Clarification to mod and DaMoshe

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  • #2267385
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: I must protest your general denigration of an entire demographic of baalei teshuva…

    I denigrated the BTs?! I don’t remember doing that! I keep saying that it’s the kids of shluchim, and a number of shluchim themselves, who I am complaining.

    I have close relatives who run a Chabad house – official shluchim, not mushrooms (yankel berel et al, have you heard that term?) – and who regulary post pictures of what goes on in their institution. Forget the (not-yet-)BTs who are there and are doing what they are doing, although in my humble opinion there’s no need to post pictures of that, I’m talking about the shluchim themselves. Shomu Shamayim! Because of tznius issues I won’t elaborate!

    #2267415
    sechel83
    Participant

    if the only issue you have with christians is that they believe yoshke is mossia, i dont know where to start.
    the idea of what you call “promoting moshiach” : moshiach told the baal shem tov that moshiach will come when his wellsprings will be spread outside – when all jews will learn chassidus. (see keser shem tov first letter) ושאלתי את פי משיח, אימת אתי מר, והשיב לי, בזאת תדע, בעת שיתפרסם למודך ויתגלה בעולם ויפוצו מעיינותיך חוצה מה שלמדתי אותך והשגת
    so chabad who follows the ways of the baal shem tov, try to spread chassidus to bring moshiach.
    telling others the rebbe is moshiach, is not clearly from the rebbe. but to explain the approach of the ones who do this: obviously the one teaching toras hachassidus which is a taste of the torah of moshiach – is moshiach. he’s the yechida klalis. now when the rebbe was alive, simply if all jews would accept him as moshiach, we would have been able to build the bais hamikdash, and all move to eretz yisroel. this needs to happen thru jews accepting someone as moshiach. the rambam clearly writes moshiach does not need to do wonders,
    now even though we cant see the rebbe, the rebbe has a massive “army” continuing his work, and when all jews are ready, we can build the bais hamikdash and move to isreal. to my knowledge chabad is growing and growing and biderech hateva, the rate chabad chassidus is going now, pretty soon every jew will be learning chassidus.
    its also explained in chassidus (derech mitzvosecha and many other places) that a melech can only be thru accepting his malchus by the nation.
    i never saw ananswer whether you guys are chassidim, litvish etc?
    also can you explain to me how moshaich will be accepted by all jews? mekoros?

    Also putting aside everything: what is the issue with promoting moshiach? 1 makor that its wrong? Saying it was never done dosent mean its wrong, especially after torah shebal peh was written down. (btw rav bridewitz on youtube says that they once told reb moshe that chabad is “promothing” moshiach, and reb moshe feinstein said so? Whats the problem? You could deny this – no problem, but still rav bridewitz does not think its an issue, (and anyone who speaks bad about any jew – thats called lashon hara and its forbidden to accept))
    There are plenty of things jews do today that jews didnt do 100 yrs ago: kolel for everyone, printing seforim especially translations and explanations, women working, late shidduchim, using technology (whatever level), does evey step i take need to have a mesorah?
    also you never answered me about reb hillel zaltman?
    gut shabbos, go learn chassidus and wake up your neshama

    #2267499
    yankel berel
    Participant

    About RAMBAN’s writing re someone’s Mashiach claim where he did not fulfill the nevi’ims promises during his lifetime.
    It is in Kitvei HaRamaban , under Sefer Havikuach [milhamot hashem].
    Ramban writes in a very clear fashion.
    This is proof that he is not Mashiach.
    End of story.

    #2267522
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ You really don’t get it?! Since when was there a significance to dor shevi’i? Didn’t it only become significant when the LR decided that he was Mashiach, and he then used ‘dor shevi’i’ to refer to himself?”

    The Medrash came up with kol shviin chavivin. And the Rebbe was a person who had communication with the realms above, so yea, he was about to tell us where we are holding whether as a generation, or to help individuals etc.

    #2267523
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “Which mekubalim?”

    Apparently (yes this is in zichronos- you’re welcome to do your own research as desired) after shabsai Tzvi, there was a split among yidden with some forbidding the study of Kabbala entirely (and they later opposed Chassidus). The ones who did encourage the study of Kabbala (as appropriate), were the ones who also generally encouraged women’s learning. It’s also well known that the Maharal gave his fiancé Pearl a learning program, and she later said she never learned less than 5 hours a day.

    So this all predates Sara schenirer, but in any case, yes, most communities now encourage the girls learning of Torah shebaal peh (including rashi etc), The question is only to what extent.

    And what I said about Chassidus still holds even workout that. The same way women always needed to learn halacha lmaase, ahavas Hashem and yiras Hashem, and yedias Hashem are actual mitzvos that women are mechuyav in.

