Clarification to mod and DaMoshe

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  • #2266374
    sechel83
    Participant

    @yankel berel. we cant argue about history but see the book מבוא לחסידות ולדרכה של חב”ד – הלל צייטלין, he writes about chassidim saying there rebbe was moshiach as i wrote. he passed away in 1942. he wrote his articles and books before that obviously.
    in sefer קול התור written by a talmid of the vilna gaon – rav hillel rivlin – he writes about the gra gave him tefillos to daven that he – the vilna gaon – be revealed as moshiach.
    so apperently it was done by litvaks and chassidim. you say it was not – bring proof!
    “chabads propoganda machine the past 50 yrs” better than the info you get from your classmates and newspapers the past 30 yrs. (or the the history books written the past 10 or 20 yrs)
    in the above sefer of rav hillel zaltzman he also writes about the attacks of misnagdim – in the time of the alter rebbe – baal hatanya that chassidim were holding to highly of him, accusing chassidim as saying he’s g-d ch”v. sold old stuff as today, nothing new. these articles are from the 1930s.

    #2266434
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    Sechel, are you aware that R’ Moshe Sternbuch has said that Kol Hator is a fraud, and was not actually written by the Gra?

    #2266446
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    It’s not jusr rav moshe shternbuch, it’s the prevailing opinion of gra-niks across the board.

    #2266451
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    They said their rebbe was moshiach after he died?

    In the words of qwerty (where has he gone?)

    Checkmate

    #2266485
    sechel83
    Participant

    “are you aware that R’ Moshe Sternbuch has said that Kol Hator is a fraud, and was not actually written by the Gra?”
    so i should beleive something you “heard” that rav shternbach “said” over a printed sefer that was around for over 60 yrs.
    what about מבוא לחסידות ולדרכה של חב”ד around for over 80 yrs?
    youre trying to accuse chabad of something they are doing as wrong and kfira, when we see in gemara (at least according to the simple meaning and many rishonim) it was done. now i brought you more evidance it was done. all you have to reply is rav shterbach said. 1) i dont beleive he said that just because you said so 2) he’s one person he cant create history.
    so lets get this clear, i have a gemara, and printed books that it was done, you have “a shmua” that it was never done which still doesnt make it wrong of kefira.
    similar to all the other arguments that chabad has evidence – documents, pictures, signed letters (menachem mashiv nafshi which i doubt you ever even bothered looking at) and you just have “i heard, i heard, i heard”!
    if you want to argue about history, the only way is with printed and recorded evidence. other then that, people lived in many dif. communities and there is no way of knowing who held of who, and who considered who a gadol or not, besides from listening to the baalai lashon hara. which is an isur, (which answers your complaint about chabad propaganda even according to you that its not true, half truths? you want chabad to spread lashon hara, sinas chinam etc, aderaba, be like the students of aharon

    #2266487
    sechel83
    Participant

    edited 


    @coffee
    addict reb nochum of tzenobel held the baal shem was moshiach after his passing, just becaseu it wasnt done before doesnt mean its against mesorah, what will you say when moshiach comes? against the mesorah, he didnt come for the past 2000 yrs. it was never a sugya, people didnt koch in it cuz it wasn’t relevant, (look it the shiurim seforim of sanhedrin, most skipped all the sugyos (r shmuel rosovski i.e.)

    using the internet is against mesorah. driving a car is also. gitten is also much more commen today. kolel also is against mesorah!

    #2266491
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Sechel…where to begin…

    Rav shternbuch, aside from being an einikel of the gaon, is considered one of the world’s foremost authorities on the gra. He wrote teshuvos about the kol hator, as it was being used by zionists to spread their nationalist stuff. he proved that it was a forgery.

    Next, most later achronim on shas skip almost all aggadeta; nothing specific to that gemara in Sanhedrin. The maharsha and maharal write on agadeta a lot on the daf, and there are many achronim who write on it in derashls(like yaaros dvash), but if you open a keren orah, aruch laner, etc…they skip the agadeta, as do almost all shiurim of roshei yeshiva.

