July 19, 2011 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #788220ToiParticipant
I have a personal relationship with a prominent kallah teacher in a big city in america. She told me that you wouldnt believe how many aveiros and divorces come out of couple meals. You really wouldnt believe it. Unless your oisek in that field then all your theorizing about it is worthless. It is very very bad. And you are uninformedJuly 19, 2011 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #788222observanteenMember
Our family is very warm and we enjoy having lots of guests. What we do is simply seat the women in the kitchen and the men in the dining room.
IMHO, young couples shouldn’t be hosting guests. It’s their time to develop a relationship. I don’t think it’s an aveira, but why wave a red cloth at the bull?July 19, 2011 9:36 pm at 9:36 pm #788223Blintz182Participant
And I have a personal relationship with many fine couples who have shared a Shabbas/Yom Tov table with my wife and I. You know what happened at those meals?
We had double the laughter, double the food, double the divrei Torah and double the zemiros. It’s called hachnosas orchim, and it’s been the Jewish practice since the very first Jew. If having your wife/husband at the table isn’t a profound enough deterrent to keep one from flirting with another’s spouse, then one needs to thoroughly examine the mettle of one’s marriage.
As with any social event–including ones that are just men or just women–there is a degree of common sense that must go into who is invited. Nobody wants that one man who’s going to drink too much and do/say inappropriate things, and no-one wants the married woman who shamelessly flirts with other men at the table. If people are known to behave in such a manner, don’t invite them.July 19, 2011 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #788224TruehonestyMember
There really is little more to add to the points raised. I have a young married friend who told me that he finds it awkward when his wife’s brother comes for a Shabbos meal with his wife. His brother-in-law is a very quiet guy whilst his wife is much more sociable and outgoing. He himself is also outgoing and his wife quieter. It usually ends up that he chats and laughs with his sister-in-law and the brother and sister smile quietly along. On occasion, the sister-in-law even prods her husband to say more and join in more…. He feels very uncomfortable about it. Anyone got advice?July 19, 2011 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #788226WolfishMusingsParticipant
In the past you repeatedly refer to yourself as a sinner. What gives?
Feel free to call me a sinner about things I have *actually* sinned about. There is so much of that available that there is no need to call me a sinner for something that is not, in fact, a sin.
The WolfJuly 19, 2011 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #788227WolfishMusingsParticipant
it leads to cheating/infidelity %100 or wishing you could.
Baloney. I have never cheated, or wished I could cheat, with any guest who has been to my house.
The WolfJuly 19, 2011 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #788228ToiParticipant
Blintz- I understand your indignance. And i dont mean to say that youve done wrong. obviously not every, or even many, couple seudos cause problems. But the same way that internet is only thouroughly destructive a minute percent of the time, and texting doesnt always derail a teens yiddishkeit, why would people engage in an idea which can, and does, wreck marriages. I have heard the actual stories from her. You dont kknow cuz your not involved in this area.)July 19, 2011 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #788229mikehall12382Member
100 percent of the time???better go speak to my wife, then have a word with myself 😉July 20, 2011 12:19 am at 12:19 am #788230oomisParticipant
You really wouldnt believe it”
Yes, you are correct about that.July 20, 2011 3:16 am at 3:16 am #788231yankdownunderMember
This Thread is becoming nasty with terrible lashon being expressed, and especially now that we are in the three weeks. Mods please close this thread.July 20, 2011 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #788232etzharParticipant
To Fix it up “oomis- i had the same question…. I’m going to find out about this. You gotta love this cr and everybodies crazy opinions!”
I find your comments a little offensive. At least oomis had the good grace to query what I had said. Al tarbeh sichoh means “do not talk too much” that doesnt mean not at all. I refer you to Kitzur Shulchan Aruch Perek 150 Seif 1. The al tarbeh is in fact referring to prior to intimacy and one has to be careful.it comes from a passuk “Umaggid Le’odom mah sicho..” This is halacha not frumkeit or somebody’s crazy opinions!! Who did you ask who said it was ridiculous?July 20, 2011 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #788233apushatayidParticipant
For some people, a seudah with 700 guests might be a problem. Everyone has to know themselves and set limits for themselves as they see fit. If you do set a limit on yourself, that’s wonderful, it does not mean the rest of the world must now adopt your limits or that your limits are now the accepted standard. If you feel it is detrimental to your marriage and/or your yiras shamayim to have another couple over for a meal, then by all means don’t invite another couple or don’t accept such an invitation.July 20, 2011 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #788234ItcheSrulikMember
Let’s conduct an experiment.