    #2267524
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    CS: Couldn’t resist this one. If you’re referring to this forum, the pattern has always been, people asking a Lubavitcher on a random thread about a completely different topic, “do you believe the Rebbe is Moshiach? How do you explain the Atzmus sicha?

    “Do you mind having a look at who started this thread?”

    As if you don’t know that it was in continuation to that last one, and just wanted to clear up some possible misconceptions on posts that were approved before it was shut down…

    #2267525
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ So here is where you have been fooled:
    1. The sefer Kehillas Yaakov is talking specifically and only about Rebbi Yehudah Hanossi. There were nesi’im in E”Y both before and after Rebbi Yehudah Hanassi, and he is NOT even referring to any of them.
    2. The part of the footnote from Habadpedia that continues about nishmoso kelulah, has nothing to do with the sefer Kehillas Yaakov, and it is in fact from Iggeres Hakodesh (of the Baal Hatanya) in relation to Yaakov Avinu. Not in relation to anybody else since! (In Iggeres Hakodesh he uses that terminology first in relation to Adam Harishon, and he then says it applies as well to Yaakov Avinu, but it stops there.)”

    Thanks for looking it up. I agree with you that if that is what the sefer says it is misleading in this context. I got it from a short page on the various sources on nossi hador, so although it fits into the topic, it doesn’t fit into the context of this discussion.

    #2267526
    CS
    Participant

    Yb,

    “What did your rebbi say on purim 1956 [or another one of those years] about the hazon ish ?
    The exact words , please ?
    and what was the insinuation, please ?
    Thanks in advance for your honesty .”

    I looked this up I think a few years ago when I saw it here (probably). The Rebbe was quoting, in the very early years, at a small farbrengen, what a mashpia had said regarding the Chazon Ish, that even someone such as he, would be jealous in gan Eden of a little boy learning Chassidus (I hope I’m paraphrasing correctly.) the context was the greatness of Chassidus, not denigrating misnagdim.

    Now, if the Rebbe treated others outside lubavitch, disdainfully in general, I could see how this story could be brought as proof of that. The fact that the Rebbe cared for others outside lubavitch is widely known and documented in books and videos (yes by lubavitch organizations, but the people are videoed and pictured by name.)

    And again, The context was the greatness of Chassidus.

    This reminds me of another Chassidishe teaching that the loftiest Malach would give up everything for a single amen Yehei Shmei Rabba by a yid.

    The intent there too, is not to denigrate the Malach…

    #2267527
    CS
    Participant

    Yb,

    “ What happens when there is no satisfactory answer ?
    Should we accept an unsatisfactory answer, just out of fear not to be labeled ‘hater’ ?
    Or do we have the right to insist on proper answers ?”

    No keep asking, sincere people can handle it. The problem is only when the only association one has with any particular group is listing problems they have, and when addressed, just go to the next. Anti semitism works the same way, no?

    #2267528
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “I specifically asked you to comment on my demonstrating that Habadpedia was misquoting for their own purposes, and now we have two days of your radio silence! Are you trying to prove us correct when we assert that when Lubavichers can’t provide a satisfactory answer, they just ignore the facts?”

    My radio silence has nothing to do with the above- I just am exploring new levels of keeping away from addiction of any sort… from the yetzer hara to more subtle forms of giving time here when I have other things to be done…

    #2267530
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ Where is CS? I can think of a few options:

    1. Not feeling well c”v or some other problem not giving her the time to reply.
    2. Looking for a way out of admitting that Habadpedia falsified and misinterpreted quotes to push their own agenda.
    3. Avoiding the issue because she knows that Habadpedia is lying, and (being a Lubavicher) she can’t admit that a quasi-official Lubavich website would lie.
    4. Being totally stunned into realizing that she has been brainwashed all these years into believing anything that has been quoted.

    I certainly hope it’s not no. 1, and I would really like it to be no. 4, but I doubt it. At any rate, I would really like to hear what she has to say about it.”

    This is funny, I thought you’d appreciate the break after I went completely overboard with my time last motzei shabbos as you said.

    #2267529
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    Or should I say more important things (there’s pretty much always what to do, but it’s ok not to wash dishes at this time of my night…)

    #2267531
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ I didn’t deny that Lubavich had the major share of underground limud Torah in Russia. Rather, I was arguing that they weren’t the only ones.”

    Thanks for clarifying. For the sake of honesty and closure as well as my own curiosity, please do find me the numbers, names etc or even groups in cities of the individuals you are referring to. I’d love to fact check it with the Zaltzmans who were there learning underground at the time.

