- This topic has 102 replies, 24 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 9 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
The following was posted by DH, the Joke was my point to him.
Reminds me of the SIL joke with the prospective SIL saying G-d will help, and the FIL saying “see, he already calls me G-d” 🙂
My father loves that joke. I think its the most disgusting joke a jew ever made. All it does is numb the hearts of parents through leitzanos and causes a person to forget that there is a Mashgiach in this world.
Where does the idea that a person’s parnassah is nigzar from the begining of the year fit into that joke? Where does that joke extol the mitzvah of supporting Torah?
Instead it teaches a person that it is through kochi v’etzem yadi that I get my parnassah and then I should have to give MY hard earned money to X who would rather sit around all day reading books.
BS”D
I didn’t want to hijack that thread.
Rav Moshe Wolfson has said “As a Kollel man, don’t expect to live like a Doctor”.
So what does this mean? Why not? After all, isn’t parnassah decided for Hashem?
Expalins Rav Wolfson, that granted that Hashem decides what you will get on Rosh Hashana. That does not mean you can now sit back, and say it is coming to me since it was nigzar.
What it does mean is that each profession has a normal range, and an abnormal range. For example, 99% of doctors will make within a certain percentage (plus or minus) normally, but in a extreme year, they can do either really well or CV the opposite.
Similar with your Kollel Bochur. 99% will make within a range, and there are extremes.
What Hashem decides on Rosh Hashana is where you will be in that range. Of course he could decide that you will be in the extreme, but that does not usually happen.
Therefore, if Hashem decides someone will be making the average, a doctor will make much more than the Kollel Bochur.
And the person who sits on his hands makes the average of someone who sits on their hands.
Or, more simply, just because you know that Hashem wrote you some money, that doesn’t tell you how much.
sorry no comment on that. too bad.
First of all, I’m not sure if you meant it this way, but in context I understood your joke to be referring to people who would like to be supported by their parents /in-laws for a few years (assuming, obviously, that they can afford it) while they sit in kollel.
I’m not coming to disagree with Rav Wolfson. In fact, both myself and my friends can testify that we are not living anything like doctors. But we know Torah is one of the three things that was given b’yisurin (Berachos 5a) and besides for yichidei segulah, this is the only way to do it.
The Chofetz Chaim (Chofetz Chaim al haTorah by the brachos of Yissachar and Zevulun in Vayichi and others)writes that together the Machzikei Torah and the Lomdei Torah are called the Amudei Olam because it is only through the combined effort of both Yissachar and Zevulun that Torah can be learned.
In Pekudei he writes that the yetzer hora saw that he couldn’t stop the Lomdei Torah he turned to the ba’alei batim and there he was matzliach because they do not know how great the chiyuv is to support Torah. In a footnote he brings the Zohar as explaining that this is what is meant when the sar of Esav hit Yaakov’s thigh, the thigh supports the body just like the machzikei Torah support the Lomdim.
Jokes like these support this vort of the Chofetz Chaim. Yes, I understand that there is some naivety with some bochurim who misjudge their level of bitachon thinking that they do not have to make any sort of plans before they enter marriage.
But this joke is very popular among parents whose children sit and learn. From the parents’ aspect these jokes teach that there is no reason for parents or in-laws to support their children -as much as they are able- in order that they can learn. They help to undermine the gadlus of being mechazek Lomdei Torah in people’s eyes and especially the eyes of the parents themselves.
So I ask you again. Where does this joke extol the greatness of Machzikei Torah?
From your comment in the other thread I understand that you would say that Chofetz Chaim also had the “new school of charedi thought” opinion.
1. Yissurin is when I put my hand into my pocket to take out three coins but only two came out.
2. Absolutely. Some of it began even before I had gotten married. And although I think I seem to be suffering less than some of my friends, there are others that seem to be suffering less than me. Even those things that are yisurin from wanting to live in E”Y are also included for me because the reason why I chose to live here is because it is more conducive to my learning.
