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@yankel berel. we cant argue about history but see the book מבוא לחסידות ולדרכה של חב”ד – הלל צייטלין, he writes about chassidim saying there rebbe was moshiach as i wrote. he passed away in 1942. he wrote his articles and books before that obviously.
in sefer קול התור written by a talmid of the vilna gaon – rav hillel rivlin – he writes about the gra gave him tefillos to daven that he – the vilna gaon – be revealed as moshiach.
so apperently it was done by litvaks and chassidim. you say it was not – bring proof!
“chabads propoganda machine the past 50 yrs” better than the info you get from your classmates and newspapers the past 30 yrs. (or the the history books written the past 10 or 20 yrs)
in the above sefer of rav hillel zaltzman he also writes about the attacks of misnagdim – in the time of the alter rebbe – baal hatanya that chassidim were holding to highly of him, accusing chassidim as saying he’s g-d ch”v. sold old stuff as today, nothing new. these articles are from the 1930s.Sechel, are you aware that R’ Moshe Sternbuch has said that Kol Hator is a fraud, and was not actually written by the Gra?
It’s not jusr rav moshe shternbuch, it’s the prevailing opinion of gra-niks across the board.
They said their rebbe was moshiach after he died?
In the words of qwerty (where has he gone?)
Checkmate
“are you aware that R’ Moshe Sternbuch has said that Kol Hator is a fraud, and was not actually written by the Gra?”
so i should beleive something you “heard” that rav shternbach “said” over a printed sefer that was around for over 60 yrs.
what about מבוא לחסידות ולדרכה של חב”ד around for over 80 yrs?
youre trying to accuse chabad of something they are doing as wrong and kfira, when we see in gemara (at least according to the simple meaning and many rishonim) it was done. now i brought you more evidance it was done. all you have to reply is rav shterbach said. 1) i dont beleive he said that just because you said so 2) he’s one person he cant create history.
so lets get this clear, i have a gemara, and printed books that it was done, you have “a shmua” that it was never done which still doesnt make it wrong of kefira.
similar to all the other arguments that chabad has evidence – documents, pictures, signed letters (menachem mashiv nafshi which i doubt you ever even bothered looking at) and you just have “i heard, i heard, i heard”!
if you want to argue about history, the only way is with printed and recorded evidence. other then that, people lived in many dif. communities and there is no way of knowing who held of who, and who considered who a gadol or not, besides from listening to the baalai lashon hara. which is an isur, (which answers your complaint about chabad propaganda even according to you that its not true, half truths? you want chabad to spread lashon hara, sinas chinam etc, aderaba, be like the students of aharonedited
@coffee addict reb nochum of tzenobel held the baal shem was moshiach after his passing, just becaseu it wasnt done before doesnt mean its against mesorah, what will you say when moshiach comes? against the mesorah, he didnt come for the past 2000 yrs. it was never a sugya, people didnt koch in it cuz it wasn’t relevant, (look it the shiurim seforim of sanhedrin, most skipped all the sugyos (r shmuel rosovski i.e.)using the internet is against mesorah. driving a car is also. gitten is also much more commen today. kolel also is against mesorah!
Sechel…where to begin…
Rav shternbuch, aside from being an einikel of the gaon, is considered one of the world’s foremost authorities on the gra. He wrote teshuvos about the kol hator, as it was being used by zionists to spread their nationalist stuff. he proved that it was a forgery.
Next, most later achronim on shas skip almost all aggadeta; nothing specific to that gemara in Sanhedrin. The maharsha and maharal write on agadeta a lot on the daf, and there are many achronim who write on it in derashls(like yaaros dvash), but if you open a keren orah, aruch laner, etc…they skip the agadeta, as do almost all shiurim of roshei yeshiva.
@sechel
NO ONE .
Not now AND not then ,
had a well organized propaganda machine, brainwashing naive people i.e. baalei tshuva and the innocent little kids born to habad parents and the rest of klal yisrael that one should “look for mashiach candidates’ and then ,’promote him’, Coca-Cola like.NO ONE>
This a total new thing . A first.
.
I [and neither do you, nor anyone else alive now] don’t know in what context and when R’N miTzernobel said what he said as a onetime utterance [if he said it at all].
I am not convinced that he said it.