    #2266495
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @sechel
    NO ONE .
    Not now AND not then ,
    had a well organized propaganda machine, brainwashing naive people i.e. baalei tshuva and the innocent little kids born to habad parents and the rest of klal yisrael that one should “look for mashiach candidates’ and then ,’promote him’, Coca-Cola like.

    NO ONE>

    This a total new thing . A first.
    .
    I [and neither do you, nor anyone else alive now] don’t know in what context and when R’N miTzernobel said what he said as a onetime utterance [if he said it at all].
    I am not convinced that he said it.
    Be that as it may, the FACT IS , and remains , that neither in Tshernobil now , nor in Tshernobil at any time , nor in any of the Courts who are mityahes to R’N, is/was there anything even remotely resembling the stupid M frenzy prevalent in habad nowadays.

    THIS IS A DEFINITE NEW PHENOMENON.

    Which warrants investigation. Which is duly happening on these pages – and elsewhere.

    And which is legitimate and even called for.
    And which is definitely not a sign of ‘hate’.

    We SHOULD investigate anything against the Mesorah.
    Any movement and new idea.
    Investigate its claims , its origins , its repercussions and its aims.

    The Real Mashiach is obviously part of the Mesorah.
    But habads new hidushim are not.

    #2266496
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @ sechel
    For many decades habad itself was DENYING that they secretly want to promote their leader as M .

    Why were they not saying what you are so confidently proclaiming on these pages ?

    This nothing new . Rizhin . Tshernobil. Habad themselves .The Gra. etc. etc

    Why not ?

    The simple answer – they knew that these type of arguments are only going to provoke ridicule and laughter.

    No Hug, hasidut , yeshiva / community EVER , promoted a M like habad does now.
    .
    Which warrants investigation.

    #2266497
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @sechel

    And when the REAL Mashiach will come there will be NO NEED of promotion.
    He will be accepted by Klal Yisrael.
    HKBH will affect any promotion needed.
    It says nowhere, and is against our mesorah , for us to have to ‘promote’ Mashiach.
    His actions and his essence will be so convincing, that NO promotion will be needed.

    Promotion is sign of weakness, not of strength …..

    #2266524
    ARSo
    Participant

    What I don’t like about this thread is that Lubavichers have succeeded in moving the playing field and making us focus only on whether a dead person can be Mashiach. The implication being that if we were to agree that Mashiach can come from the dead, we would all be OK with the LR being a candidate.

    Well I would not be OK with it. As I have written in the past, the LR does not qualify on any count. Furthermore, with a very large majority of yir’ei Shomayim not considering the LR a tzaddik yesod olam, he automatically doesn’t qualify.

    #2266523
    ARSo
    Participant

    sechel re Mashiach being from the dead: we see in gemara (at least according to the simple meaning and many rishonim) it was done

    How many times do we have to go through this? The “simple meaning” is that they were telling us the name of Mashiach, whoever it will be or was. Not that they claimed their Rebbes were Mashiach. Note, the gemoro asks מה שמו – what is his name – not מאן הוא משיח – who is Mashiach. As I wrote, they may possibly have meant that their Rebbes were Mashiach (probably while they were alive), but that is NOT the simple pshat.

    Furthermore, I have searched and have not been able to find ANY Rishon other than Rashi on this piece of gemoro. So please name the “many rishonim” you are referring to.

    #2266564
    ARSo
    Participant

    Where is CS? I can think of a few options:

    1. Not feeling well c”v or some other problem not giving her the time to reply.
    2. Looking for a way out of admitting that Habadpedia falsified and misinterpreted quotes to push their own agenda.
    3. Avoiding the issue because she knows that Habadpedia is lying, and (being a Lubavicher) she can’t admit that a quasi-official Lubavich website would lie.
    4. Being totally stunned into realizing that she has been brainwashed all these years into believing anything that has been quoted.

    I certainly hope it’s not no. 1, and I would really like it to be no. 4, but I doubt it. At any rate, I would really like to hear what she has to say about it.

    Sechel, I know you didn’t bring it up, but perhaps you can offer your opinion on the Habadpedia footnote.

