August 9, 2011 3:20 am at 3:20 am #598519
So, I am an in town guy, someone suggested a girl from out of town to go out with. As happens alot the girl is traveling to me for the first date. I was asked to commit to at least 2 dates. I did so being that now is Bein Hazmanim but I really wonder what is the point? if the first date goes well then I would agree regardless to a second, and if it doesnt go well. why am I wasting both my time and hers pursuing something that is not gonna work anyhow?? Any ideas??August 9, 2011 3:22 am at 3:22 am #797599sheinMember
I agree with you in a sense, if the first date turns out to be a bust where you know it isn’t going to work, what’s the point of going on another date?August 9, 2011 3:23 am at 3:23 am #797600Bar ShattyaMember
You want retroactive ideas??
Anyway, the rule is that outoftowners get two dates. This can be compared to the fact that if you decide in the middle of the date that she smells like your pet alligator you dont just take her home but rather finish the date.August 9, 2011 3:34 am at 3:34 am #797601
i even told them clearly, that i am an easygoing guy and if i see any chance of it working i would agree to a second date, they said they want a commitment before she comes in. again i agreed anyhow, just wanna know why that would be a stipulationAugust 9, 2011 4:34 am at 4:34 am #797602
Bar Shattya, i see where the mods get it to call U a dolt! U dont ditch a girl in middle of a date because it is rude and disrespectful, but there should be no reason to agree to date #2 before date #1.August 9, 2011 11:07 am at 11:07 am #797603AstrixParticipant
u never know what she is going to be like.They want you to commit no matter how easy going you are cuz sometimes the shidduch could be so out of wack that you wont.She could be really not attractive and you would say no even if u r easy going so they go u in no matter what.Good Luck.August 9, 2011 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #797604popa_bar_abbaParticipant
U dont ditch a girl in middle of a date because it is rude and disrespectful, but there should be no reason to agree to date #2 before date #1.
I think he meant that you also don’t ditch a girl for the second date who flew in from out of town because it is rude and disrespectful inasmuch as she already invested significant time and money in you.August 9, 2011 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #797605
Bar Shattya, i see where the mods get it to call U a dolt! U dont ditch a girl in middle of a date because it is rude and disrespectful, but there should be no reason to agree to date #2 before date #1.
To add to what PBA said, you are saying there is no reason to be rude and disrespectful, yet you called someone else a dolt?! Apparently you don’t have any problems being rude and disrespectful.August 9, 2011 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #797606
I don’t understand why people make the girl travel to the guy for a first date, regardless of where she lives. I would go to her, because I would want her to feel as comfortable as possible. The same thing goes for a second date: If you know, as popa said, she invested a lot of time and money to see you, the least you can do is make her feel that it was worthwhile.August 9, 2011 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #797607
She comes to him perhaps to make him feel as comfortable as possible. Especially if he is learning and her coming will reduce his time away from the gemorah.August 9, 2011 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #797608
Just because you committed to a second date does not mean that she committed to a second date. She might just say no to a second date and let you off the hook.
Yes if she is the one spending the money and making the effort to come in she deserves two chances. She may be tired and feel awkward on the first date. After all the situation in itself is awkward. You are not picking her up from her home, where you are meeting her parents. She is not meeting you on her own turf where she is comfortable and accustomed to her surroundings. She might have forgotten her best shoes at home, or her favorite sweater or something. The first date is going to be awkward for her. But the second date might be better, since she has already gotten past the first stage of awkwardness.
So the best thing is to make her feel as comfortable as possible on the first date and help her past that stage and then consider the second date for her the first date for you.August 9, 2011 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #797609
I think it’s more important to make the girl feel comfortable than the guy (generally), and if it will reduce a little of his learning time to make her feel more comfortable, so be it.August 9, 2011 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #797610sheinMember
If she can cancel the second date, he can cancel the second date just as well.August 9, 2011 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #797611
Any girl who would want to marry him would much rather give up some comfort for herself so he could learn a little longer.August 9, 2011 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #797612
Any young man who can not understand why he should commit to a second date is not understanding enough to be dating girls from out of town to begin with. If you are only concerned with yourself then you are not ready to get married.August 9, 2011 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #797613RavKahaneTzadakMember
The first date with my wife was terrible but since I commited myself to always giving 2 dates I went out for a second date with her.
I did not have a good time with her and wasn’t too interested in seeing her again.
THANK GOD I DID!!!
When I finished that second date I was ready to marry her.
I think it’s impossible to judge someone in a few hours, go out with her again, you never know!!!
