November 10, 2011 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #600448AnonymousInactive
If parent’s didn’t go to college why should they be convincing kids that’s it’s the best thing for them not to go to college cause they didn’t. It’s impossible to get a job in this society and with formal qaulifications it’s hard enough! I want to study something respectable, but my parent’s attitude doesn’t back me up, in what I want to do with MY life. getting me married off is top priority for them, never mind the fact that once I’m married nomore support, and we’ll have to fend for ourselves and come up with some sort of ‘origional’ parnassa concept. Is there sth that my young eyes don’t understand???? I hate the concept that being a doctor, lawyer or an accountant is looked down upon in the Yeshivish velt! -Where does it say that yiddishkiet is based on struggle???November 10, 2011 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #825673
Have you discussed which college??
If YU/Stern is out Brooklyn and Queens College have large orthodox populations in themNovember 10, 2011 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #825674oomisParticipant
If being a doctor or lawyer is looked down upon in the Yiddishe Velt, then RAMBAM must be a real pariah, and ALL the members of the Sanhedrin, and every DAYAN in a Beis Din, should be censured for serving in the court system.
Having a college degree is no guarantee of a job, but NOT having one is almost CERTAIN to guarantee a much more difficult time in finding and making a decent parnassah today. Even our greatest Rabbanim held jobs in ancient times. R’ Yochanan was a shoemaker. R’Yehuda Hanasi ran businesses. RAMBAM was a doctor, and not even in E”Y. Many of our meforshim were Sofrim, poets, translators, advisors to kings and other heads of state.
In today’s world, we have to ensure that our children are educated, so that they can compete in the world twenty, thirty, forty years down the line. If no one of this generation of young people is earning a living, who will provide for THEIR children? Education at least gives them an edge over the non-educated.Not everyone’s father owns a business for them to fall into.
And college does not in and of itself = OTD. That is just nonsense. There are plenty of VERY frum people male and female who go to college. One simply has to used discretion and seichel when deciding where to go.November 10, 2011 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #825675i love coffeParticipant
IMHO I would not worry what other people think when it comes to the future of your own life and your future family. People might agree that for you going to college is the best thing in the world and people might disagree that going to college is the worst thing you could do. It doesnt matter. When it comes to you having to feed yourself and your family no one is going to hand you a plate of food infront of you. You need to make sure you can do this yourself especially if your parents dont plan on supporting you in the future. So therefore, you need to make sure that you can stand on your own two feet, and going to college is the base for that.
One never knows what is going to happen in the future and if your partner cant bring enough parnassa home for whatever reason, you need to make sure that you and your future partner are going to work as a teem and that you too can go to work with your college education.
I would say that going to college for your first year or two you should attend a Jewsih college. Hopefully this way you can compromise with your parents too. Take their opinion respectfully but also try to explain your point of view and if it doesnt work then you should be able to make your own choice in this matter and decide what is best for you.November 10, 2011 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #825676
First of all, this conversation can go a few different ways based on a few different factors.
First, you dont state if you are male or female.
Second, you dont really give much detail as to why your parents are opposed to the idea.
Third, are they concerned that higher education is going to A: bring down the family name? B: make you unattractive to shadchanim C: fill your head with ideas that will make you want to escape from the community.
Also, you are correct that the “yeshivisha world” does look down on professionals in some cases. But then, when they need a professional, they tend to look for some one heimish. It’s quite a contradiciton, they would never allow their children to be professionals, but when they need one, they prefer one of their own kind.
Dont let this discourage you. Ultimatley it is your life and there are many shining examples of religious doctors,lawyers,accountants,stock brokers, and business owners. Dont let yourself be pushed into a marriage and a lifestyle with a self perpetuating cycle of poverty that seems to be pushed as the only option.November 10, 2011 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #825677BTGuyParticipant
We attached a lot to the idea of “going to college”, and rightfully so. Dorms and campuses are a makom sakana, for sure.
But, college “programs” may be necessary depending on the career someone wishes to obtain, and
rightfully so. If someone is checking eyesight and considering writing a prescription
for glasses, etc., you surely want them trained for many years in an accredited program
before they go into the world charging folks money for their ability to take such responsibility
in the marketplace.