    #2266593
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    sechel, it’s not just my word that R’ Sternbuch said this. He first published a pamphlet about it, about a year after the book was published in Israel (1968), and later wrote about it in his sefer, Teshuvos v’Hanhagos: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20027&pgnum=414&hilite=

    #2266633
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “@coffee addict reb nochum of tzenobel held the baal shem was moshiach after his passing, just becaseu it wasnt done before doesnt mean its against mesorah, what will you say when moshiach comes? against the mesorah, he didnt come for the past 2000 yrs.“

    I’m going to say it for the umpteenth time

    The notzrim have the same claim

    Regarding your first claim of R Nochum (never heard of him until you said)

    So you’re arguing with him? Make the besht your moshiach! (Obviously if r nachum can say it you can take him on too! As to the generation part he’s probably still alive as you say your rebbe is!

    #2266745
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @sechel

    Notsrim USE habad’s meshigaas for their own purposes.

    They claim
    1] If you believe your leader is M , why cant you believe ours is
    2] If your leader is atsmut melubash beguf, then why cant you believe the same for ours
    3] if your leader doesn’t have to implement the promises of the nevi’im to be counted as M , then why do you expect it from our leader
    4] If your leader is afforded the privilege of a second coming, then why s our leader not privileged of the same

    What are you going to answer ?
    That their leader forsook the the torah ?
    Not true. All available evidence says that he kept the torah.
    it was his talmidim who forsook the torah

    #2266710
    sechel83
    Participant

    @ aviara and yankel berel: you didnt reply anything logival arguments or proofs just like i said “i heard, against mesorah”
    its impossible for someone living in lakewood to know whats going on in yerushaliim unless its from the media, who can make up whatever they want, or by hearing from others – good stuff, great, if its not rechilus. negitive stuff is called lashon hara.
    how do you know when moshiach will come he will be automaticlly accepted by everyone? unlike moshe rabeinu who was not – took time. the rambam writes the oppisite.
    in general you guys have a major misconception on chabad. as if all we do is promote the rebbe.
    chabads actions are very similar to most jews, we keep sh”u (obviously you’ll attack us for shalosh seudos, and i can attack you back for getting married past 20, or shaving), we learn in yeshiva etc. some things we do dif. we learn chassidus, kiruv, focus on davening, have a different way of learning than litvaks. etc

    #2266751
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @sechel
    What’s not logical about mentioning notsrims use of habad activities ?
    What’s not logical about saying that habads ‘coca cola promotion of’ and ‘looking for candidates’ for M, is totally new and has no precedent anywhere in Jewish history?
    What’s not logical about saying that the more you need to promote something , the more obvious its weakness is ?

    We never claimed all you do is promotion of your rebbe.
    We know you generally aim to keep sh’o.
    That was never the issue.

    The issue is what you BELIEVE IN , and what you PROMOTE.

    #2266754
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @sechel
    HKBH ‘promoted’ Moshe R .
    Through the nissim He made thru Moshe.
    Not the yidden promoted him.
    It took time , but it succeeded – the yidden left mitsrayim in his lifetime.

    Your leader had his time.
    He used it, but he did NOT succeed .
    We are still here – in Galut.
    It’s pure folly to fight against reality.

    #2266822
    yankel berel
    Participant

    It’s eerily quiet ….

    #2266841
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @sechel
    rambam does not write the opposite.

    #2266847
    yankel berel
    Participant

    Hello everyone
    Shtika kehoda’a ?

    #2266896
    CS
    Participant

    Yb:

    “ THIS WHOLE IDEA IS TOTALLY ABSENT IN KLAL YISRAEL > SAVE FOR ONE GROUP…….”

    I hear your point. Like I said, looking for a candidate I think only comes from enhanced awareness and thirsting for geula. Its not like there is a specific Torah based mesora (some minhagim justify why Minhag is the same letters as gehennom, while others we would be moser Nefesh for), that we should NOT look for candidates, unless you know otherwise. As well really are, according to Gedolei Yisrael of all streams, afaik, on the cusp of geula, this to me would seem to be the normal reaction of those tapped in to the mindset, which the Rebbe worked very hard to instill in us (and I’m not talking about the Rebbe as Moshiach here, just general thirsting and excitement for geula. Which itself brings it closer.)