3. If this is your comment than I suspect you missed the gist of the point I was trying to convey.
In addition, even if the son-in-law would be willing to live on bread and water himself, he cannot force this on his wife nor is it healthy to force this on his children and so his only choice to be be mashlich al Hashem yehavo.
4. I do not live in Yerushalayim now, but when I did during shana rishonah I lived in a box the size of your living room. My neighbor two doors down had one window near his door, one sink, 1 bedroom- with 2 kids. Someone I know living their now wasn’t even graced with a bedroom door, instead he uses a sheet to cover the doorway that splits his salon from his bedroom. If you get too hot while you are lounging on the “luxurious” two seater that he somehow fit, his freezer in arms reach where you might find an ice pop. I can go on.
I happen to know that any one of these people could go back to their countries of origin at any time. They are not tzionim. They only remain here because they are seeing more hatzlacha in their learning.
Please read my first post again to better understand the point I was trying to make about that joke.
For those who are just joining the coffee room, this is not a private exchange between someone named gavra at work and her husband (which is what most people think of when they see DH) but two posters named gaw and Derech Hamelech.
people think I’m a girl?
GAW,
Perhaps you can explain to me what a “Kollel Bochur” is? You keep using that term. To me the term apppears to be an oxymoron.
GAW,
So I did not misread your negativity to those who chose to remain in learning even if they do not suffer punery.
Besides, your “explanation” does NOT agree with your use of the term in your first comment.
BTW, what term do you use for those who work and are irresponsible or those who are in “University” and demand significant support from their families?
Apartments in Boro Park have names?
It is not the joke itself that offends me, in fact I think it is funny as far as jokes go. It is from where this joke comes from that bothers me.
As I said before, the context that you had first stated this joke seemed to me as though you were referring to the fact that many kolleleit are supported/semi-supported by their parents. As I tried to show from my first post, I believe this is atzus hayetzer in order to desensitize parents from wanting to support their children as they do toil in the mitzvh that is k’neged kulam. It will be hard to deny that this is an effect of that joke as I happen to know this joke was told went around his shul among the fathers that have sons/in-laws that are learning.
I am not trying to one-up you in “who lives more frugally”, because frankly it doesn’t matter. I only mentioned those things because the tone of your previous post suggested that maybe I am not aware what it is like to live with difficulty.
I happen to be on in the CR more then normal these past few days because I have the flu, but that is neither here nor there.
Boruch Hashem, although we were receiving help from both our parents the first year, it has been a number of years since then. My wife works and between that, kollel and the lower overhead in E”Y we are usually able to make ends meet. In addition, none of my brothers are married yet, although they are in the parsha.
My point here though was not to discuss my personal issues with this joke, but what I perceive as opposing Torahdig values.
To quote myself:
Yes, I understand that there is some naivety with some bochurim who misjudge their level of bitachon thinking that they do not have to make any sort of plans before they enter marriage.
And maybe that was the original source of this joke. But it seems to be circulating just as much among parents who do support kolleleit.
I would suggest that perhaps it is an outlook that delegitimizes kollel learning because it is perceived as akin to begging or schnorering, that breeds resentment and anger. But this is not true. Hashem built this system into klal Yisroel. Shevet Levi and shevet Yissachar all were forced to rely on other people for their parnassah because they were the entrusted with perpetuating the Torah. They were the Lomdei and M’Lamdei Torah (in general) and the rest of us were the Machzikei Torah (again, in general). We gave terumos and maseros. Zevulun took care of Yissachar. Nowadays, it is the yeshivaleit and kolleleit who have this job.
So again, my issue is not with the joke itself per se, but how I feel it has been used to desensitize parents to the greatness of the mitzvah that they are performing.
“In fact, both myself and my friends can testify that we are not living anything like doctors.”