Remember, always treat her respectfully even if you know it will not work out.
Hatzlacha RabbaAugust 9, 2011 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #797614
Obaminator, even if you are right (and I don’t think you are), that is not the point. The point is that HE should be willing to give up some time from his learning to make her more comfortable. Derech eretz kadma latorah.August 9, 2011 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #797615
MP: You aren’t correct. Torah takes precedence. Any good girl is more than willing to give a little comfort for more Torah. That is derech eretz.August 9, 2011 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #797616walton157Member
You people are so naive. Maybe she’s coming into town to see what’s available to HER. Maybe she’s going on numerous dates with numerous young men. Same could hold for the young man. He goes out of town to see what’s available to HIM.
Obaminator: Derech Eretz takes precedence. Derech Eretz kadma LaTorah.August 9, 2011 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #797617
Obaminator- I can see your point of view, but I believe it goes both ways: Any good guy is more than willing to give up a little learning for her comfort. And if a girl knows that a guy is spending time and a little learning to come to HER for a date so that she will be more comfortable, I think she will appreciate it.
As a side point, I don’t think derech eretz is bound to Torah alone. I think it applies to everything. And making someone feel more comfortable is included.August 9, 2011 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #797618
It IS derech eretz that she give up a little comfort for Torah. It is derech eretz that he learn more rather than less. And learning shouldn’t be given up for comfort, comfort should be given up for Torah.
So when she comes to him so he shouldn’t have to leave the gemorah so much, that is derech eretz. AND she is happy and comfortable to do so. Especially since she knows she is getting schar for the additional Torah learning she enabled. A good girl is the one who wants it this way.August 9, 2011 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #797619
Obaminator, again, I can see your point of view, and I’m sure there are girls like that. There are also many girls not like that, and they are STILL GREAT GIRLS. You say that it is derech eretz for her to give up a little comfort for his Torah. And that may be true. But it is also derech eretz for HIM to give up a little learning for her comfort. So, as I said, it goes both ways. And since I am a guy, I would want to be the one giving something up for the girl. Making her come to me because I want to learn a little more (and if I’m in Yeshiva, I’m learning all day, anyway) is SELFISH.
You also said that learning shouldn’t be given up for comfort. I agree. But in this scenario, you’re not giving up learning for your own comfort. You’re giving up learning for for SOMEONE ELSE’S comfort. And that is a huge chessed.
Bottom line: I understand where you are coming from, and I agree with you about certain aspects. But I would ALWAYS give something up, as long as it’s not a huge deal, to make the girl I’m dating more comfortable, and my mind will never change.August 9, 2011 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #797620whatrutalkingabtMember
A good guy will take his gemorah along with him when he goes out of townAugust 9, 2011 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #797621
MP: It is not derech eretz to give up learning for comfort. And wanting to learn more Torah is not selfish whatsoever.
(I also understand where you are coming from. Since you are not giving up Torah learning by going to date, your thought is understandable.)
whatrutalkingabt: You can’t learn as well outside the beis medrash.August 9, 2011 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #797622oomisParticipant
I HATE “the rules.”August 9, 2011 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #797623
Obaminator, the girl is already considering that the boy should NOT give up too much time from learning by coming into his home town to date him. That is the Good Girl doing her part. If you don’t realize this, you are too closed minded and not ready for shiduchim.August 9, 2011 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #797624
Tell that to my wife.
Anyways, I was talking about her coming in, which you seem to agree with. Not about the 2 dates agreement.August 9, 2011 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #797625111111Participant
1 If you gave a commintment you are obligated to keep it, nothing to discuss, next time do not commit
2 Anybody in chinuch will tell you, if you started learning with someone or starting dorming with someone and you think after two or three hours with the person (a usual date length) it is not working out you should give it more time see if it will work out this is not any different
3 The girl obviously spent time and money to come in based on your word, should someone in business invest on your word?
4 I know several people that are married to because either the boy or the girl had commited to another date even though they felt the other party was not for them
5 Lastly you are doing yourself a disservice by saying no after one date, you never know maybe she was tired from the traveling, or something else happened that she was not up tp her usual self.
6 BOTTOM LINE YOU SHOULD HAVE GONE OUT AGAINAugust 10, 2011 3:49 am at 3:49 am #797626
Obaminator, why not ask your wife?August 10, 2011 3:58 am at 3:58 am #797627
I make the decisions in the house. She agrees with me.August 10, 2011 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #797628
I cannot believe that this has gone unchallenged.
