December 18, 2011 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #601179
Is it the right thing to make a family chanukah party when the cousins are getting older. Meaning – there would be a yeshiva bochur at the age of 16 and his cousin a girl age 17. What do you think?December 18, 2011 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #910918honoluluMember
there is absolutely nothing wrong- no said they have to sit and shmooze with each other but what is wrong with a family party!December 18, 2011 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #910919
they shouldn’t shmoze, but how’s it different than a guest?December 18, 2011 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #910920aries2756Participant
Personally I think it is a great idea to invite the family and let each family decide for themselves whether they will allow or whether they feel it is proper for their older kids to come or not. Families should be able to get together and cousins should know each other. Wouldn’t it be great if cousins would even redt shiduchim for each other?December 18, 2011 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #910921outsider4321Member
Yes. You cant keep yeshiiva guys or bais yaakov girls shielded forever. The best lesson you can teach them is that they are family and yes its to be around female/ male family. Do you really feel that its inappropriate for cousins to have any communtcation with thier oppsite gender family?December 18, 2011 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #910922always runs with scissors fastParticipant
all depends on how “Frum” you want to be. Most ultra orthodox would not mix a seuda/party. When we have guests, I make a separate table in the kitchen for the women.
IT is better, no doubt. You are putting up fences where the yetzer hara is trying to get in. And thats good.December 18, 2011 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #910923
Well, I know of a family that is very big. For the party they would rent a hall and even have a mechitza. I’m referring to a party hosted by a grand-father or you can say great-grand-father, age 98. He even has great grandchildren in the teens.December 18, 2011 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #910924popa_bar_abbaParticipant
For my family, I think it is appropriate. If someone else wants to be more machmir than me, I can understand that. (Unless it is one of my siblings- then I bite off their head.)December 18, 2011 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #910925soliekMember
are you kidding me…seriously?! is this thread a joke? if my family is having a party and my cousins are there you bet ill be talking to them regardless of age or genderDecember 18, 2011 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #910926
are you kidding me…seriously?! is this thread a joke? if my family is having a party and my cousins are there you bet ill be talking to them regardless of age or gender
What do you mean, why isn’t your cousin or second cousin different then any other girl in the street?December 18, 2011 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #910927yentingyentaParticipant
whats wrong with getting together w/ family? my male cousins who are more yeshivish dont converse with the females other than their mother, sisters, wife, grandmother etc. the ones that are not as yeshivish talk to the females. and the males who are younger i don’t think even notice the difference! PU-LEASE poeple. if my cousin comes to say hi how ya doing, i’m gonna talk to him. naturally, am i going to spend more time w/ the cousins my age and gender? yes of course. but i don’t have to pretend men don’t exist.
have fun at your chanukah party and all works out in the endDecember 18, 2011 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #910928
My kids (all teens) will be a Channukah party with their cousins of the opposite genders as well. Yes, I know that I’m a perfect example of a menuval.
The WolfDecember 18, 2011 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #910929BowwowParticipant
I would think it was o.k. as long as the dreidel spinning was done in different groups.December 18, 2011 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #910930Shticky GuyParticipant
If its a family gathering then its fine cause seeing as their fathers will also be there, the daughters will for sure be covering their faces, in which case it makes it beseder for the male cousins to attend…December 19, 2011 12:27 am at 12:27 am #910931insuranceguyMember
Oy ! RBSO. Please help! What happened to yiddishkite ? What happens to the normalcy of this beautiful religion. It’s questions like these that make you shake you head and ask how did it even come to this.December 19, 2011 12:35 am at 12:35 am #910932
insurance: To the contrary. It is questions like this that helps one realize the holiness of our people. I guarantee none of your gentile neighbors have such questions, how to insure the proper separation of the genders. Regardless of what the answer is (yes or no), it is certainly a most legitimate question.December 19, 2011 12:35 am at 12:35 am #910933apushatayidParticipant
In my family they will,December 19, 2011 1:20 am at 1:20 am #910934insuranceguyMember
Pass fan, no it isnt . It’s questions like this that our grandparents and great parents would never had asked. It’s insane.December 19, 2011 1:24 am at 1:24 am #910935
If our grandparents didn’t ask, it is only because they knew the answer. And the answer may very well have been in the negative.December 19, 2011 1:26 am at 1:26 am #910936☕️coffee addictParticipant
Is the girl frum? (you didn’t say beis yaakov girl however you said yeshiva bochur),December 19, 2011 2:18 am at 2:18 am #910937amichaiParticipant
we go to cousins, parties, bar-mitzva’s , weddings, and the cousins and us aunts and uncles all have a great time seeing and speaking with one another. it’s especially healthy when a child who is not exactly in the same place keeping halacha, comes and still feels welcome and warm in family get togethers.December 19, 2011 2:45 am at 2:45 am #910938Think firstMember
Hakol l’fi the family practice and ur comfort level with it.
