Crazy Shidduch Story

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  • This topic has 154 replies, 47 voices, and was last updated 12 years ago by bpt.
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  • #683676
    truthsharer
    Member

    A few things.

    Firstly, most chaverims don’t have single men.

    Secondly, fixing a stuck steering wheel takes approximately 6 seconds.

    Changing a flat takes a lot longer.

    Contrary to MM and others, there is nothing weird with making small talk when you’re with someone for 20 minutes or more. (You do it on a date.)

    #683677

    If this girl whose tire was fixed is the “use a shadchon” type for her dating experiences then why did she agree to go out for a schmooze with him—then is would make sense that she would say, I don’t date like this, I’ll be happy to get a shadchon involved and we can go from there?

    #683678
    Poster
    Member

    truthsharer, “Firstly, most chaverims don’t have single men.”

    well, u cant tell if he is married or not so its a 50 50 chance just like the guy on the highway that stopped.

    “Contrary to MM and others, there is nothing weird with making small talk when you’re with someone for 20 minutes or more. (You do it on a date.) “

    A date is the right place and timing for a girl and boy to shmooze/chat etc… On the highway with someone random is not the proper setting.

    #683679
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    OK, perhaps someone can clarify something for me here, because I’m totally confused on one point:

    I think we can all agree (can we?) that a single person talking with a member of the opposite gender for the sake of shidduchim is permitted, correct? After all, that’s what happens on dates all the time.

    However, if someone who is in the shidduch parsha just happens to meet someone of the opposite gender that they think they might have an interest in, why shouldn’t the “small talk” be permitted? After all, how else is s/he supposed to determine that this person is/isn’t a potential match?

    Or is a shadchan the *only* way to meet someone and if you happen to come across someone in “real life,” you just have to forget it?

    The Wolf

    #683680

    “I once went with my friend to the ice cream store (before i got married) and when we got back to her car she couldnt get it to start. We called Chaveirim and they sent a guy down, we showed him the car, apparently the steering wheel was locked, he got the car to start. We thanked him and he left. The next day my friend sent a check to chaveirim, mentioned the story and that was it! The guy didnt call her to say thank you, for her thank you. That would have been absurd! We didnt think of small talk with the boy while he was fixing the car either! We didnt call to thank him personally. The Hakoras Hatov was there, but in a very modest way. What is this with boys and girls that are so friendly and comfortable with opposite genders. I think it is the Yetzer harah, and he is laughing!”

    Phyllis, aside from the obvious differences between your story and the one this thread was started about, there is so much that I find disturbing about your post that I don’t know where to begin. I’ll just say that we all need to be don lecaf zechus (sp). There is no reason to assume that they were following their yetzer harah, assume they were just being polite and thought that their meeting was a sign from Hashem. Just b/c your such a good person that you would never talk to a boy in this manner, even though you could have made a chillul hashem yourself (I’ll assume of course that you did not) does not mean you should hold everyone else to your standards, or even that your standards are proper.

    #683681
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    BS”D

    WolfishMusings:

    That is exactly the “Machlokes” between the shaddchan & the OP. Is one allowed to talk/date/get married outside the oversight of a shaddchan.

    It seems to me that this is similar to the story with the storm, where after the person is nifter in the storm he complains to Hashem “But I Had Bitachon!”; and Hashem answers that I sent you a boat, helicopter, etc. but you didn’t take it.

    The shidduch crisis is also a “storm”, and when Hashem sends someone (boy or girl) your way, you are best off taking His help.

    #683682
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    So, I’m curious, according to the side that a shadchan is required, is my marriage kosher b’dieved since I didn’t use a shadchan? 🙂 Or do I need to divorce her, register with a shadchan and date her again?* 🙂

    The Wolf

    * In reality, we’re still dating anyway… we never stopped. Why let a wedding get in the way of a good dating relationship? 🙂

    #683683
    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    Poster; I am not implying C”V that it was any less of a Chesed.

    I am however, noting the distinction, in that he was a volunteer, thus expecting

    and anticipating the possibility of his day being interrupted by a call to help someone in a jam. This would also make his obligation to help extensively greater,

    as this is exactly what he volunteered for, as opposed to the Bochur who was

    driving home from yeshiva. Perhaps he was exhausted and wanted to go home to sleep.

    Nevertheless, he stops off to help these yidden. Do you think they noticed him driving by? I dont think so. Maybe He should’ve just kept on driving, not letting his Yetzer Horah put him in such a situation!! For some reason everyone thinks He should’ve

    stopped. But why? Maybe it was the yetzer horah’s plan.

    some of you contradict yourselves with the comments you post.

