem, spoken through the Rebbe.

    So because of the awe this generates, unfortunately we have this name of being Rebbe centric, when really this is exactly how the Rambam describes how one should treat his Rebbe.

    Yet, the Rebbe can give treasures of sichos on how to live in a mindset and lifestyle ready for geula, and how to prepare the world etc. All very clear. But if I don’t take that and implement it, The mission isn’t happening and all the Rebbes efforts are cvs להבל ולריק.

    Of course, The Rebbe set tremendously high goals and standards and not everyone has found their way there yet. But they know that it’s not the Rebbes issue, the Rebbes words are as relevant as ever, but they’re not holding there yet Mitzad their Nefesh habehamis etc.

    Hope this clarifies.

    disclaimer: apologies to those whose kavod to their rav were misrepresented

    #2269030
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Without a rebbe, chabad continues to fall into disarray even in its basic rabbinic functions. Recently, a bunch of rabbis broke off from the Crown Heights Beis Din and made their own kashrus agency, which now certifies Shor Habor, a meat company which i anyways avoided due to the possibility of god-in-a-body worshippers doing the shechitah.

    #2269037
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: She isn’t doing Chessed because she isn’t tznius- her Chessed is an expression of her Neshama…

    The point being discussed in this story is not the way you should feel about the woman, it’s the way you’re being mechanech your kids. When an adult sees someone not-tzniusidk doing some great chesed – or a similar scenario – he can look at the good on its own. But your daughter doesn’t work that way. She sees everything, and as much as you may want to think that she thinks like you, and is discerning, she is much more impressionable. Any comment you make that could be taken by your daughter as condoning the non-tznius – even though you certainly have no intention of condoning it – may be taken by her as condoning it.

    That’s why you have to ALWAYS be negative about the aspect you don’t want your daughter to accept. In decades of dealing with young people I have seen many people go completely off R”L, and many go partly off – some of them relatives, unfortunately – and it is nearly always because of parents/family expressing the “good side” of the person who is not frum.

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