Ironically, there is a strong reluctance to the idea of going to college, and even secular eduaction as
though limud chol is limud treif, yet, when people in our community have professions and are successful, they rightfully receive tremendous respect and honor.
There is a mixed message our kids get in outlook regarding secular studies and it has a negative,
harmful impact on their efforts at basic skill development when they are young, and their ability to
be well prepared for adulthood in the area of parnasa, which is a very important part of Torah.November 10, 2011 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #825678gavra_at_workParticipant
Who cares what others think. You do what you feel is right, Torahdik & Yashar, and if others don’t like it, we will see who is correct after 120.November 10, 2011 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #825679
limud chol is limud treif
Exactly what is “Treif” about Calculus or other advanced Mathematics?November 10, 2011 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #825680EzratHashemMember
BT: I don’t have an opinion about your situation since there are too many unknowns, but a few thoughts: Before a person commits to going to college they should have a realistic idea of what college will demand of them. Doctors/Lawyers spend a minimum of seven years in college before they can actually practice and begin to earn money. A lot of time in the first 4 years is spent learning useless subjects that are required for the degree. If during those seven years your life develops in other ways so that your time is occupied by marriage, job, learning, etc. it may become difficult to keep up with the demands of college. And finally, in listening to some of the debates going on regarding the burden of student loans that many graduates carry, it has been mentioned that today’s marketplace doesn’t necessarily demand a college degree anymore, especially in certain areas. As an example I heard that among some notable college dropouts were Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg.November 10, 2011 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #825681
People tend to only remember RAMBAM for his more extreme/hardline positions and not the fact that he was a student of Aristotle or was a phyiscian.
If the Rambam walked into a shul or yeshiva in this country, he would have no clue as to what we are all about.November 10, 2011 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #825682DoswinMember
“we will see who is correct after 120.”
You probably shouldn’t throw the dice and hope to find out if you were right or not after 120.November 10, 2011 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #825683BTGuyParticipant
Hi EzratHashem, Those are certainly some of the finer points that need to be considered. I agree
Hi gavra-at-work. You certainly do care what other people think. You commented about my view of that disgusting Shidduch organization with great zeal, admittedly offering no thoughts of your own. Based on your vehement “crititque” of my reaction, I would say you do care what others think. “Know thyself.”November 10, 2011 4:29 pm at 4:29 pm #825684
It’s more a reference to some of the “narishkeit” like civics, social studies, history (not jewish history though) sociology and classic literature.
Schools treat these subjects like an afterthought then wonder why kids SAT and ACT scores dont come close to their public school counterparts. Or why they have no respect for the law or society around them.
It’s taught more in the vein of “here are some subjects that you need to know a little bit about so you can get accepted to some degree mill and hock your way into some graduate program or law school”
Frightening to think about what’s going to happen when the well of rich grandparents runs dry.
Those people were extremly successful but for every one of them, there are a million people stuck in a dead end job (if they even have a job) with no hope of ever improving their situation.
It is true that becoming a Doctor or Lawyer can be a long and costly process but those are not the only two professional jobs that can be very lucrative. A college degree might not be worth what it once was but it is still worth every penny (in most cases, people with degrees in Medival Irish Poetry are probably not in too high a demand) Just a quick browsing of Careerbuilder or Monster and you will see that a lot of mid level or even entry level jobs require a 4 year degree.November 10, 2011 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #825685
I happen to have a degree in Computer Science AND I also happen to have a degree in “Narashkeit” History.
At the time there was only a choice to do the history in European , World or American History (Now you can specialize in Jewish History as well) and I specialized in American History.
There is no apikorsis in the American Civil War (I had to write a term paper on an aspect of the American Civil War and J.P. Morgan)
There is no apikorsis in learning about World War I and World War II (From an american point of view).
And if you want to say it was useless, I also majored in Computer Science where I mostly programmed in PASCAL, Knowing Pascal is about as useful in life as knowing about the American Civil WarNovember 10, 2011 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #825686
I agree with you!