    #2267535
    CS
    Participant

    Ca,

    “ יחי אדוננו מורינו ורבינו מלך משיח לעולם ועד printed on everything from yarmulkes to booklets printed from 770 to any sign you see in ארץ ישראל with the rebbes image

    You can’t be serious”

    Of course yechi is well known. I just thought it meant ma zaro bachayim af hu bachayim, until I requested a thorough education on the topic when I was asked about this being literal by other Chassidish (not Chabad) girls I meant.

    Really not a focus in our education as a community. There are a select few schools in America, and I know Israel is known for being more into it, but even the ones I know, it’s definitely not the primary focus. A detail of a detail.

    #2267559
    GadolHadofi
    Participant

    CS,

    So while you admit that most of chabad believes the Rebbe, zt”l, niftar three decades ago, is mashiach and that they declare this by plastering “yechi” over everything from yarmulkes to billboards, it’s not an obsession. Nothing to see here, let’s all just move on?

    Sorry, nobody’s buying. It’s a dangerous obsession and significantly detracts from much of the good chabad does.

    #2267645
    CS
    Participant

    Yb,

    “ Was there no group of people thirsting for geula like you, in the whole 1900 plus years since the Hurban ?

    Would you feel comfortable to answer ‘yes’ to the above question ?”

    I cannot put myself in the mindset of our people t throughout our entire golus. Maybe there was speculation (as there was by the third Chabad Rebbe) but nothing came of it, and it died out.

    Other factors: for much of our history, world Jewry was separated. Ashkenazim hardly knew of the Rambam, and Sephardim hardly knew of Rashi. Which would make speculation unlikely.

    Also, for much of our history, there wasn’t much time for any speculation when we were just busy with literal survival.

    All I can do is explain the mindset of today’s Chabad…

    #2267647
    CS
    Participant

    Yb,

    “ But deep down, on the inside, are they not obsessed?
    Think about it. This not just some argument about whose rebbi is bigger compared to someone else’s.
    This is literally earth-shattering news.

    M started the ge’oula.
    We are on a cosmic intersection.
    If you really believe it, it would be extremely hard NOT to be obsessed.
    That’s only natural.”

    Interesting you view it this way. For me, and watching a student as well, when we learn the sichos that clearly point out the Rebbe as Moshiach through obvious hints, it’s kind of like a quiet, “Oh really? Yah I guess that makes sense. The Rebbe is nossi hador and nossi hador is Moshiach shebador. Right cool…”

    #2267648
    CS
    Participant

    Yb,

    “ To the best of my limited knowledge, there is no need for a Sanhedrin or any other big body of rabbis to pasken that
    1] going against a navi is mitah biyedei shamayim.
    2] that this person is a navi if he indeed is a navi.

    So , habads claim that their leader is a navi.
    No , have to correct myself here – habads leaders claim that habads leader is a navi , does not need sanhedrin nor any other body to pasken it is so.

    If it is true , and it obviously is, according to habad, the obligation to listen takes effect immediately.
    On all of us.
    Immediately.

    So the question is now,
    Are [new]habad imposing their navi on all the rest of us ????”

    Like I said I never saw the navi thing used in this way. More like the Rebbe is saying it as Nevuah/ stronger than regular ruach hakodesh- so it’s really real and happening.

    I do think the punishment aspect of navi which you are bringing up would only apply if the Rebbe was certified/ pronounced as a navi by others- whether in Beis din or whatever the protocol is. I am admittedly ignorant in the exact Halachos defining this. The idea of navi with regards to the Rebbe I have only seen working in a positive sense.

    #2267650
    CS
    Participant

    Arso

    “CS, now that you’re back posting I was wondering whether you are going to address the above.”

    When I post, I reply in order so I hopefully don’t miss any posts directed at me. Currently towards the bottom of page 8.

    #2267652
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ Another anecdotal proof that shows that Lubavichers are far better than others! Well done! (And don’t worry about the fact that even if the story is true it’s the exception to the rule. Who cares? As long as we can continue claiming that the tznius in Crown Heights is of the highest standard.)”

    Context please! This was in response to your claim that Chabad willingly lowers standards because of baalei teshuva. I brought this to show we aren’t afraid to uphold the highest standards, even in comparison to others, where deemed appropriate. I don’t know about you but when I lived in and visit Crown heights I see plenty of women and girls dressed fully tznius, and promoting initiatives to promote tznius. Yea there are people who don’t, but it’s definitely not bshita

    #2267668
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: As if you don’t know that it was in continuation to that last one, and just wanted to clear up some possible misconceptions on posts that were approved before it was shut down…>

    But you could have just let the thread stay dead.

    #2267669
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: Thanks for looking it up. I agree with you that if that is what the sefer says it is misleading in this context.