Most doctors don’t make anything like people think they make. Median income for primary care physicians has been running about $150K/yr.; you can’t easily raise a frum family on that in the NY area. And doctors typically end up with six figure debts from medical school. I personally know doctors who can’t even afford to buy a reasonable co-op apartment in a frum neighborhood.
I assume that it was by chance that you happened to quote me and not gavra_at_work, who quoted it to me. Or Rav Moshe Wolfson who was the one quoted.
I certainly agree with you that feelings of resentment can occur if the father/in-law feels there is a stronger learner that might need the money more besides for his own son/in-law, but what can you do- aniyei ircha kodmin.
I think points 1 and 4 are the same, namely that there is only room to talk if the parents can afford it or willing to make sacrifices in order to do it.
Point 2 is just saying that most parents aren’t ba’alei nefesh that they can see the larger picture that at the end of the day their children are learning despite a bad attitude. But I think that is normal.
3 is similar to 2 in that if the child is learning SOMETHING he is already getting more schar for himself and doing good for the rest of the world than had he been doing nothing. But if he spends first AND second seder in the Coffee Room, then yeah.
5 I am not sure I can agree the whole way. A boy has the right to want to sit and learn. The onus is on the girl’s father to marry his daughter to a talmid chacham (pesachim 49a). The predominance of talmidei chachamim among people who want to remain in learning is much higher than among those that don’t. The gemorah says a person should sell everything he has for this.
That being said, I’m also sticking myself in a hole as my first is a girl and in E”Y you have to buy apartments if you want your girls to get married.
When you say that you “do admit that this is the ‘New Israeli Chareidi Hashkafa'” are you referring to my quote from the Chofetz Chaim? I don’t understand how that would make it a ‘new’ hashkafa.
In fact considering all the European Yeshivos used to go collecting all over Europe and America, I’m not sure I understand where you are coming from at all. I’m not even sure why you call it ‘nowadays’ and ‘Israeli’ when Lakewood has had a kollel for years.
The most that you can say is that kollelim have spread over the last generation and I fail to see how that is a bad thing. Do we not both agree that Talmud Torah k’neged Kulam and that the Limud Torah that takes place is responsible for most of the good things that we have today?
I’d also like to address your suggestion that I maintain a “‘magiyah li’ attitude”. As I previously stated, I’m not supported by anyone, have not been for a number of years. I think that what you are calling ‘magiyah li’ I am calling “magiyah l’lomdei Torah”. I think it is the job of all of klal Yisroel to support Lomdei Torah and I think for the most part those of us that are learning recognize it.
True story: I had some extra money not a lot but a nice sum for E”Y and arranged a roundabout way for it to make its way to a friend of mine who was having a lot of trouble getting Shabbos food together on a weekly basis. (Yes, I also feel it is my job to help support Lomdei Torah.) This friend in turn turned down the money and instead passed it on to another friend who he felt was in an even worse position than himself.
I think this story illustrates that it is not a ‘magiya li’ attitude that we have but that we understand that we are all responsible in helping support Torah any way we can. For some of us this means learning it, for others that means supporting it but everyone has to be a part of it to the extent of their abilities.
You are right. No one can sit around at home all day expecting money to come in. But we are not talking about sitting around all day. We are talking about people that are doing avodas hakodesh, the most important occupation in the universe.
You would pay your doctor for a checkup, but you wouldn’t pay someone who is sitting and learning for maintaining the world around you?
You would pay your doctor for a checkup, but you wouldn’t pay someone who is sitting and learning for maintaining the world around you?
No, because the men surrounding me are also learning and maintaining the world around us.
As to the Yeshivas in Europe – they were a small percentage of the population. It was affordable for towns to donate or sponsor 1-2 of their bochurim. It wasn’t enmasse the way it is today.
I can’t speak about E”Y too much (I don’t understand the system there), but I do know that in the US, most of Lakewood is living off of social services. Its not a sacrifice when your rent, food and medical insurance is covered and your wife earns a low salary to cover everything else.