Be that as it may, the FACT IS , and remains , that neither in Tshernobil now , nor in Tshernobil at any time , nor in any of the Courts who are mityahes to R’N, is/was there anything even remotely resembling the stupid M frenzy prevalent in habad nowadays.THIS IS A DEFINITE NEW PHENOMENON.
Which warrants investigation. Which is duly happening on these pages – and elsewhere.
And which is legitimate and even called for.
And which is definitely not a sign of ‘hate’.We SHOULD investigate anything against the Mesorah.
Any movement and new idea.
Investigate its claims , its origins , its repercussions and its aims.The Real Mashiach is obviously part of the Mesorah.
But habads new hidushim are not.@ sechel
For many decades habad itself was DENYING that they secretly want to promote their leader as M .Why were they not saying what you are so confidently proclaiming on these pages ?
This nothing new . Rizhin . Tshernobil. Habad themselves .The Gra. etc. etc
Why not ?
The simple answer – they knew that these type of arguments are only going to provoke ridicule and laughter.
No Hug, hasidut , yeshiva / community EVER , promoted a M like habad does now.
.
Which warrants investigation.And when the REAL Mashiach will come there will be NO NEED of promotion.
He will be accepted by Klal Yisrael.
HKBH will affect any promotion needed.
It says nowhere, and is against our mesorah , for us to have to ‘promote’ Mashiach.
His actions and his essence will be so convincing, that NO promotion will be needed.Promotion is sign of weakness, not of strength …..
What I don’t like about this thread is that Lubavichers have succeeded in moving the playing field and making us focus only on whether a dead person can be Mashiach. The implication being that if we were to agree that Mashiach can come from the dead, we would all be OK with the LR being a candidate.
Well I would not be OK with it. As I have written in the past, the LR does not qualify on any count. Furthermore, with a very large majority of yir’ei Shomayim not considering the LR a tzaddik yesod olam, he automatically doesn’t qualify.
sechel re Mashiach being from the dead: we see in gemara (at least according to the simple meaning and many rishonim) it was done
How many times do we have to go through this? The “simple meaning” is that they were telling us the name of Mashiach, whoever it will be or was. Not that they claimed their Rebbes were Mashiach. Note, the gemoro asks מה שמו – what is his name – not מאן הוא משיח – who is Mashiach. As I wrote, they may possibly have meant that their Rebbes were Mashiach (probably while they were alive), but that is NOT the simple pshat.
Furthermore, I have searched and have not been able to find ANY Rishon other than Rashi on this piece of gemoro. So please name the “many rishonim” you are referring to.
Where is CS? I can think of a few options:
1. Not feeling well c”v or some other problem not giving her the time to reply.
2. Looking for a way out of admitting that Habadpedia falsified and misinterpreted quotes to push their own agenda.
3. Avoiding the issue because she knows that Habadpedia is lying, and (being a Lubavicher) she can’t admit that a quasi-official Lubavich website would lie.
4. Being totally stunned into realizing that she has been brainwashed all these years into believing anything that has been quoted.I certainly hope it’s not no. 1, and I would really like it to be no. 4, but I doubt it. At any rate, I would really like to hear what she has to say about it.
Sechel, I know you didn’t bring it up, but perhaps you can offer your opinion on the Habadpedia footnote.
sechel, it’s not just my word that R’ Sternbuch said this. He first published a pamphlet about it, about a year after the book was published in Israel (1968), and later wrote about it in his sefer, Teshuvos v’Hanhagos: https://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20027&pgnum=414&hilite=
“@coffee addict reb nochum of tzenobel held the baal shem was moshiach after his passing, just becaseu it wasnt done before doesnt mean its against mesorah, what will you say when moshiach comes? against the mesorah, he didnt come for the past 2000 yrs.“
I’m going to say it for the umpteenth time
The notzrim have the same claim
Regarding your first claim of R Nochum (never heard of him until you said)
So you’re arguing with him? Make the besht your moshiach! (Obviously if r nachum can say it you can take him on too! As to the generation part he’s probably still alive as you say your rebbe is!
Notsrim USE habad’s meshigaas for their own purposes.
They claim
1] If you believe your leader is M , why cant you believe ours is
2] If your leader is atsmut melubash beguf, then why cant you believe the same for ours
3] if your leader doesn’t have to implement the promises of the nevi’im to be counted as M , then why do you expect it from our leader
4] If your leader is afforded the privilege of a second coming, then why s our leader not privileged of the sameWhat are you going to answer ?