    Thanks for being intellectually honest.

    As to Karliner chassidim etc also running underground Torah study, I can’t give you any info other than I have read and heard about it from Karliner chassidim, and in a discussion not at all related to Lubavich’s activities in Russia.

    #2267743
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: I cannot put myself in the mindset of our people t throughout our entire golus. Maybe there was speculation (as there was by the third Chabad Rebbe) but nothing came of it, and it died out.

    Other factors: for much of our history, world Jewry was separated. Ashkenazim hardly knew of the Rambam, and Sephardim hardly knew of Rashi. Which would make speculation unlikely.

    Yankel berel wasn’t addressing whether there was speculation as to the identity of Mashiach he asked you: Was there no group of people thirsting for geula like you, in the whole 1900 plus years since the Hurban ?

    Note, thirsting for the geula, not speculating as to identity.

    #2267744
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: Interesting you view it this way. For me, and watching a student as well, when we learn the sichos that clearly point out the Rebbe as Moshiach through obvious hints, it’s kind of like a quiet, “Oh really? Yah I guess that makes sense. The Rebbe is nossi hador and nossi hador is Moshiach shebador. Right cool…”

    That’s not the reaction I get when I get accosted by Lubavichers who try to prove to me that the LR is Mashiach, and I’m not talking about infrequent cases.

    Like I said I never saw the navi thing used in this way. More like the Rebbe is saying it as Nevuah/ stronger than regular ruach hakodesh- so it’s really real and happening.
    I do think the punishment aspect of navi which you are bringing up would only apply if the Rebbe was certified/ pronounced as a navi by others- whether in Beis din or whatever the protocol is.

    There are only two types of nevi’im. 1. The navi to whom all the laws of a navi apply, including, as yb mentioned, someone being chayav misa bidei Shamayim if he doesn’t obey the navi, and 2. A navi sheker.

    You can’t have “half-a-Navi” which is stronger than ruach hakodesh but not quite the full nevuah.

    #2267745
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: Context please! This was in response to your claim that Chabad willingly lowers standards because of baalei teshuva.

    Please don’t put words into my mouth. I didn’t say that Lubavich willingly lowers standards because of baalei teshuva. What I said was that because of the baalei teshuva, and other reasons – namely concern with others, Mashiach, mivtzoim, and not enough with themselves – they overlook the vitally imporatant aspect of upholding tznius.

    #2267746
    ARSo
    Participant

    sechel: moshiach told the baal shem tov that moshiach will come when his wellsprings will be spread outside – when all jews will learn chassidus. (see keser shem tov first letter) ושאלתי את פי משיח, אימת אתי מר, והשיב לי, בזאת תדע, בעת שיתפרסם למודך ויתגלה בעולם ויפוצו מעיינותיך חוצה מה שלמדתי אותך והשגת
    so chabad who follows the ways of the baal shem tov, try to spread chassidus to bring moshiach.

    Just a second. Are you insinuating that all the other talmidim of the Mezritcher Maggid did not care about that statement you quoted? Don’t forget you’re referring to Reb LY of Berditchev (a mechutan of the Baal Hatanya), Reb Zusha of Anipoli (who wrote a haskama on the Tanya) and all the other gedolei ha’olam who were talmidim.

    Clearly, the other talmidei Hamaggid understood the meaning of the statement differently to the way the Baal Hatanya understood it (if indeed that was the impetus behind his derech), and they spread chassidus in their own way without stressing the study of the kabbalah aspect of chassidus, as the Baal Hatanya did.

    i never saw ananswer whether you guys are chassidim, litvish etc?

    And I never saw the question, although I have mentioned a number of times that I am a card-carrying member of another chassidus which I’m sure you’ve heard of.

    #2267844
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    That’s not the reaction I get when I get accosted by Lubavichers who try to prove to me that the LR is Mashiach, and I’m not talking about infrequent cases.

    ARSo, I’m very curious. How exactly does this play out?

    Like you’re on the subway or in shul or walking down the street, and a Lubavitcher bochur/yungerman/woman/child approaches you, strikes up conversation, and says: “By the way, I assume you know that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach, because the Rambam says….”

    Is that what happens?

    Or are you the one who usually brings it up, asking a Lubavitcher, “Are you one of those guys who believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach? Why? What’s your proof?”

    Because while I’ve seen the latter take place COUNTLESS times, I have never witnessed the former take place (and I’ve participated in MANY “hafatza” missions to non-Lubavitch shuls and yeshivos), and I wonder how common it really is in the last 20 years or so.

    #2267862
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Arso: “There are only two types of nevi’im…

    I don’t think this is from your better arguments. As a Chosid, you’ve definitely dealt with Bechinos and Inyan of. You must be aware of the many levels of Nevua and Ruch Hakodesh.