    #2266910
    CS
    Participant

    Yb,

    “ You are the only group who imposes YOUR leader as navi, HALACHICALLY OBLIGATING , US [on the pain of mita byedei shamayim] to obey his directives.”

    Never heard of this. To the best of my limited knowledge this would only be applicable if a big body of rabbis (Sanhedrin?) would pasken that this is the case. There’s no threat here, only positive motivation.

    “You are the only group who says that YOUR leader is greater than Moshe Our Teacher [who spoke with God peh el peh]”

    No, the only thing I’ve learned in this regard is that we can appreciate Moshe s greatness, through seeing what his extension is via our Rebbe. So, IT could be my appreciation of my Rebbe is greater than another Jews appreciation of Moshe.

    Now obviously if the Rebbe does turn out to be Moshiach, as in builds the Beis HaMikdash, defeats our enemies etc, as per the Rambam regarding Moshiach Vadai, he will in many aspects be much greater than Moshe, as everyone, from Avraham Avinu down, will learn from Moshiach after they have techias hameisim. Moshiachs Neshama is the only one to derive from Adam Kadmon, higher than Atzilus.

    The question would then be if The Rebbe was granted this Neshama already by his initial revelation. I suspect not, as this whole post Gimmel Tammuz period proves. My sense is that this Neshama will shine so great that there will be no questions about who he is. And we have this time to prepare. But that’s the only place where that would come in. And Moshe still had higher Nevuah than Moshiach will have, right?

    #2266911
    CS
    Participant

    Yb

    “ Clue for some evidence – this looking for candidates policy – does it happen to overlap with those who happen to promote a specific candidate ?

    Lubavitch in general is not obsessed with the idea that the Rebbe is Moshiach- were lucky if you learn it in school. It’s Moshiach and geula in general and this is one little detail that makes it more real for many. Personally, I’m always looking out for Moshiach/ geula news, whether it’s that I just found my first young 100 year old (Walter Bingham), the war and arousal as a potential great shofar, and of course, if there’s news of a person who fits the candidate criteria, I’m all ears to find out more (obviously referring to not lubavitch here)…

    #2266916
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ (If I didn’t believe that CS is an honest, but misguided, woman, I would suspect that she wrote so much just to shut me up. But I don’t think she did.) ”

    Appreciated, just was responding to the posts I missed that week:)

    “ Perhaps you would care to explain how a “child can have a proper chinuch” if he has an unfiltered smartphone. Could you be mechanech a child while he is in a church praying to osoi ho’ish?”

    Giving a child a smart phone that isn’t filtered or supervised is like giving him a gun. We treat this issue very seriously but every family ultimately makes their choices. I have a low level filter on my phone (otherwise I couldn’t do what I needed to), but my kids only get my phone for Tzivos Hashem missions (supervised), or to play music from Torah box when it’s locked. I am looking to upgrade my filters though, and we have an appointment with tag. I have a friend who has chosen not to have a smartphone or WhatsApp at all, which is rare with the younger generation (more common with those older.) but yes, of course a smart phone is dangerous, and we need to be aware and protect.

    I do think it’s different than tv, because tv is only for entertainment purposes and there’s really no justification for it. Whereas a smartphone is very utilitarian, and there are many ways to help oneself keep it to that. Like focus mode. Also, I generally stay away from you tube and Spotify (except ad free podcasts) due to ads, but now I’ve discovered 613tube so I can gain from you tube without the garbage. I’ve chosen chrome over other browsers for my Internet on my laptop, so I have a clean page to work with. Etc etc. But this is all my personal choice, and the Rebbetzin of my community and I were just discussing today how to create awareness and education in the general community and high school girls, because, as she said, it’s not enough that ani es nafshi hitzalti.

    This is a relatively new thing, and now the yeshivos are educating about it (for later on), and people are learning and discovering for themselves.

    #2266917
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ Not coming from Russian stock I can’t argue with that, but from what I’ve heard Karlin and Litvishe will indeed argue.”

    There’s really nothing to argue about. Denying this while the adults who learned/ taught underground is tantamount to Holocaust denial while there’s still survivors. Unless there’s something I don’t know but this is history. If you have names of networks- the people involved, which chasidus they belonged to, and which places they operated, please do post. I know of one non lubavitch teacher who taught within the Lubavitcher network.