But its beautiful to ask a question like this.December 19, 2011 1:06 pm at 1:06 pm #910939zahavasdadParticipant
In past generations and among many Chassidim today marrying your cousin was considered optimum and the best choice.
In the last 50 years or so, Marrying your cousin is almost considered incest, people are almost disgusted by the whole idea of cousins marrying (1st cousins marrying in New York IS Legal).
Most people are so repelled by the idea.December 19, 2011 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #910940cherrybimParticipant
“Most people are so repelled by the idea.”
You mean most amaratzim are repelled by the idea. They would feel the same with an uncle marrying a niece.December 19, 2011 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #910941real-briskerMember
Rule #1 – To figure out if a thread/poster is a Troll: If the OP is a brand new member, just created for a topic that would catergorize under a troll.December 19, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #910942mikehall12382MemberDecember 19, 2011 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #910943A Heimishe MomParticipant
In my, very large, family experience, I say let them do as they wish! Those that don’t want to mingle will gravitate into single-gender groups and members of the opposite gender will leave them alone. Those that are more comfortable getting to know their cousins will do so. (Those are usually the vocal, opinionated ones who tend to dominate the conversation. They need as large an audience as they can get.:) )
Most folks that I know look on first cousins in terms of the “ew” factor and wouldn’t seriously consider a shidduch with one of them.December 19, 2011 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #910944✡onegoal™Participant
Wolf- Yes, now you’re mamesh a menuval and a mechalel shabbos: )
I don’t see anything wrong with it, you are all family.December 19, 2011 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #910945Shticky GuyParticipant
an uncle marrying a niece
That is a much more extreme case and usually implies that they are of similar age so more like cousins anyway.
I know of a case where this happened. You can look at it in many ways: the choson who was the youngest of a very large family, married his niece (his oldest brother’s daughter) who was his age. So (a) His brother became his father in law!! (Can he still call him by his first name?) and (b) looking at it from his parents viewpoint, their son married their granddaughter making their oldest son into their mechutan, and when pg the young couple have kids, they are both their grandchildren and great grandchildren simultaneously. The choson’s siblings (kallah’s uncles & aunts) become her brothers/sisters in law, while the kallah’s siblings (choson’s nieces/nephews) become his brothers/sisters in law. What a mess!December 19, 2011 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #910946
First cousins marrying is somewhat common in some kehilos.December 20, 2011 3:07 am at 3:07 am #910947oomisParticipant
IMO, one of the BEST ways to give boys and girls the practice they need in being socially comfortable in speaking with each other, is at these family get togethers, under parental supervision, but nonetheless in each other’s company a sufficient amount of time to actually have a normal conversation..December 20, 2011 3:24 am at 3:24 am #910948mewhoParticipant
please, family is family. no one is saying dance together, jsut be able to talk to your cousins that you have grown up with.December 20, 2011 3:35 am at 3:35 am #910949
You mean most amaratzim are repelled by the idea. They would feel the same with an uncle marrying a niece.
And a 90 year old man with a 13 year old girl… also perfectly fine l’halacha and yet would rate high on the “ick” factor of most people.