    #2267863
    sechel83
    Participant

    @arso we – chabad – have our derech to spread chassidus chabad to everyone, like the alter rebbe – baal hatanya – said that its for every jew. some of the other talmidim held of different ways of spreading chassidus, to focus on belief in the tzadik, coming to him, etc. but they all were involved in spreading the teachings of chassidus.
    are you asking a question? i dont understand.
    alot of comments, the rambam says in igeres taimon that nevuah will return before moshiach comes, he says a year (before 5000)
    everyone always yeared for moshiach the way chabad does, thats why when chabad started saying “we want moshiach now” a litvish gadol said its kefira because it says im yismamea chake lo.
    anyway i doubt the average person outside chabad knows why awaiting moshiach is so important, one of the 13 ikrim. and you you know please answer (aderaba teach your freinds too)

    @arso
    – you cant say which chassidus If you continue to push someone for identifying info your posts will be deleted. 

    #2267865
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ …except in internet access for youth, the things bochurim talk about, tznius and the mixing of the genders. (You won’t convince me otherwise because I witness it firsthand numerous times each week. And I’m talking about sons of shluchim, not just BTs.)

    Btw even with all your explaining of the how engaged couples act etc, it’s still well below the tznius level of other chatzeiros. Actually, that makes it sound just something not as “hiddur mitzvah” as us. I had better clarify. It’s called nevalah in other chatzeiros.”

    It seems that by explaining the Lubavitch model, this, and perhaps other posts, will be answered.

    Since the time of the Alter Rebbe, Chabad has been organized from the bottom up (if you know about tzadik beemunaso yichye vs. yechaye), as opposed to the other Chassidic courts.

    Every individual and family is strongly encouraged to have a personal Rav and mashpia. Even the Rebbe is more of a helper figure than a community dictator.

    Also, lubavitch isn’t into pressuring everyone to look and act the same. We recognize that people are born into different situations, and cannot necessarily be compared. The focus is that one moves upward.

    For example: if a person became frum and works tremendously on himself, he cannot be compared to someone who also works tremendously on himself but was born and raised frum. So if the former doesn’t have the most aidel language at times, we don’t have to emphasize that aspect. And the children of this person can and should upgrade accordingly.

    And let’s not kid ourselves- not every ffb home raises its children in the proper way in every area, and ultimately, we all have where to grow, and it’s our responsibility to tackle it with the same strength we expect those beneath us spiritually to…

    My daughter recently pointed out someone that wasn’t dressed up to par. I told her that she’s right, but does she know this woman is a tremendous baalas Chessed? Why be a garbage collector?

    TBC…

    #2267866
    CS
    Participant

    Cont’

    This approach also enables us to help others much more because we’re not in the mode of retreating. The maamar of the Alter Rebbe on שחורה אני ונאוה is very illuminating in this regard. Of course we may stay more pristine by cutting ourselves off from the world as much as possible, but so would our Neshama by staying up above. The beauty is the willingness to descend and become blackened to an extent, and in the end, with the right intentions, we end up reaching much farther than we would have, מאיר עיני שניהם ה׳.

    There’s also the horaah from the Halacha regarding salting chickens- they can be placed atop another because they’re all giving out and won’t take in blood. So too with us- if we’re busy trying to influence others positively, we won’t be in danger of being influenced negatively.

    I’ll continue in a part 2.

    Part2:
    Of course there’s bechira chofshis- the Rebbe sent out shluchim with the promise that their children’s chinuch will be on his shoulders. One shlucha wasn’t happy with how her son turned out and wrote an angry letter to the Rebbe. The response was that the Rebbe never asked her to put such magazines in her bathrooms…

    (But yes generally, shluchim do have a special brocha with their children.)

    So in summary: our approach takes exposure as a matter of course (more limited when children but when necessary for hafatza etc…) but in the way of being mashpia, and also enables everyone to be honest with themselves and to connect to their role models openly.

    Other paths that segregate seem to have the advantage of less exposure =less challenges = better results.

    Ultimately, the only time we saw a fair comparison was by Soviet Russia, where lubavitch, although affected, “won” by far (unfortunately.)

    #2267872
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ I could handle your posts more if you would come out clearly and say, “They are wrong! I wish they would behave in a more appropriate manner. Furthermore they are giving Lubavich a bad name.” But you can’t say that because everything is so rosey in Lubavich.”