    Rabbi yoseph Zaltzman of Toronto once went to a wedding where he was told that there was a lady from Russia who knew of others operating there. He went to her and asked her details, she told him it was the Zekainim of the city. He asked who these zekainim were and she had to admit they were lubavitch but the others in her community preferred when she called them zekainim…

    #2267089
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: There’s really nothing to argue about. Denying this while the adults who learned/ taught underground is tantamount to Holocaust denial while there’s still survivors.

    I didn’t deny that Lubavich had the major share of underground limud Torah in Russia. Rather, I was arguing that they weren’t the only ones.

    #2267116
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Lubavitch in general is not obsessed with the idea that the Rebbe is Moshiach- were lucky if you learn it in school.“

    יחי אדוננו מורינו ורבינו מלך משיח לעולם ועד printed on everything from yarmulkes to booklets printed from 770 to any sign you see in ארץ ישראל with the rebbes image

    You can’t be serious

    #2267198
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    Avoiding the issue because she knows that Habadpedia is lying, and (being a Lubavicher) she can’t admit that a quasi-official Lubavich website would lie.

    Just gonna jump in quickly to clear up some completely misconstrued facts:

    Chabadpedia is in no way a quasi-official Lubavitch website. It is FULL of mistakes and inaccuracies.
    It has the same level of credibility as ANY wikipedia page.

    Arso, if you want, YOU YOURSELF can write things on chabadpedia and you will not be stopped! I have corrected mistakes every now and then and no qualifications were needed. I just pressed “edit” and made the changes.

    [I wasn’t following the conversation so I have no idea which Chabadpedia page you’re referring to, but I just wanted to put the reality out there]

    #2267200
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    “Lubavitch in general is not obsessed with the idea that the Rebbe is Moshiach- were lucky if you learn it in school.“

    יחי אדוננו מורינו ורבינו מלך משיח לעולם ועד printed on everything from yarmulkes to booklets printed from 770 to any sign you see in ארץ ישראל with the rebbes image

    You can’t be serious

    By “Lubavitch in general”, CS probably meant the half/third of Lubavitch that isn’t meshichist (which does not mean they don’t believe the Rebbe is Moshiach, it means that they’re not obsessed with the idea). If anyone thinks that majority of Lubavitchers wear yechi yarmulkes or majority of Chabad kovtzim say yechi on them – they are plain ignorant.

    #2267202
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @CS

    @arso

    Any discussion re the merit of habad in underground learning in Russia and all other good things they do or did , are irrelevant , at least in my opinion.
    The discussion to be had , is about habad introduced novelties.

    Even if ,in the past all yiddishkeit would be due to habad, nevertheless the habad novelties should be dispassionately discussed and carefully analyzed.
    Habad of the past should have no bearing whatsoever on habad in the present/future.
    The same , regarding any habad positives . They should have no bearing on the habad novelties.

    Remember – we are NOT in the business of JUDGING the invidual habad people , nor the total balance of the habad movement as a whole.
    We are not – Simply because we are not qualified.

    What we should be doing, is to investigate those specific issues within habad which have crept up in the last 60 – 70 years.
    Investigate them thoroughly, without fear or favor.
    An Evidence based investigation ,conducted with common sense, against the backdrop of klal yisraels timeless and collective mesorah.
    That , in my mind at least , is the real purpose of this thread.

    Which, again, has NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER with what is sometimes [defensively] called “hate”.

    #2267206
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Menachem, that’s true, but what’s on there might serve as a bellwether for the community s attitudes to a certain extent – specifically because it can ve edited by anyone, so whatever remains posted reflects the chabad online consensus…again, to a certain degree.

    #2267253
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “CS probably meant the half/third of Lubavitch that isn’t meshichist (which does not mean they don’t believe the Rebbe is Moshiach, it means that they’re not obsessed with the idea). If anyone thinks that majority of Lubavitchers wear yechi yarmulkes or majority of Chabad kovtzim say yechi on them – they are plain ignorant.“

    Menachem,

    A third is a minority which means the majority are

    Secondly the kovetz I saw was from Lubavitch headquarters

    #2267270
    Menachem Shmei
    Participant

    A third is a minority which means the majority are

    I meant to write “half/two thirds of Lubavitch”.