That their leader forsook the the torah ?
Not true. All available evidence says that he kept the torah.
it was his talmidim who forsook the torah@ aviara and yankel berel: you didnt reply anything logival arguments or proofs just like i said “i heard, against mesorah”
its impossible for someone living in lakewood to know whats going on in yerushaliim unless its from the media, who can make up whatever they want, or by hearing from others – good stuff, great, if its not rechilus. negitive stuff is called lashon hara.
how do you know when moshiach will come he will be automaticlly accepted by everyone? unlike moshe rabeinu who was not – took time. the rambam writes the oppisite.
in general you guys have a major misconception on chabad. as if all we do is promote the rebbe.
chabads actions are very similar to most jews, we keep sh”u (obviously you’ll attack us for shalosh seudos, and i can attack you back for getting married past 20, or shaving), we learn in yeshiva etc. some things we do dif. we learn chassidus, kiruv, focus on davening, have a different way of learning than litvaks. etc@sechel
What’s not logical about mentioning notsrims use of habad activities ?
What’s not logical about saying that habads ‘coca cola promotion of’ and ‘looking for candidates’ for M, is totally new and has no precedent anywhere in Jewish history?
What’s not logical about saying that the more you need to promote something , the more obvious its weakness is ?We never claimed all you do is promotion of your rebbe.
We know you generally aim to keep sh’o.
That was never the issue.The issue is what you BELIEVE IN , and what you PROMOTE.
@sechel
HKBH ‘promoted’ Moshe R .
Through the nissim He made thru Moshe.
Not the yidden promoted him.
It took time , but it succeeded – the yidden left mitsrayim in his lifetime.Your leader had his time.
He used it, but he did NOT succeed .
We are still here – in Galut.
It’s pure folly to fight against reality.It’s eerily quiet ….
@sechel
rambam does not write the opposite.Hello everyone
Shtika kehoda’a ?CS: There’s really nothing to argue about. Denying this while the adults who learned/ taught underground is tantamount to Holocaust denial while there’s still survivors.
I didn’t deny that Lubavich had the major share of underground limud Torah in Russia. Rather, I was arguing that they weren’t the only ones.
“Lubavitch in general is not obsessed with the idea that the Rebbe is Moshiach- were lucky if you learn it in school.“
יחי אדוננו מורינו ורבינו מלך משיח לעולם ועד printed on everything from yarmulkes to booklets printed from 770 to any sign you see in ארץ ישראל with the rebbes image
You can’t be serious
Avoiding the issue because she knows that Habadpedia is lying, and (being a Lubavicher) she can’t admit that a quasi-official Lubavich website would lie.
Just gonna jump in quickly to clear up some completely misconstrued facts:
Chabadpedia is in no way a quasi-official Lubavitch website. It is FULL of mistakes and inaccuracies.
It has the same level of credibility as ANY wikipedia page.Arso, if you want, YOU YOURSELF can write things on chabadpedia and you will not be stopped! I have corrected mistakes every now and then and no qualifications were needed. I just pressed “edit” and made the changes.
[I wasn’t following the conversation so I have no idea which Chabadpedia page you’re referring to, but I just wanted to put the reality out there]
“Lubavitch in general is not obsessed with the idea that the Rebbe is Moshiach- were lucky if you learn it in school.“
יחי אדוננו מורינו ורבינו מלך משיח לעולם ועד printed on everything from yarmulkes to booklets printed from 770 to any sign you see in ארץ ישראל with the rebbes image
You can’t be serious
By “Lubavitch in general”, CS probably meant the half/third of Lubavitch that isn’t meshichist (which does not mean they don’t believe the Rebbe is Moshiach, it means that they’re not obsessed with the idea). If anyone thinks that majority of Lubavitchers wear yechi yarmulkes or majority of Chabad kovtzim say yechi on them – they are plain ignorant.
@CS
@arso
Any discussion re the merit of habad in underground learning in Russia and all other good things they do or did , are irrelevant , at least in my opinion.
The discussion to be had , is about habad introduced novelties.Even if ,in the past all yiddishkeit would be due to habad, nevertheless the habad novelties should be dispassionately discussed and carefully analyzed.
Habad of the past should have no bearing whatsoever on habad in the present/future.