I’ve basically stopped donating my money to organizations that perpetuate lifestyles that need charity.
How do you plan to pay for your daughters apartment?
Ah ok GAW. So that means either collecting in America, or taking out huge gemach loans that should be there for those who have emergencies. Or “settling” on a son-in-law.
SJS:
No, because the men surrounding me are also learning and maintaining the world around us.
Sustaining the world is a joint effort. If a person comes out of surgery r”l does he only pay the guy who held the clamps or the guy who holds the sucking tube? We do not know who’s Torah is responsible for what each thing we have in the world. Besides for that if the men around you are working 9-5 to support their families, who is keeping the world up during those work hours?
It wasn’t enmasse the way it is today.
The tone here suggests that you think it is worse when more people are learning?
I do not know how it works in America but if you are saying that people are supported without the need for tzeddaka then what point are you trying to make?
I’ve basically stopped donating my money to organizations that perpetuate lifestyles that need charity.
As Mod. 80 said in another thread “a person needs zchus for the Rabbano Shel Olam to allow him to support Torah learning”
(sorry mod hope I don’t get you in trouble)
How do you plan to pay for your daughters apartment?
Well, I’m kind of hoping that this will pass by then. But either way, I’ve already asked the Tolna Rebbe if I could start putting money away for shidduchim and he said no, I need to have bitachon that I will get the money when I need it.
Well, I’m kind of hoping that this will pass by then. But either way, I’ve already asked the Tolna Rebbe if I could start putting money away for shidduchim and he said no, I need to have bitachon that I will get the money when I need it.
Aizehu chacham? The person who buries his head in the sand and hopes the problem goes away.
The Wolf
The Wolf, you are calling the Tolna Rebbe someone who buries his head in the sand?
Come on Wolf, you know that your comment was just an appeal to ridicule and didn’t actually counter the main point I was trying to say.
The Wolf, you are calling the Tolna Rebbe someone who buries his head in the sand?
No, I’m calling DH someone who buries his head in the sand. The Tolna Rebbe is not the one who will have to marry off a daughter with no funds.
What, otherwise, is the meaning of “Aizehu Chacham?” Is it not a call for us to actually prepare for things that we know are coming?
I don’t mean to single you out, DH — you’re just the unlucky soul to express the idea.
The Wolf
DH,
There are time zones. When my husband is at work, someone in E”Y is able to be learning….or Australia…or England. And he is fulfilling Torah obligations by:
1) Fulfilling the terms of his ketubah
2) Applying halacha within his job (including opportunities to do more types of mitzvos he wouldn’t be able to do while in Beis Medrash)
3) Earning money for tzedaka
His time learning may be limited, but his mesiras nefesh for the time spent learning or going to a minyan is much greater. I don’t keep score, so I can’t tell you if his learning is more “valuable” than a guy sitting and learning. I do know that he is living Torah while at work.
As to the enmasse – the current system forces donations of various types (most notably tuition in the US). Sending a few bochurim to yeshiva was affordable. Nowadays, the Kollel system is hard to maintain. Thus people turn to social services (American charity) or gemachim (Jewish charity) or donations from others (often coerced from family).
I don’t support charities that discourage men from supporting their families. That is the Torah way. Kollel lifestyle is a luxury and I would rather support those trying to feed and clothe themselves (and help them as needed) rather than support a luxury. Learning Torah? Mandatory. Kollel? Luxury.
If a Kollel family is having trouble feeding their family, I would try to help the husband get a job. I wouldn’t hand over money (in most cases).
You can support Torah without supporting Kollel.
LOL @ Wolf.
Come on Wolf, you know that your comment was just an appeal to ridicule and didn’t actually counter the main point I was trying to say.
I may have used humor to express it, but my point was not meant as an appeal to ridicule.