    If you Ask me something specific, I can comment. Of course we have our issues, everyone does. I’ve just been educated that empowering and inspiring is the way forward. For example, a certain well known social media family aren’t the most Chassidish, but instead of seeing themselves as fryacks and veering more and more off course, they see their specific journey as a personal shlichus and imbue all their content with toichen. I admire that mindset. Im here too with the same kind of mindset, although certainly there are those that I know that would never chat on such a forum. I’ve received guidance in the past, and am acting on it. But I’m in giving mode.

    Similarly, there are respected Chabad women on you tube and Chabad.org video, who lecture to mixed audiences as well. I’m sure they’ve spoken to a Rav for their situation, and I admire their light, although I haven’t posted videos publicly etc like them and would prefer not to.

    Yiddishkeit is not a one size fits all. As long as every individual is looking to grow, we’re in a good place. And if they’re not, maybe I’m here to help them too. Etc.

    With my daughter, I agreed that the woman who visited was not dressed up to par, for the sake of clarity, but then taught her how to view the positive. This is how we were taught and how we uplift and are uplifted. That’s how lubavitch can hold any kind of person under its umbrella.

    #2267876
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “Shaul Hamelech and Kimchis were called tznuim because they went over and above what was required lehalacha.”

    They were called tznuim because they were tznius when only Hashem was around…

    #2267864
    sechel83
    Participant

    @arso we – chabad – have our derech to spread chassidus chabad to everyone, like the alter rebbe – baal hatanya – said that its for every jew. some of the other talmidim held of different ways of spreading chassidus, to focus on belief in the tzadik, coming to him, etc. but they all were involved in spreading the teachings of chassidus.
    are you asking a question? i dont understand.
    alot of comments, the rambam says in igeres taimon that nevuah will return before moshiach comes, he says a year (before 5000)
    everyone always yeared for moshiach the way chabad does, thats why when chabad started saying “we want moshiach now” a litvish gadol said its kefira because it says im yismamea chake lo.
    anyway i doubt the average person outside chabad knows why awaiting moshiach is so important, one of the 13 ikrim. and you you know please answer (aderaba teach your freinds too)
    phishing attempts deleted (again)

    #2267916
    sechel83
    Participant

    @arso
    Lashon hara is worse than not keeping tznius. It’s kneged a”z giloy arayos and shfichus domin. Can you please stop talking bad about other Jews.
    Disclaimer: I don’t think me or chabad are better than any other Jew. As I explained before we follow the Baal Shem tov to spread chasidus, because every Jew can gain from learning it for some it will help then keep basic Torah and Mitzvos – like the thousands of Jews who became from thru doing Mitzvos and learning chassidus. For B’nai Torah it will give them more chayus and help them learn Torah lishmah as explained in eitz chayus
    Bh I had the privilege to be born into a chabad family and get a chabad chinuch, I try to share it just like any normal person tries to help others.
    Also we know that is is tachlis hakavanah of Brias haolam.
    Food for thought about tznius in chabad: 1) who exactly are you criticising? The fact that we don’t have a Rebbe cuz he would fix it, well in chabad we don’t tell the Rebbe what to do, it’s the other way around, this the obviously the kavanah (as hinted in the last maamarim and sichos)
    2) the rabonim – they have their reasons why not to scream about it and kick kids out of school – one maybe because it may do worse. (Btw just because everything can seem good on the outside doesn’t say what’s doing in the inside(
    3) the people – we have to see good in every Jew, the only reason hashem allows one to see bad is 1) to rebuke him directly – not to make fun of him or her on the internet 2) is bacause seeing bad in another in a mirror, it’s really refecting oneself, thru fixing oneself, it will help the other too

    #2267929
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Food for thought about tznius in chabad: 1) who exactly are you criticising? The fact that we don’t have a Rebbe cuz he would fix it, well in chabad we don’t tell the Rebbe what to do, it’s the other way around, this the obviously the kavanah (as hinted in the last maamarim and sichos)“

    And this is why it’s a shame you don’t have a live rebbe because he’s not around to tell you what to do so your chassidus can’t fix it because he didn’t tell you to

    על אלה אנחנו בוכי׳

    #2267931
    yankel berel
    Participant

    Hi
    What happened to my post ?
    Did it get stuck somewhere ?

    no posts waiting here from you

    #2267972
    ARSo
    Participant

    Menachem: ARSo, I’m very curious. How exactly does this play out?
    Like you’re on the subway or in shul or walking down the street, and a Lubavitcher bochur/yungerman/woman/child approaches you, strikes up conversation, and says: “By the way, I assume you know that the Lubavitcher Rebbe is Moshiach, because the Rambam says….”
    Is that what happens?

    That is one way it happens, although they don’t quote the Rambam. Another is when I pass a tefillin booth or similar, and the Lubavicher manning it apparently wants to make an impression on the people with him, so he calls out to me – an obviously chassidic non-Lubavitch type – and makes a comment ‘demonstrating’ how he and his cohorts are better than us lesser Yidden.