I was just summerizing the “typical” point of view of those subjects.November 10, 2011 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #825687gavra_at_workParticipant
Hi gavra-at-work. You certainly do care what other people think. You commented about my view of that disgusting Shidduch organization with great zeal, admittedly offering no thoughts of your own. Based on your vehement “crititque” of my reaction, I would say you do care what others think. “Know thyself.”
100%! But it shouldn’t affect your Avodas Hashem!
Edit: To clarify, there is nothing wrong in caring what yenem thinks. After all we want to be “Noam Lebriyos”. However, when fear of what other people think interferes with your Avodas Hashem, that is a problem.
Make a cheshbon, discuss, & decide what Hashem wants, and go with it. Don’t decide based on what yenem will think.
P.S. My response to you on the NASI thread is that it is helpful to quantify the problem in order to propose a solution (I do not argue as far as their solution being incorrect, go back earlier in that thread), instead of not looking for the root of the problem. If that upsets you, I apologize.November 10, 2011 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #825688apushatayidParticipant
I dont know you Mr. or Ms. OP. I dont know your parents. From the limited information shared, it would seem that your parents are not overly concerned with you and your shidduch prospects, but their image in the community as parents of a college student and how it may affect them and their social standing.November 10, 2011 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #825689ImaofthreeParticipant
nowadays you can take courses on line and there are various programs available in the ny area for men and women (rebbitzen bulka, sorah shnierer, raizel rite).
You should discuss with your parents what options/courses they would allow you to take, do your research and present various schools to them.November 10, 2011 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #825690A Heimishe MomParticipant
It is hard for your parents to accept the new realities of life.
I think step number one when you, as an adult, are at odds with your parents is to seek out Daas Torah. College is not a must, but it is definitely a lot harder to find a job without it. There are also many professions which require certificate programs rather than 4 year college. If your parents can’t or won’t foot the bill you would have to take out loans.
Their one hope and nachas is to see you married off. This is also an issue about which to seek out Daas Torah. Boys and girls or being pushed into dating far too young. You need to be able to establish a form of parnassah, and perhaps a bit of savings, first. That said, once you are married it will be easier to qualify for financial assitance as you will be able to file as independant of your parents. BUT going to school and having babies don’t really work too well together, especially if you need to work to put food on the table. It is easier if you are the husband, but still hard.
And as to College=OTD that is really not true. Although there are many parents who do believe it, (and menahelim and roshei yeshiva that perpetuate it) you will find few “older singles” who haven’t moved on to receive some form of formal higher education. Either as something to do with their times, or as a means to further their careers. Being a copy girl or preschool assistant for 10K a year is not very fulfilling after a couple of years.November 10, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #825691yichusdikParticipant
Narishkeit subjects – -can help you develop skills that are essential for your own success and for klal Yisroel. A “narishkeit” history degree helped me develop into a writer, and aside from my professional development, the Jewish (communal and heimishe) organizations I have written grants and proposals for have received the funding they need to teach, support, and develop their institutions and their communities. It may seem likel “narishkeit” until you realize that the dollars supporting the institutions you or your kids or your friends depend on often get where they are needed because of people who earned “narishkeit” degrees.November 10, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #825692i love coffeParticipant
EzratHashem: Are you talking about the article,”Will Dropouts Save America” by Michael Ellsberg?November 10, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #825693
To the OP,
Have you discussed your financial worries with you parents? Here’s a bold move – how about telling them that you expect their support for the first 2-3 years of marriage? If they are preventing you from getting a better parnassah, then they should be responsible for the problems that come with it.
Can you compromise? For example, getting some training that will prepare you to make more that minimum wage. For example, the Agudah has a school called COPE Institue. I knew some working guys that said that their going to COPE had been a great investment in their careers. Maybe you can take online courses – no treif environment.