I will ask two recently married close friends (one shanah rishona) to host couples at their shabbos tables this week. We’ll see what happens.July 20, 2011 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #788235
I think if you’re not a kallah teacher/rov/mentor in a community you cannot conduct this study and you could never know how much this affects young couples. its a scary thing to start and not worth it!!!!!!!!!July 20, 2011 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #788236gavra_at_workParticipant
I have a young married friend who told me that he finds it awkward when his wife’s brother comes for a Shabbos meal with his wife.
I’m glad someone brought up family relationships in this conversation. The Gemorah (Pesachim 113a, similar Bava Basra 98b) says that one must be careful with his wife and his sons in law. I find it difficult that we are discussing not having couples together, but we ignore the Gemorah and have sons in law by their Shviggers!!! Especially when the gemorah says about it that people must be careful.
One who is “sensitive” in these areas (eating with the opposite gender) must be sure not to go to their shvigger for meals, and certainly never to sleep at their home, CV! Also one must not invite their son in law for a meal or have them at their house.July 20, 2011 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #788237whatrutalkingabtMember
Fix it up-
“And cmon, hus goiing to sit there thinking that the other wife is more attractive or wtvr?”
“But I dunno, i think that husband and wife should trust each other enough to know that they arent going to be “looking” and “comparing”
I think you’re being a little naive. Sit down and ask your husband for a little chat to explain to you how Hashem created man. Its not a matter of trust – its automatic and its a natural behavior that man has to fight
“Baloney. I have never cheated, or wished I could cheat, with any guest who has been to my house.”
Im sure you havent but I presume (based on your posts) that you did not grow up in an insular little box the way many yeshivish people nowadays do. Its very different for someone who grew up open minded in a setting where its accepted to speak with people of the opposite gender, than it is for a couple who never dealt with anyone from the opposite gender besides their spouse. For them it is much more dangerous
(This was not meant as an insult or to say you sinned by growing up like that- quite the contrary- I’m explaining why for you it may be ok but for others it may not be. You have to know who you are and who you are hosting)
Another point is that young couples married for a year or two should be focusing on their own relationship – not hosting another couple that may cause jealousy and discontentment, when their relationship is not yet solid. For older couples who are already off the rocks it isnt as bad, especially if there are a bunch of children joining the meal as well.
For those touting the hachnosas orchim shpiel- there are plenty of other guests that you can have over- bochurim from a yeshiva, siblings, your grandparents, older lonely people…there is plenty of opportunity to do hachnosas orchim.July 20, 2011 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #788238DroidMember
It ISN’T hachnosos orchim to invite neighborhood friends and couples, as was earlier discussed on this thread.July 20, 2011 3:43 pm at 3:43 pm #788239MiddlePathParticipant
“Im sure you havent but I presume (based on your posts) that you did not grow up in an insular little box the way many yeshivish people nowadays do. Its very different for someone who grew up open minded in a setting where its accepted to speak with people of the opposite gender, than it is for a couple who never dealt with anyone from the opposite gender besides their spouse. For them it is much more dangerous”
You are absolutely right. That is pretty much what it comes down to. I, personally, would have no problem having young couples over because I grew up among people who would, and where it is considered normal to be sociable with the opposite sex. Therefore, I find it totally fine to have any type of guest over. But in more “Yeshivish” circles, where it is considered wrong to be sociable with the opposite sex, it may be more prone to lead to problems if they have young married couples over, since they aren’t used to such a setting and wouldn’t necessarily know how to act and where to draw the line.July 20, 2011 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #788240ItcheSrulikMember
Adding too many exclamation points doesn’t make you right.July 20, 2011 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #788241
lol I think its the passionJuly 20, 2011 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #788242
and I think Im right. but we can disagree its fineJuly 20, 2011 5:50 pm at 5:50 pm #788243whatrutalkingabtMember
Dont worry adorable, I think your right also but as I said before, there isnt as much of a problem for people who socialize with the opposite gender in other settings anywaysJuly 20, 2011 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #788244Blintz182Participant
I apologize if I came on too strong, but I do tend to get very sore when I feel that people are making blanket statements along the popular assur-until-proven-muttar line.