    I have NEVER been the one to start the ‘altercation’.

    #2267973
    ARSo
    Participant

    Haleivi: As a Chosid, you’ve definitely dealt with Bechinos and Inyan of. You must be aware of the many levels of Nevua and Ruch Hakodesh.

    Possibly out of pure ignorance, but I am unaware that there is a level of nevuah where someone who doesn’t obey the navi is not chayav misah bidei Shomayim. I’m happy to have my ignorance shown and the be corrected.

    #2267974
    ARSo
    Participant

    sechel: everyone always yeared for moshiach the way chabad does, thats why when chabad started saying “we want moshiach now” a litvish gadol said its kefira because it says im yismamea chake lo.

    You’re a bit unclear here, but I think I know what you mean. Were you around when the “we want Mashiach now” chant started? I was, and I remember the case you’re talking about, although I don’t remember the litvishe gadol saying it, I just remember the LR talking against the complaint.

    As far as I understood then, the Litvak’s complaint was not that people expressed a yearning for Mashiach. Rather, it was the terminology which seemed (to him and to others) that they were demanding Mashiach. Which is indeed the way the LR encouraged it.

    #2267976
    ARSo
    Participant

    Menachem, returning to your question as to when I am usually accosted by Lubavich missionizing Mashiach and the like, I forgot very surprisingly (!) to mention the most common situation.

    When I am at a Lubavich simcha – as you know I have a number of family members and acquaintances who are Lubavichers – and am sitting at a table where I am the lone non-conformist. A glass or two (or three or four…) of alcohol usually makes the imbiber feel that it is up to him to convert the infidel, and I am harrangued by him, often with the encouragement of some of the others, to show me how my chassidus is wrong, and how Lubavich has the only true path. He has the Nassi Hador, the Navi and the Mashiach, while all I have is a belief in nigleh and a stress on tznius. (Please note, that in most instances the imbiber had very little knowledge of nigleh, and his risque comments show he has no inkling at all of tznius.)

    Now I am not saying it happens all the time, but I am saying that that is the most common situation when it happens. And it does indeed happen.

    #2267977
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: They were called tznuim because they were tznius when only Hashem was around…

    I don’t think so. That would imply that all the other gedolei olam were only tznius when they were in company, and that is being motzi shem ra on all of them. I believe Shaul and Kimchis were singled out because they went above the letter of the law.

    #2267987
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @CS
    You and the other habad apologists just don’t get it.
    They do not understand what is bothering the rest of us.
    They seem to condescendingly portray it as some sort of mixture of hate/childish/ignorance, which when will be infused with the required love ,maturity and knowledge , will automatically disappear.

    But it obviously doesn’t disappear.
    Not because of hate , but because of the insufficiency of the given answers.
    Hence the continuous questioning on habad.

    We cannot settle this issue , nor have a serious dialogue before the habad side will have a mature appreciation of the points put to them, and subsequently tries to deal with them begovah enayim [as they say in ivrit]

    #2267975
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS, you’re beautiful explanation of the ‘value’ of the shortcomings in Lubavich, doesn’t really hold water.

    Just as a parent’s primary job is to instruct – yes, even dictate – to a child the way to behave, and a rabbi’s job is to instruct his community how to behave, a Rebbe’s job is to instruct and dictate to his chassidim. Allowing each one to move along at their own pace is great, as long as it does not affect others, and a lack of tznius – both in dress and in mixing of the genders – affects everyone in the community.

    Furthermore, you can’t say that your rebbe didn’t attempt to ‘dictate’ to others, as there are numerous accounts of him meeting other rebbes and telling them that they should instruct their chassidim to learn chassidus, and to publish various works of chassidus – something that was against those rebbes’ mesorah.

    #2268192
    sechel83
    Participant

    Tznius: would having a live Rebbe fix the issue? You guys have so many compliments on our Rebbe, now you say the issue is we don’t have a live Rebbe?!
    1) this is completely lashon hara as mentioned b4 lashon hara is worse than az giloy arroyos and shfichas Domim together.
    2) to be milamed zchus. About 90% of chabad today (probably even more) was not chabad 100 yrs ago. So some how the way the rabonim in chabad teach and lead, it brings people to be more shomer Torah and Mitzvos even though they may rely on more lenient views in tznius (or some not keep any opinion but at least they are shomer shabbos etc, instead of being not shomer tznius AND going totally otd and sending their kids to public schools etc)
    3) I personally don’t see a bigger issue in tznius in chabad then anywhere else. I try to watch where I look. It’s very hard to notice that a person is religious and not dressing tznius without really starring at them.
    Also this idea that tznius effects the whole community that’s rediculos! Do you have a cleaning lady? Do you make sure she dresses tzniusdik – skirt, covers her hair. Also mail women, employees in the kosher stores, no one has an issue!!!!