As someone said above, it’s hard to give specific ideas because you have given little details. But it seems that you need to speak with you parents. Also, you can ask then what if you don’t get married for a year or two, then what? Should your whole life be put on hold until then?November 10, 2011 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #825694
I just came up with this idea. If your parents don’t think that you need schooling because all parnassah comes from Hashem. Then you should not have to try to get married, not worry about it, because that comes from Hashem also. Bitachon is Bitachon. If you have it one place, you should have it in another. In reality, we need to put in our histadlut.November 10, 2011 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #825695
“???? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ?????” – the only stuff that is treif is stuff that contradicts Torah. If it doesn’t, then to say that it is invalid would be itself contradicting Torah.November 10, 2011 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #825696bptParticipant
This is the 2nd thread where I’ve seen a poster that appears blank. What gives?November 11, 2011 2:48 am at 2:48 am #825697
Zeeskite said it was gilgul-accusedasjosephindepast (didn’t reincarnate long…).November 11, 2011 5:25 am at 5:25 am #825698mddMember
Cleverjewishpun, what do you mean by “the hardline/extreme positions” of the Rambam?
EzratHaShem, the example of the rich drop-outs is not a good example. You can just hope to somehow strike it rich.November 11, 2011 5:34 am at 5:34 am #825699
Wun Uv Meny
“Zeeskite said it was gilgul-accusedasjosephindepast (didn’t reincarnate long…). “
This is the 2nd thread where I’ve seen a poster that appears blank. What gives? “
Yes that was my gost.November 12, 2011 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #825700ToiParticipant
whats your shailah? Parents nowadays are always wrong, and todays generation is way more experienced and knowledgable then their elders. fife fife fife. the rabbanim are out to lunch, too.November 13, 2011 1:59 am at 1:59 am #825701
“whats your shailah? Parents nowadays are always wrong, and todays generation is way more experienced and knowledgable then their elders. fife fife fife. the rabbanim are out to lunch, too. “
I think that many parents are acting in ways that are for their image in the community or according to newly perceived ideas of frumkite. I don’t live in the East Coast, but a friend of mine who grew up in a very yeshivish family told me that what is there now is nothing like what is was years ago. He said that people come up with ideas of being yeshivish which are totally erroneous.November 13, 2011 2:22 am at 2:22 am #825702
I really think this argument is moot, since there are plenty of ways to get a degree that the majority of the yeshivish world acknowledges.
And even if you DO go to a secular college, while doing so could theoretically drive you off the derech, the act itself can’t really be defined as such. Some MAY perceive it as not yeshivish/not done, but only someone really extreme would condemn a person as “OTD.” I know plenty of people who are in this situation, and B”H their Yiddishkeit is holding up nicely.
I’m not condoning this, of course. I just don’t think people should be so quick do condemn it.November 13, 2011 2:31 am at 2:31 am #825703HIEParticipant
btguy: how dare you say the limud chol is treifNovember 13, 2011 3:53 am at 3:53 am #825704
HIE: In all fairness, I don’t think BTGuy indicated that he AGREED with that sentiment.November 13, 2011 4:35 am at 4:35 am #825705taking a breakMember
k i know this has n/t to do w/ the topic but……
e/time i see the thread title i get kinda insulted. i’m in my second year of college and seen/heard lots of stuff (flirty guys, talkative frum men, men with language issues, women who didnt get dressed…).that doesnt mean i am any less frum than when i started college. have i changed? yes i’m not denying that. has college strengthened some areas of yiddishkeit for me? yes it has. yet for some reason the thread title is a slap in the face accusing people who go for higher education that we are not frum enough. can the mods please change the thread name to s/t less accusing? thanx,
sincerely, a sensitive college studentNovember 13, 2011 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #825706agittayidParticipant
The notion of what is “yeshivish” is not written in stone and may change over time. Many parents in their 50s and 60s did go to college and did have professional careers. Today, many are supporting their children who are not going to college, and have limited career prospects. Aren’t those working parents to be admired and respected? Perhaps, the pendulum will swing will swing back to the other side in the future, and an education and career will be considered “yeshivish.”November 13, 2011 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #8257071818Participant
If you become a lawyer or accountant and in a few years you have to start paying tuitions and buying a home, you will be looked up to, not down at , as you have prepared your family for the many responsibilities that come with a “frum life”. Good luck and all the best
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