You *know* the day is coming. You’re just (figuratively) burying your head in the sand and hoping that it won’t be there when they day comes. Do you *really* expect such a radical shift the nature of hareidi marriage in Israel that the idea of buying apartments for your daughter and son-in-law is no longer “required” to get a decent shidduch?
The Wolf
Wolf:
The main thrust of my statement was that I had asked the Tolna Rebbe what to do and he gave me an answer. My own personal thoughts on the matter are irrelevant- it would be just as great if a checked popped in the mail the night before my daughter turns 18. Harbeh shluchim ika l’makom.
I’m not sure if I agree with you that “Eizehu chacham- haro’eh es hanolad” is a call to prepare for things to come. I think da’as is the ability to act according to the chochmah that you have. Regardless, I think I was mekayem this mishnah by asking the Tolna Rebbe in the first place:
i saw the nolad (my daughter will need to get married and I will need money)
and then I was mekayem aseh lcha rav (I asked the Tolna Rebbe what I should do).
Then I was mekayem “eizehu chacham halomen mikol adam” He taught me that this far away from a chasunah I should not begin any hishtadlus and should rely on bitachon alone.
SJS:
I do know that he is living Torah while at work…
And he is fulfilling Torah obligations by…
That is wonderful and it does say in pirkei avos that ‘lomed al minas la’asos” is one of the 48 kinyanei Torah.
But fulfilling Torah obligations is not the same as Limud Torah with regard to supporting the world.
It also seems that you missed a point I made earlier in that, we do not know who’s Torah is supporting what aspect of the world. For all you know it is the man in Bnei Brak who has been eating half a slice of bread for breakfast every morning that is responsible for some of the good things that you have.
I have some difficulty understanding your stance. Do you then believe that shevet Yissachar was wrong for making a deal with Zevulun?
If you say that Zevulun chose to accept on themselves to carry Yissachar, then why don’t you chose this (assuming you can afford to)?
Was it right for Zevulun to discourage Yissachar from supporting their own families, since this is not the Torah way?
Kollel lifestyle is a luxury
For who? I don’t know anybody in kollel who is living the easy life. So you must mean it is a luxury for the klal. I’m not sure I agree with that either because it is the klal’s responsibility to support lomdei Torah (as per Chofetz Chaim quoted above).
Derech Hamelech,
If you are being supported by others, then Kollel is a luxury. If you are independantly wealthy and supporting yourself, its a luxury you are paying for on your own. Having enough money to support yourself without having to work (and thus being able to learn full time) is a luxury. I’m not sure why this concept is difficult.
Why don’t I support Kollelim? Because there are Jewish children who are starving. There are sick people who need medical care. The guy sitting and learning in Lakewood? A nice luxury, but not a necessity.
I don’t think Y/Z was wrong. It was a choice they made. Often at the expense of others who actually need the money. Every dollar donated to Kollel is a dollar that could be used to help sick, dying people. The money could be spent feeding poor children.
I don’t consider Kollel families “in need.”
g_a_w:
I’m starting to notice a pattern here. It is either ‘Old School Chassidishism” and not tenable anymore.
Or it is “New School E”Y Chareidi” and not the way it was originally done.
You have a way of pigeonholing these things.
I am not sure where you think I went wrong. There is something called emunas chachamim. I am not a Tolna Chassid, I just go to him for my eitzas. So while I don’t feel like I need to give him my money per se, I hope that if he told me to give it to him I would have the ko’ach hanefesh to be able to.
I’m sorry I thought I answered your point on magiyah li. Can you repost that part because I can’t find which one you are referring to.
SJS:
I don’t understand why you think that learning Torah is a luxury anymore than any other mitzvah.
Why don’t I support Kollelim? Because there are Jewish children who are starving. There are sick people who need medical care. The guy sitting and learning in Lakewood? A nice luxury, but not a necessity
and therein lies the crux of our disagreement. We are taught that limud haTorah has the ability to keep people healthy, keep people fed etc. All the brachos come from limud haTorah. When your husband sits and learns he isn’t just giving you a zchus, he is helping prevent a Jew in Australia from getting needing medical attention.