    #2268193
    sechel83
    Participant

    @Arso demanding moshiach – like we’re going to hashem and threatening him? Like the dor haflaga that’s the accusation? I don’t see how that even makes sense.
    Basically everything chabad does, first is criticized, a few decades later is copied, and a little later others claim they started it. Not like I care or anyone in chabad cares, as long as everyone catches on is fine.

    #2268196
    sechel83
    Participant

    Why does chabad focus on moshiach more than anyone else?
    Very simple, the alter Rebbe says in Tanya that moshiach is tachlis hakavanah of Brias haolem it’s from a medrash,
    Most other Jews stress on gan Eden being the tachlis (which also has makoros in Gemara, and the rambam writes this also that after texhiyas hamasim at a later stage there will be neshamos without bodies – gan Eden.)
    While the rambam says moshiach and techiyas hamasim are from the 13 ikrim, it’s a question why if it’s not the tachlis, there are answers, and the chsam sofer says that it’s not an ikar, one must believe because it says in Torah.
    Since chabad goes with the medrash and the ramban that moshiach is the tachlis (see why in the sichos) that’s why it’s a bigger focus in chabad.

    #2268215
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Sechel…why do i so often begin my posts in response to Lubavitchers with the words “where do i begin.” There’s just layers and layers of… I’m not sure what it is. You can call it klipos.

    First, even if it were common to see very untzius cleaning women and employees, that is still the “outside.” They are goytas. They’re not in the community. No frum jew would see them and have a minimized view of tznius. They might have shmiras aynayim issues, but that’s a separate issue.

    The reality is that yeshivishe homes are, in fact, makpid that the help wears some sort of clothing, without giluy erva and the way they dress in the street. Most frum restaurants are the same. I’ve never seen a frum restaurant with women in states of undress.

    So the presumption is wrong on two levels; factually, and in theory.

    On to reality – having members of a Jewish community who are “frum” and are considered fully integrated without mitzvah observance weakens the mitzvos that they are not keeping in the eyes of those around them. That’s how lashon hora becomes acceptable. And that’s how boys end up falling away from learning, while girls gravitate away from tznius when their neighbors do not keep hilchos tznius.

    This is why the frum community of crown heights has unique problems in this regard. Because they tolerate half baked BTs and gerim who don’t keep halacha, it has a trickle down effect on the mainstream.

    One should not feel that they are frum if they abandon mitzvos, even one of them. You can show love to distant, sinful jews – whether they’re tinknos shenishbu or not – without bringing the mess into klal yisroel.

    #2268231
    sechel83
    Participant

    In other words you’re saying that you “feel” it’s worse. Al pi Torah for you vlo sasuru there is no difference,
    Yes most frum homes and stores to cover themselves but the employees where pants, don’t cover hair which is an erva .
    Yes we are proud to accept baalai teshuvah who don’t yet keep every chumra or even halacha. Every mitzvah is a yichud nitzchi with hashem, doesn’t make a difference what the person did or will do later. If a person is 24/7 butal to Hashem – doing Mitzvos, learning Torah, his business Al pi Torah, taking care of himself and family lishem shamayim, and bchol drochecha daehu, he is a complete merkovah to Hashem, if not then at the times he’s not, he’s not. (Tanya perek 6-7, 22-23, 34) I don’t know what’s the makor of the word frum – especially the way people use it today like Talking lashon hara is still considered frum, but dressing not tznius is not frum.
    And I made much more points.

    #2268248
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: With my daughter, I agreed that the woman who visited was not dressed up to par, for the sake of clarity, but then taught her how to view the positive. This is how we were taught and how we uplift and are uplifted. That’s how lubavitch can hold any kind of person under its umbrella.

    Very nice… in theory. But in practice what it often leads to is that the frum kid sees the other non-tznius person as ok overall, because she has been told what a baalas chesed she is, and she tends to downgrade the importance of tznius.

    I’m not saying this for the sake of being argumentative. I have seen many Lubavicher and non-Lubavicher kids go off because of this type of thing: “Yes, it’s wrong that he doesn’t wear a yarmuke, but look at how he supports so many tzedoko organizations,” and the like. The kid picks up that he can trade one for the other.

    IMHO (I know. You don’t think I’m humble at all. True. But my opnion is.) the way to keep the kid aligned is to say something like, “It’s great that that woman does so much chesed, but unfortunately it’s really terrible that she is not tzniusdik. What a pity. Her chesed would be worth so much more.”

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