Unless the girl is an out-of-towner that has relocated to the boy’s city (for a job,school or shidduchim) the mere suggestion that a young woman should travel to meet a man is appaling. And for this man (who, in my opinion has lost the right to use that title) to vacilate on wether or not the person is “worth a 2nd date” is even more disgusting. He should be filled with gratitude that someone is willing to go out with him in the 1st place, seeing as her scedule and (presumibly) her accomplishments far exceed his.
But then again, we as a society have come to the point where women work and men do not, so I guess the role reversal should not come as such a surprise.
True, there may be a rare case, like someone from out of the country who can arrange a 2-3 day stopover on a flight, but for a standard Chicago or LA to NYC trip?
Shame on the man who does not act like one. If he cannot find it in himself to take the initiative, how does he expect to run a family and household?August 10, 2011 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #797629
I’m not arguing over the propriety of agreeing to a second date before a first, but on the issue of travel my points are quite clear above and I maintain them. Additionally, I should add it is typical and fairly standard that the girl will travel to the guy’s city. So you may wish to fight city hall, but you wont get too far.
On the side point, I think it is pretty clear in the shidduch world that the girls need to be more appreciative when they have a date than vice versa, considering the guys are getting a lot more requests for dates than the girls. Which is another reason it works out better for her to travel to him. She has less dates thus has less times she would need to travel. If he would need to travel for many of his dates (and he has many more than her), it would be a lot more expensive. And it would also mean out-of-town girls would get a lot less dates if they tried to force the guy to travel to her. He could date many others locally without the need for travelling time, expense, and loss of study.
And I do believe the girls appreciate the great accomplishments her potential Choson has made in becoming a Torah scholar, and wishes to allow him uninterrupted.
Either way this will not change as much as you disagree with it. And I think I’ve been clear enough on this issue to need not further comment.August 10, 2011 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #797630minyan galMember
Obaminator, did you marry a local girl or one from OOT?August 10, 2011 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #797631
And are you a full time learner? Or do you have one on your payroll? Or do you have one to place, and are trying to convince yourself that this warped system is just?
No matter. In the end, you may be right, that the “system” is in the boy’s favor. But is he respected?
That is debatableAugust 10, 2011 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #797632TheGoqParticipant
Not every college student is on the dean’s list and not every Kollel guy is a Torah scholar.August 10, 2011 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #797633bein_hasdorimParticipant
aries2756; If she can forget her best shoes at home, when she knows she’s going in for a date, why should he give her a second chance,
unless she overnights them, how will this help the second time around? Are you saying in takes a few days to get over the trauma?
It is only Mentschlich to give it another shot if she went through the trouble of coming in. even if she’s desperate,
that doesn’t change the fact that she is coming to YOU & saving you the trouble of being at a disadvantage of not being on home turf. Oot many guys aren’t familiar with the roads, the places,
the traffic, or lack thereof which can be very disconcerting.
Since the girl has nothing to do, other than dress up, and allow the guy to pick her up. He on the other hand, has to do all the driving, planning the location, find parking, (in places where there isn’t) remembering where he parked(for all those guys who don’t rely on the girl for that) all the while watching the road and making eye contact at the same time. I feel the girl should come in, rather than the guy, and for the same reason, I feel the guy should appreciate, that her coming to him saves him headaches while costing her money. So if anyone is a Dolt, it’s a guy who refuses to give that girl a second shot.
Truth be told, from my vast experience, he’s actually giving himself another shot as well, and wise single guys would do well
to always keep that in mind!August 10, 2011 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #797634
On the side point, I think it is pretty clear in the shidduch world that the girls need to be more appreciative when they have a date than vice versa, considering the guys are getting a lot more requests for dates than the girls. Which is another reason it works out better for her to travel to him. She has less dates thus has less times she would need to travel. If he would need to travel for many of his dates (and he has many more than her), it would be a lot more expensive.
Not to mention she has fewer dates and thus has fewer times she would need to travel. And speaking of dates, he has many more the she.August 10, 2011 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #797635
This attitude of “boy superiority” is insulting. It may seem that way, because of all the noise, but not all boys are worth the trip.
I would never let my sons do such a thing. And they go to the “right” yeshivas, will be BMG certified, but will know how to behave like the men they are.
Shame on us as a community for allowing this to happen.August 11, 2011 3:26 am at 3:26 am #797636
bpt, not all of us allow this to happen as you can tell by the debate. I absolutely agree with you. And by the way you obviously were asking a rhetoric question if he was a full time learner. What would a full time learner be doing on the internet? That does NOT compute!