Just because a marriage is perfectly valid halachically doesn’t mean that it can’t “ick” one out. And just because it does, that doesn’t mean that s/he is an am haaretz.
The WolfDecember 20, 2011 3:36 am at 3:36 am #910950
Wolf- Yes, now you’re mamesh a menuval and a mechalel shabbos: )
I fail to see what chillul Shabbos has to do with this topic.
The WolfDecember 20, 2011 3:44 am at 3:44 am #910951
Just because someone thinks something is”icky”, doesn’t make it wrong in any way.December 20, 2011 4:12 am at 4:12 am #910952mddMember
WM, you are wrong: an old man is not allowed to marry a young woman and an old woman is not allowed to marry a young man.December 20, 2011 5:04 am at 5:04 am #910953
mdd: Thanks for that. Is that halacha brought in shulchan aruch? Or where? And how old is “young” and how old is “old”, as it pertains to this halacha?December 20, 2011 5:29 am at 5:29 am #910954✡onegoal™Participant
Wolf- I don’t know if you noticed the little smiley at the end but I put it there because it was a joke. You mentioned that what you do makes you a menuval, thus stating a not true negative trate of yours, so I thought it would be funny to add the other not true negative trate you stated in another thread. It was a bad joke, I should have refrained. If you were offended I apologize.December 20, 2011 9:04 am at 9:04 am #910955old manParticipant
The Chasam Sofer was 52 when he married a 24 year old.December 20, 2011 1:51 pm at 1:51 pm #910956mddMember
Passfan, Even HaEzer 2:9. What’s the psshat in Chasam Sofer — I don’t know, assuming that old man’s information is correct.December 20, 2011 2:16 pm at 2:16 pm #910957Raphael KaufmanMember
In “der heim” it was quite common for older men to have young wives, often their second or third, because women’s life expectency was much lower than men’s. The reason was that it was not uncommon for women to die in childbirth, R’L, or from associated infections.
P.S. this might have been less of an issue in the Austro-Hungarian Empire where living conditions for Jews was better than in the Russian Empire.December 20, 2011 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #910958☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I know people (not chassidish) who married their cousins (and so did their spouses).December 20, 2011 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #910959old manParticipant
Sorry, I have to correct an error I made. The Chasam Sofer was only 50 at the time. His bride was 22 at the time. They had ten children together. She also had a famous father.December 20, 2011 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #910960ItcheSrulikMember
To quote a chavrusa I once had: It is muttar to sell your 6-year-old daughter to a 65-year-old abusive ???? ???? but if you do it you are still a rasha and you will still burn.December 20, 2011 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #910961TheGoqParticipant
I thought on Chanuka we play spin the dreidel not spin the bottle.December 20, 2011 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #910962a maminParticipant
Zehavasdad: Where is your acceptance of others who don’t agree with your beliefs?December 20, 2011 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #910963
ItcheSrulik: And you would be a rasha to marry your daughter to an abusive 18 year old. Don’t mix that up with age. Marrying your daughter to a normal 18 year old or a normal 65 year old has the same halachic status with neither one being inherently wrong.
mdd: Can you please summarize what Even HaEzer says on it? Does it specify ages? Otherwise, what are the ages that are considered wrong, according to S”A?December 20, 2011 4:28 pm at 4:28 pm #910964zahavasdadParticipant
Actually my Great Grandmother and Great Grandfather were cousins, but that was a different time
Today most would not do itDecember 20, 2011 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #910965real-briskerMember
I have no idea. I don’t know what you want me to do./strong>December 20, 2011 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #910968soliekMember
by the way, to address whoever it was who asked me why my cousin would be different from any other girl id be at a party with…i would do exactly the same thing with any girl i knew. i would be shomer negia, but i would not ignore her…i would talk to her because that is what human beings do…
“why my cousin would be different from any other girl id be at a party with”
im gonna head that off because i know someone is gonna say something. i dont make a habit of going to parties at which there are girls who arent family…hypothetically speaking if a couple of families we’re friends with got together and their daughters were there i would talk to them…thats what i meant.
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