The same , regarding any habad positives . They should have no bearing on the habad novelties.Remember – we are NOT in the business of JUDGING the invidual habad people , nor the total balance of the habad movement as a whole.
We are not – Simply because we are not qualified.What we should be doing, is to investigate those specific issues within habad which have crept up in the last 60 – 70 years.
Investigate them thoroughly, without fear or favor.
An Evidence based investigation ,conducted with common sense, against the backdrop of klal yisraels timeless and collective mesorah.
That , in my mind at least , is the real purpose of this thread.Which, again, has NO CONNECTION WHATSOEVER with what is sometimes [defensively] called “hate”.
Menachem, that’s true, but what’s on there might serve as a bellwether for the community s attitudes to a certain extent – specifically because it can ve edited by anyone, so whatever remains posted reflects the chabad online consensus…again, to a certain degree.
“CS probably meant the half/third of Lubavitch that isn’t meshichist (which does not mean they don’t believe the Rebbe is Moshiach, it means that they’re not obsessed with the idea). If anyone thinks that majority of Lubavitchers wear yechi yarmulkes or majority of Chabad kovtzim say yechi on them – they are plain ignorant.“
Menachem,
A third is a minority which means the majority are
Secondly the kovetz I saw was from Lubavitch headquarters
A third is a minority which means the majority are
I meant to write “half/two thirds of Lubavitch”.
Secondly the kovetz I saw was from Lubavitch headquarters
Ha, someone wrote Lubavitch headquarters on their kovetz! Again, complete ignorance about regular life in Lubavitch.
P.S. I am am NOT saying: (1) that there aren’t thousands of Lubavitchers with yechi yarmulkes, etc. (2) that majority of Lubavitchers don’t believe that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
I AM saying: The statement that “Chabad in general is not obsessed with the Rebbe being Moshiach” is not wrong at all.@menachem
Not wearing a yehi yarmulke does not mean ‘not obsessed’.
If you believe – as any rank-and-file L does – that their rebbi is M, then they SHOULD be obsessed by it.Maybe in a quieter way.
Maybe they balance their ‘obsession’ with the so called ‘realities’ perceived by the non habad people around them.
That might be a reason not to wear yehi apparel.But deep down, on the inside, are they not obsessed?
Think about it. This not just some argument about whose rebbi is bigger compared to someone else’s.
This is literally earth-shattering news.M started the ge’oula.
We are on a cosmic intersection.
If you really believe it, it would be extremely hard NOT to be obsessed.
That’s only natural.And in my humble view , having read and followed their rebbi’s pronouncements and sichot on these issues, that was indeed the clear goal of their rebbi.
In my opinion, there is nothing to be embarrassed of.
Isn’t it natural for hasidim to embody their leaders’ goals ?
There is no reason to deny it.So , I would venture to say
– the MAJORITY OF HABAD DEFINITELY IS OBSESSED THAT THEIR REBBI IS M.@CS
“ THIS WHOLE IDEA IS TOTALLY ABSENT IN KLAL YISRAEL > SAVE FOR ONE GROUP…….”
[yb]
—-
I hear your point. Like I said, looking for a candidate I think only comes from enhanced awareness and thirsting for geula.
[CS]
—–
If it “only comes from enhanced awareness and thirsting for geula”. like you claim , then why did no group in Jewish history ever adopt a ‘lets look for mashiach policy ?Was there no group of people thirsting for geula like you, in the whole 1900 plus years since the Hurban ?
Would you feel comfortable to answer ‘yes’ to the above question ?
@CS
“ You are the only group who imposes YOUR leader as navi, HALACHICALLY OBLIGATING , US [on the pain of mita byedei shamayim] to obey his directives.”
[yb]
——————————Never heard of this. To the best of my limited knowledge this would only be applicable if a big body of rabbis (Sanhedrin?) would pasken that this is the case. There’s no threat here, only positive motivation.
[CS]
————————————————————
To the best of my limited knowledge, there is no need for a Sanhedrin or any other big body of rabbis to pasken that
1] going against a navi is mitah biyedei shamayim.
2] that this person is a navi if he indeed is a navi.So , habads claim that their leader is a navi.
No , have to correct myself here – habads leaders claim that habads leader is a navi , does not need sanhedrin nor any other body to pasken it is so.If it is true , and it obviously is, according to habad, the obligation to listen takes effect immediately.
On all of us.