Obaminator, does your wife agree with your decision to be on the internet then too? Does she get a turn or is it just for you?August 11, 2011 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #797637
“you obviously were asking a rhetoric question if he was a full time learner”
Not really. He could be a 28 year old, who is looking to bolster (justify?) his case for continued support, while wife is doing his job.
But more than likely, he is stuck in the system, either as a parent of a boy who needs placement, or the parent of a girl who is facing a long term payout (and seeing his daugher look forward to a long working carrear, while son-in-law laughs it up with his buddies).
Regardless, the system is in serious need of a tune up.August 11, 2011 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #797638bein_hasdorimParticipant
bpt; the system is a collection of people that choose to follow it,
The sooner those who don’t feel it’s applicable to them step up to the plate, the quicker they wont be forced into s/t they don’t believe in, or can’t financially follow.
There are people who can and want this opportunity, and that’s why
it started in the first place.
People have to realize their place financially & not try to be in competition w/ others they obviously can’t compete with.
Making simchas they can’t afford, buying jewelry they cant pay for
etc.. etc.. Live within your means.August 11, 2011 11:06 pm at 11:06 pm #797639kol daveedMember
Having dated for a little while now I’ve come to realize that, like everything else in life, this is simply hishtadlus. What’s my goal on a date? Ensure the girl is comfortable, make her smile, and make her laugh, etc. Through this process I’ll be able to discern what kind of girl she is and if there’s potential for us to build our lives together. Ultimately though, this is in Hashem’s hands and when it’s the Ratzon H’ that I meet my kallah, I will certainly meet her. In the interim, each shidduch and eat date is an opportunity for chesed – to laugh at their jokes, hear them tell their story, to empathize and sympathize with another member ok Klal Yisrael. Trust me, acting in this manner will certainly gain more favor with the HaKadosh Baruch Hu and hasten our meeting our own basherts than treating his sons and daughters in a crass and callous manner.August 12, 2011 12:29 am at 12:29 am #797640
I am fed up with all these “boys” I can’t say men, who are so smug and full of themselves because they have the upper hand at the moment vis a vis shiduchim. Because in the end the playing fields is always leveled out. Hashem has a plan for everyone and no matter how much better you are than the girls who “nebech” do not have as many choices and dates as you do, and have to do the traveling in search of dates, and so on….And you think your in hot demand and hot pursuit and you think YOU are in charge of the picking and choosing. Know this. YOU ARE GOING TO TAKE OUT THE GARBAGE LIKE EVERY OTHER HUSBAND!!!! and be grateful for the privilege of having such an amazing wife no matter who HASHEM picks for you.August 12, 2011 1:59 am at 1:59 am #797641StamperMember
Which husband takes out the garbage? None that I know.August 12, 2011 3:35 am at 3:35 am #797642whats_in_a_nameMember
You really don’t know of any husband that takes out the garbage? That’s so weird.August 12, 2011 5:10 am at 5:10 am #797643
OK!!! just to clarify! i would never suggest that a girl travel to me for a date. the girl is coming with her family for a local wedding, once they are here we are going out. i DID commit to two dates and i plan on keeping my commitment, my only question is why they even ask for two? if the first is a bust, the second is a waste of time AND MORE AWKWARD for the GIRL herself!August 12, 2011 5:59 am at 5:59 am #797644
My rabbi takes out the garbage at his house. But so do the kids.August 12, 2011 6:11 am at 6:11 am #797645
aries, Thank you for saying that! You just spoke what was on my mind after reading some of these posts. My goodness, some guys have a lot of growing up to do. I’m actually somewhat happy now that I have limited suggestions for dates because of my ‘family situation’, because at least I won’t even think about having the upper hand.
And Stamper, really? You don’t know of any husbands that take out the garbage? That’s terrible.
I look forward to helping my wife wash the dishes. I dream about it.August 12, 2011 8:13 am at 8:13 am #797646jmj613Participant
and how we take out the garbage!!!! if a guy tells me hes not hes a lier…what i cant comprehend from all the debate is why have guys the “upper hand” in shiduchim? i dont have kids in shidduchim age biggest one is 10 bh and im not up to date whats going on?August 12, 2011 9:21 am at 9:21 am #797647kapustaParticipant
It IS derech eretz that she give up a little comfort for Torah. It is derech eretz that he learn more rather than less. And learning shouldn’t be given up for comfort, comfort should be given up for Torah.
Its really nice if she wants to be mentchlich about it, and she should be, but that doesn’t take away his responsibility to act like a mentch.
And speaking of dates, he has many more the she.
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