    Secondly the kovetz I saw was from Lubavitch headquarters

    Ha, someone wrote Lubavitch headquarters on their kovetz! Again, complete ignorance about regular life in Lubavitch.

    P.S. I am am NOT saying: (1) that there aren’t thousands of Lubavitchers with yechi yarmulkes, etc. (2) that majority of Lubavitchers don’t believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
    I AM saying: The statement that “Chabad in general is not obsessed with the Rebbe being Moshiach” is not wrong at all.

    #2267280
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @menachem
    Not wearing a yehi yarmulke does not mean ‘not obsessed’.
    If you believe – as any rank-and-file L does – that their rebbi is M, then they SHOULD be obsessed by it.

    Maybe in a quieter way.
    Maybe they balance their ‘obsession’ with the so called ‘realities’ perceived by the non habad people around them.
    That might be a reason not to wear yehi apparel.

    But deep down, on the inside, are they not obsessed?
    Think about it. This not just some argument about whose rebbi is bigger compared to someone else’s.
    This is literally earth-shattering news.

    M started the ge’oula.
    We are on a cosmic intersection.
    If you really believe it, it would be extremely hard NOT to be obsessed.
    That’s only natural.

    And in my humble view , having read and followed their rebbi’s pronouncements and sichot on these issues, that was indeed the clear goal of their rebbi.
    In my opinion, there is nothing to be embarrassed of.
    Isn’t it natural for hasidim to embody their leaders’ goals ?
    There is no reason to deny it.

    So , I would venture to say
    – the MAJORITY OF HABAD DEFINITELY IS OBSESSED THAT THEIR REBBI IS M.

    #2267281
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @CS
    “ THIS WHOLE IDEA IS TOTALLY ABSENT IN KLAL YISRAEL > SAVE FOR ONE GROUP…….”
    [yb]
    —-
    I hear your point. Like I said, looking for a candidate I think only comes from enhanced awareness and thirsting for geula.
    [CS]
    —–
    If it “only comes from enhanced awareness and thirsting for geula”. like you claim , then why did no group in Jewish history ever adopt a ‘lets look for mashiach policy ?

    Was there no group of people thirsting for geula like you, in the whole 1900 plus years since the Hurban ?

    Would you feel comfortable to answer ‘yes’ to the above question ?

    #2267282
    yankel berel
    Participant

    @CS
    “ You are the only group who imposes YOUR leader as navi, HALACHICALLY OBLIGATING , US [on the pain of mita byedei shamayim] to obey his directives.”
    [yb]
    ——————————

    Never heard of this. To the best of my limited knowledge this would only be applicable if a big body of rabbis (Sanhedrin?) would pasken that this is the case. There’s no threat here, only positive motivation.
    [CS]
    ————————————————————
    To the best of my limited knowledge, there is no need for a Sanhedrin or any other big body of rabbis to pasken that
    1] going against a navi is mitah biyedei shamayim.
    2] that this person is a navi if he indeed is a navi.

    So , habads claim that their leader is a navi.
    No , have to correct myself here – habads leaders claim that habads leader is a navi , does not need sanhedrin nor any other body to pasken it is so.

    If it is true , and it obviously is, according to habad, the obligation to listen takes effect immediately.
    On all of us.
    Immediately.

    So the question is now,
    Are [new]habad imposing their navi on all the rest of us ????

    #2267302
    ARSo
    Participant

    Menachem, thanks for clearing that up about Chabadpedia, and I fully accept your explanation.

    I just think it would be mentchlich for CS, who cited this Chabadpedia footnote, to admit in this forum that she was mislead.

    #2267303
    ARSo
    Participant

    Menachem: If anyone thinks that majority of Lubavitchers wear yechi yarmulkes or majority of Chabad kovtzim say yechi on them – they are plain ignorant.

    You may be right numerically, but not as far as publicity goes. Wherever you go in Israel you see Yechi signs and stickers, and in the most annoying places. It is also the ones with the Yechi yarmulkes who put out all these crazy videos etc.

    #2267307
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ I know the engaged couple are encouraged to live in different cities, but they so so (the repletion was deliberate) often don’t.”