Derech Hamelech,
First, as I’ve said, learning Torah is NOT a luxury. Sitting all day and learning in Kollel and relying on others to feed your family is a luxury.
While its a nice concept that learning takes care of people, we also have to live within derech hateva. That means I have to do my hishtadlus to take care of my family.
So I choose to give my tzedaka money to the kids who are hungry. To the people who need medical care. To the disabled and the elderly who lack others to help them.
I think the biggest problem with Kollel society today is that they neglect hishtadlus and say “Hashem will provide.” Since Hashem will provide, Kollelim clearly don’t need my money right?
GAW and Wolf,
I think we are overlooking the brilliance of the Tolna Rebbe. He tells all his followers not to save for an apartment for their daughters. The Tolna chassidim (I assume) want their kids to marry other Tolna chassidim. So as the kids get older, none of the girls will have apartments. If they want to marry within their chassidish sect, they will have to accept no apartment.
Its the start of breaking the ridiculous apartment requirement.
Its truly brilliant.
SJS:
Doing hishtadlus for your parnassah or as you call it ‘living within derech hateva’ has nothing to do with Torah’s protection. The derech hateva IS that Torah protects us. If you are not familiar with the origin of the term “Neturei Karta”, it is a reference to the Yerushalmi that says that the Lomdei Torah are the Neturei Karta and not the guards of the city.
Bitachon and hishtadlus have an inverse relationship. I implore you to read the book Worldmask by Rabbi Akiva Tatz. Also a small red sefer called “Mitzvos Habitachon”. If you don’t believe that a person should have bitachon with his parnassah where are we meant to have bitachon?
The truth is that me and my friends often talk about how we see yad hashem in our parnassah. Hashem does provide, the only question: do YOU want the zchus of being a shliach for it? It seems the answer is no. To that the only things I can say is that I also suggest that you learn Nefesh Hachaim sha’ar dalet and a sefer called Bonei Olam.
I am assuming that your second post comes from your lack of understanding of the importance of Torah and those that learn it to the Jewish people. It was extremely chutzpadig. I am not sure if your community lauds talking this way about Rabbonim, but in mine we just don’t do that. I am not a Tolna chossid as I said earlier, so the ‘point’ you were trying to make by ridiculing a rov and a talmid chochom is lost.
After hearing your stance here, I have to ask again: what exactly does bitachon mean to you?
GAW: Your public cynicism of Gedolei Yisroel is duly noted.
Derech Hamelech,
I have absolute bitachon in Hashem, especially with regards to parnassah. I know Hashem gave me the skills, helped me get an education and helps me keep my job. Hashem provide both myself and my husband with jobs that ensure we can raise our family, pay our tuition and provide a solid, stable Torah home.
I’ve heard of the bitachon and hishtadlus equation. Its taught in every school. I think its a misnomer the way its taught – with proper bitachon, you should recognize that Hashem gives you the right avenues to do your hishtadlus. Not that Hashem is going to drop enough money in your lap.
Again, I donate to people that NEED money. If I see (literally or figuratively) a starving child and a Kollel man in front of me, and can only give one, who do I give? The child who may die from lack of food? Or the man who wants to keep learning without supporting his own family? I choose the hungry child.
It happens to be the way I was taught – you give those that need over those that want.
All the men I know who work also learn. They are also supporting the world. But that starving child or that person who can’t afford medical care has a pressing need that the Kollel man does NOT.
I was not making fun of the Tolna Rebbe. I truly think its a brilliant plan. I am being 100% serious. I think the girls requiring an apartment to get married is so wrong. Unfortunately, its hard to break the system. The Tolna Rebbe seems to have found a way to start break the system. I’m sorry you took my post to be making fun of the Tolna Rebbe, it is not.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.