Immediately.So the question is now,
Are [new]habad imposing their navi on all the rest of us ????Menachem, thanks for clearing that up about Chabadpedia, and I fully accept your explanation.
I just think it would be mentchlich for CS, who cited this Chabadpedia footnote, to admit in this forum that she was mislead.
Menachem: If anyone thinks that majority of Lubavitchers wear yechi yarmulkes or majority of Chabad kovtzim say yechi on them – they are plain ignorant.
You may be right numerically, but not as far as publicity goes. Wherever you go in Israel you see Yechi signs and stickers, and in the most annoying places. It is also the ones with the Yechi yarmulkes who put out all these crazy videos etc.
“Ha, someone wrote Lubavitch headquarters on their kovetz! Again, complete ignorance about regular life in Lubavitch.“
Menachem,
It was from 770 I saw it a few weeks ago I know it was an official thing but I don’t remember EXACTLY how it looked
And if you’re really right that only 1/3-1/2 are promoting it, the the 1/2-2/3 should shut them up (unless they agree to what they others are doing, just they’re too shy (or whatever) to do it too
Or they are iyov
I just think it would be mentchlich for CS, who cited this Chabadpedia footnote, to admit in this forum that she was mislead.
CS, now that you’re back posting I was wondering whether you are going to address the above.
CS: a Lubavitcher was trying to shop for her daughter in boro park and was surprised at the lack of selection for her three year old. When she asked the shop lady, she was told, “we’re not lubavitch.”
Another anecdotal proof that shows that Lubavichers are far better than others! Well done! (And don’t worry about the fact that even if the story is true it’s the exception to the rule. Who cares? As long as we can continue claiming that the tznius in Crown Heights is of the highest standard.)
We take pride in upholding the top standards in yiddishkeit and valuing hiddur Mitzvah.
…except in internet access for youth, the things bochurim talk about, tznius and the mixing of the genders. (You won’t convince me otherwise because I witness it firsthand numerous times each week. And I’m talking about sons of shluchim, not just BTs.)
Btw even with all your explaining of the how engaged couples act etc, it’s still well below the tznius level of other chatzeiros. Actually, that makes it sound just something not as “hiddur mitzvah” as us. I had better clarify. It’s called nevalah in other chatzeiros.
CS: I think every community and individual have their areas that can use strengthening, and this is not unique to lubavitch. /em>
That’s like saying that an orthodox community could use strengthening in their Shmiras Shabbos because so many of them use their phones on Shabbos. A community like that is not orthodox! Tznius in Lubavich needs more than just “strengthening”. It is by ALL accounts – and I am including the small number of sane Lubavichers with whom I discuss this type of stuff – atrocious. And the reason – those card-carrying Lubavichers agree – is because the main thing is Mashiach and influencing others. Thereby turning a blind-eye to “our own”.
I have been to both kinds of homes. I haven’t seen bochurim/ girls at the same table, but have seen marriageable age at the same table separated by married couples. Could be these families are operating in guidance I don’t know about. I try to focus on my own decisions
You’re right for focusing on your own family. But stop defending the way others are because they “cherish” mitzvos and hiddur mitzvah in their own way. I could handle your posts more if you would come out clearly and say, “They are wrong! I wish they would behave in a more appropriate manner. Furthermore they are giving Lubavich a bad name.” But you can’t say that because everything is so rosey in Lubavich.
CS: Agreed, however this doesn’t define communal yiras shomayim or even tznius for that matter. Shaul hamelech and kimchis were called tznuim because of what they did in private out of a real sense of tznius- yiras shomayim.
Shaul Hamelech and Kimchis were called tznuim because they went over and above what was required lehalacha.
Dress is only one factor, an important one, but cannot be used to define the communal level of yiras shomayim when done for external reasons.
Totally untrue! When a community – say Toldos Aharon in Meah She’arim – is extrememly tzniusdik in dress, it definitely defines the communal level of yir’as Shamayim. Sure there may be individuals who stray in private – we’ve all heard many times the anecdotal stories (which must, of course, be true) told by Lubavichers about Satmar chassidim who do disgusting things when they’re out of Williamsburg – but the public level of tznius definitely shows, and leads to, high levels of yir’as Shamayim.
A lack of tznius, even if it were only among newcomers to Lubavich (unfortunately that is not the case), leads to a downfall in the entire community. As Chazal say העין רואה והלב חומד….
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