    Those who care, are in touch with a mashpia about their specific situation, and receive personalized guidelines. I know many who do separate to different cities as a matter of course, including my husband and myself when we were engaged. Those who don’t care have bechira chofshis, and we as a community do what we can to live as a dugma chaya and inspire others, wherever they may be at.

    #2267308
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ I think the reason is twofold:
    1. We can’t be too frum because of the baalei teshuvah,
    2. We don’t want to look as extreme as other chassidim.”

    This is not true. We start tznius at 3 for example, and a Lubavitcher was trying to shop for her daughter in boro park and was surprised at the lack of selection for her three year old. When she asked the shop lady, she was told, “we’re not lubavitch.” We take pride in upholding the top standards in yiddishkeit and valuing hiddur Mitzvah. But of course, everyone is at their own place in this journey- there are many who are careful and enjoy keeping up as much as they can and know, and others who are holding at a different place, but still cherish the mitzvos / standards they do etc.

    We don’t take down our mechitzas at Chabad houses for fear of what the community say, and we don’t lower our personal standards for fear of others.

    “ The problem is that there are many fully-fledged Lubavichers, including shluchim and their families, who have downfalls in these areas. I can overlook what the baalei teshuvah do, but not shluchim and their kids, and there are many who have, shall we say, ‘strayed’ in some important areas.

    In general, it’s the fully-fledged that I am referring to and disappointed in

    I think every community and individual have their areas that can use strengthening, and this is not unique to lubavitch. I have been to both kinds of homes. I haven’t seen bochurim/ girls at the same table, but have seen marriageable age at the same table separated by married couples. Could be these families are operating in guidance I don’t know about. I try to focus on my own decisions:)

    #2267309
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    “ Re women’s tznius. I don’t care what is in the woman’s heart (although we have a rule האדם נפעל כפי פעולותיו, and good actions will bring to good intentions). A woman who is ‘chassidish’ in her heart, and does not ‘fake’, but dresses un-tzniusdik, is being machshil many men daily. A woman who is ‘forced’ into being tznius, is saving men from being nichshal, regardless of her behavior at home.”

    Agreed, however this doesn’t define communal yiras shomayim or even tznius for that matter. Shaul hamelech and kimchis were called tznuim because of what they did in private out of a real sense of tznius- yiras shomayim. Dress is only one factor, an important one, but cannot be used to define the communal level of yiras shomayim when done for external reasons.

    #2267310
    CS
    Participant

    Arso,

    I must protest your general denigration of an entire demographic of baalei teshuva. Baalei teshuva turn their entire lives over for Hashem, sometimes unfortunately against their families will, and have a burning sincerity that guides all they do. As a demographic, they are much more sincere and driven than the ffb population. Many ffb continue whatever they grew up with, at their comfort level, whereas baalei teshuva are willing to go as far as they can to get closer to Hashem.

    Once someone asked the Rebbe of the advisability of admitting their children to our schools, and the Rebbe stopped him with the clear message that these are my children.

    The challenge is that many times they are lacking the support they need to fully integrate into the regular frum standards etc. This is mainly due to the impossibility of the bt schools/ campus shluchim etc keeping up with each alumnus when there are kah so many. So once they’ve learned the basics and left home/ school, they’re pretty much on their own, and it’s up to each one to find their own support which can be challenging when you don’t have family connections and are not familiar with the frum world. Some are a bit clueless as to why certain social norms out standards matter, as there’s only so much they can learn in the time they have in school, and they focus on shabbos/ Kashrus, Chassidus (which continues the flame for the commitment burning) etc.

    Another challenge is that due to their background, it is often hard for bt to reach the level of refinement that ffb hopefully grew up with.

    I’ve heard a lubavitch mashpia speak on this, encouraging bts to move back to where they started off so they can continue their growth there under the shluchim they started off with.

    But there are many baalei teshuva who do fully integrate, and as a demographic, they contribute so much with bringing Yiddishkeit with their fire and sincerity to places not so accessible for ffb Chabad, whether it’s on shlichus (different when you’ve grown up not frum and can fully relate), business, and so many creative forms of business, etc etc.