Obviously, there is a CHANCE–however insignificant and infinitesimal–that any woman other than one’s wife may end up being the catalyst for infidelity, but that is why God gave us brains and a yetzer tov. One needs to be intelligent about things.
Yes, I don’t deny that a woman who has spent years of her life involved with couples is bound to have encountered horrible situations that may have begun at a Shabbas meal, but that’s just my point: this isn’t the sort of thing we have the right to judge based on a perceived “majority” or “percentage.” Every case is different, and every Shabbas guest is different. Again: God gave us brains for a purpose, and He also assigned us the mitzvah of hachnosas orchim.
I sometimes fear: how far will we forbid every action outside of learning for fear of encountering the opposite sex? Maybe we should never visit our rebbeim or roshei yeshiva because their wives or daughters might be home. Maybe we shouldn’t shop for Shabbas because women might be there. Maybe we shouldn’t let our daughters invite their friends over or, chas v’shalom, host B’nos in our houses because, you know, girls.
There is nothing wrong with a personal geder or two–we are all entitled and encouraged to make them. I only bristle when people attempt to impose their personal gedarim upon world Jewry.July 21, 2011 12:43 am at 12:43 am #788245fix-it-upMember
This has become so out of hand.
Ezhar-firstly, to conversation prior to intimacy, i asked an extremely riable source hu doesnt want me to reveal name bec there mite be differeing opinions. When he hrd this he simply began to laugh and the though. Wolf, back me up.
Whatrutalkingabout-Naive? I dont think so. Having a reason to trust because I unlike others apparently see a loyalty in my husband? perhaps.
After this post I do see both sides, just as there are 2 sides in any scenario. However, lets not overdue things.July 21, 2011 3:05 am at 3:05 am #788246oomisParticipant
Did the three malachim who came to Avraham Avinu, sleep over? I know they pretended to eat the meal Sara prepared, but I didn’t know they stayed over – I thought they left immediately to complete their missions.July 21, 2011 9:02 am at 9:02 am #788247jmj613Participant
we didnt have guests right in the beginning of our marriage. we live in a rather small town when it comes to jiddishkeit and bh we never had a problem with any of the friends couples my wife invited. though i am less of a socialguy then my wife is still neither she nor me or the guests developed anything for anyone. i am not saying its ok or good or bad. it probably depends on each of the individuals involved. i just wanna add one thing: i have seen among those guests that we had how degrading couples spoke to each other. if that happens infront of the hosts how more terrible it must be when they are alone…July 21, 2011 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #788248yichusdikParticipant
Reading this thread, I have to ask, as I have on other topics – have we no confidence in the mosdos that two generations of gedolim were moser nefesh to create to revive torah after the Shoah? Are we to assume with a geder like this that we and our children have learned nothing in the yeshivos and seminaries we built and sent them to? Do we assume our investment of time and money and tears and sweat in their education was a waste of time? Because assuming that people will not draw upon the temimus and yashrus we infuse their lives with through their teachers and rebbeim is just that. An assumption it is all for naught.. And I reject that. I have too much respect for those who built our mosdos. I have too much respect for parents who were moser nefesh and always provided a good example for their children. If one want’s to make a personal cheshbon hanefesh that he or she cannot handle the situation – then make the decision for yourself, and then ask a rov to guide you to a point where you can safely participate in your community friends, and family life without worry. But consider the efforts of all kinds that went in to making you a ben or bas Torah. Do you really believe they were of no use at all?July 22, 2011 2:16 am at 2:16 am #788249popcornMember
About 2 years ago there was this very question posed to
Yael Respler in her column in the Jewish press about young couples going out to dinner together etc…She said
“it was not a good idea” and expounded on it. Since she
is a family therapist, I’m assuming that she had personally counseled Frum couples who were in such a situation where something might’ve happened.July 22, 2011 2:27 am at 2:27 am #788250shlishiMember
And Yael Respler is modern orthodox. So this idea that its not a good idea clearly cuts across ideological lines. She is also a therapist that deals with shalom bayis issues, giving her much credibility on this issue.July 22, 2011 2:33 am at 2:33 am #788251mikehall12382Member
Shlishi…I can’t believe you respect anything MO…
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