    There are few ffb who can match baalei teshuva in their sincerity and drive- only those who have similarly worked on themselves in their Avodas Hashem to this degree.

    They add so much to our community, and whereas a lack of something in a bt is usually due to ignorance, or lack of support, ffb children can go the same way without that excuse.

    #2267314
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Ha, someone wrote Lubavitch headquarters on their kovetz! Again, complete ignorance about regular life in Lubavitch.“

    Menachem,

    It was from 770 I saw it a few weeks ago I know it was an official thing but I don’t remember EXACTLY how it looked

    #2267316
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    And if you’re really right that only 1/3-1/2 are promoting it, the the 1/2-2/3 should shut them up (unless they agree to what they others are doing, just they’re too shy (or whatever) to do it too

    Or they are iyov

    #2267358
    ARSo
    Participant

    I just think it would be mentchlich for CS, who cited this Chabadpedia footnote, to admit in this forum that she was mislead.

    CS, now that you’re back posting I was wondering whether you are going to address the above.

    #2267365
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: a Lubavitcher was trying to shop for her daughter in boro park and was surprised at the lack of selection for her three year old. When she asked the shop lady, she was told, “we’re not lubavitch.”

    Another anecdotal proof that shows that Lubavichers are far better than others! Well done! (And don’t worry about the fact that even if the story is true it’s the exception to the rule. Who cares? As long as we can continue claiming that the tznius in Crown Heights is of the highest standard.)

    We take pride in upholding the top standards in yiddishkeit and valuing hiddur Mitzvah.

    …except in internet access for youth, the things bochurim talk about, tznius and the mixing of the genders. (You won’t convince me otherwise because I witness it firsthand numerous times each week. And I’m talking about sons of shluchim, not just BTs.)

    Btw even with all your explaining of the how engaged couples act etc, it’s still well below the tznius level of other chatzeiros. Actually, that makes it sound just something not as “hiddur mitzvah” as us. I had better clarify. It’s called nevalah in other chatzeiros.

    #2267380
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: I think every community and individual have their areas that can use strengthening, and this is not unique to lubavitch. /em>

    That’s like saying that an orthodox community could use strengthening in their Shmiras Shabbos because so many of them use their phones on Shabbos. A community like that is not orthodox! Tznius in Lubavich needs more than just “strengthening”. It is by ALL accounts – and I am including the small number of sane Lubavichers with whom I discuss this type of stuff – atrocious. And the reason – those card-carrying Lubavichers agree – is because the main thing is Mashiach and influencing others. Thereby turning a blind-eye to “our own”.

    I have been to both kinds of homes. I haven’t seen bochurim/ girls at the same table, but have seen marriageable age at the same table separated by married couples. Could be these families are operating in guidance I don’t know about. I try to focus on my own decisions

    You’re right for focusing on your own family. But stop defending the way others are because they “cherish” mitzvos and hiddur mitzvah in their own way. I could handle your posts more if you would come out clearly and say, “They are wrong! I wish they would behave in a more appropriate manner. Furthermore they are giving Lubavich a bad name.” But you can’t say that because everything is so rosey in Lubavich.

    #2267384
    ARSo
    Participant

    CS: Agreed, however this doesn’t define communal yiras shomayim or even tznius for that matter. Shaul hamelech and kimchis were called tznuim because of what they did in private out of a real sense of tznius- yiras shomayim.

    Shaul Hamelech and Kimchis were called tznuim because they went over and above what was required lehalacha.

    Dress is only one factor, an important one, but cannot be used to define the communal level of yiras shomayim when done for external reasons.

    Totally untrue! When a community – say Toldos Aharon in Meah She’arim – is extrememly tzniusdik in dress, it definitely defines the communal level of yir’as Shamayim. Sure there may be individuals who stray in private – we’ve all heard many times the anecdotal stories (which must, of course, be true) told by Lubavichers about Satmar chassidim who do disgusting things when they’re out of Williamsburg – but the public level of tznius definitely shows, and leads to, high levels of yir’as Shamayim.

    A lack of tznius, even if it were only among newcomers to Lubavich (unfortunately that is not the case), leads to a downfall in the entire community. As Chazal say העין רואה והלב חומד….

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