    How do you know the extent of the conversation they struck up.

    Perhaps it was done in the most appropriate manner?

    who said he was shmoozing with TWO girls as you say?

    The OP says “they made small talk.” Do you know what that is?

    You see he was only interested in ONE of the girls. This is further proof

    that he was pursuing this as a potential shidduch.

    The OP states “they have a nice conversation and agree to meet for a coffee.”

    Is this not how many shidduchim come to pass?

    Boy calls girl, they have a conversation which leads to the boy to choose a

    meeting place. Do we really need the shadchan to play broken telephone,

    repeating, ” he said wednesday night at 7:30,” now it’s Glatt Kosher.

    For now the shadchan has Kashered the words so that they are pure,

    empty from any hopes of a large payoff, or false interpretation of the boys words.

    you state “A “Thank you very much” should have sufficed on both ends.”

    Are you saying the boy should of ignored his interest in this

    girl that he met through Hashgocha Protis?

    #683685
    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    WolfishMusings; If your still dating it’s not too late to get a shadchan involved.

    Start saving up some money. that should make your marriage kosher L’katchiloh.

    For an extra fee you have the option of making it Mehadrin min haMehadrin.

    Chanukah is coming up, you might want to splurge.

    #683686
    mybat
    Member

    Okay, so let’s assume that the guy in the story stopped to change the tire because he saw a girl that he liked, what’s the problem? He wants to go out for the purpose of MARRIAGE. Not to play around.

    #683687
    haifagirl
    Participant

    Wolf: I think we can all agree

    You’ve got to be kidding.

    #683688
    oomis
    Participant

    “* In reality, we’re still dating anyway… we never stopped. Why let a wedding get in the way of a good dating relationship? 🙂 “

    LOL, my husband says the same thing. In fact we go out for a regular “date night” (more like “date lunch” as he no longer works on Fridays now,so we go out for lunch and share a bagel and tuna). It’s really important for a couple, no matter how long they are married, to treat each other as boyfriend and girlfriend.

    #683689
    mybat
    Member

    True oomis and wolf! Its important for a married couple to try and have dates and to go out regularly.

    #683690
    telegrok
    Member

    One of the posters hit the nail on the head – we have no idea what sort of “small talk” ensued as he was changing the tire, but having watched this boy grow up and having known his parents for many years I can guess that ANY aspect of his conversation was far more polite and less intrusive than the questions that seem to be de riguer in the world of shadchanus today – so, I suspect that he did not ask the girl how much money her father makes; or her dress size; or whether all aspects of her physical condition are healthy; etc. Most likely, “small talk” concerned the weather or how tightly the lug nuts were spun on the wheel.

    I suppose, based on some of the comments in this thread, that we are headed quickly toward a kol koreih that will forbid girls from driving cars without “run flat” tires i.e., those tires that can run even when they have a puncture), so that they never c’v find themselves talking to a strange boy who might stop to help them.

    But since I started this mess, I suppose I owe an update: I caught up with his mother after tehillim last night, and here is the “rest of the story” – he decided not to go out with the girl, because he does not want to be a source of machlokes between the her and the shadchanis, and he is also afraid the shadchanis could shter his chances in the future if he gets on her bad side. He asked his aunt to let the girl know, because he figures that additional personal contact at this point will only make things worse. And, he did not feel right about accepting the gift certificate, but thought that it be (a) rude to return the gift, and (b) cause more trouble, so he is giving it to the menahel of the yeshiva ketana down the block from where he changed the tire. The aunt offered to keep her ears open in the future, because the girl’s family lives down the street from her.

    And now for post-script that will delight some readers and distress others: motzei Shabbos the aunt calls “Dovid” on his cell and asks him for two favors – (1) pull the suitcases from the attic because she and the uncle are going away for the thanksgiving, and (2) eat some of the Shabbos leftovers because she does not want to drei her kop finding space in the freezer while she is trying to pack. So, Dovid finishes his usual motzei Shabbos basketball game with his friends and heads over to his aunt’s house. He pulls the suitcases, and then goes to the kitchen where he transforms Shabbos lunch into a sandwich. The doorbell rings. The aunt shouts, “I’m coming,” and Dovid, being the mensch, goes to answer the door. Of course, of all people, it has to be the girl, who is coming by to pick up the keys because she is supposed to water the plants while the aunt and uncle are away. Awkward. Silence. Ensues.

    The aunt now comes to the door, looks at the girl, looks at Dovid (who, straight from his basketball game, is in gym clothes and, noch besser, holding a dripping chicken salad sandwich), and looks back at the girl, and being the koch lefel that she is, raises an eyebrow and asks, “Coffee?”

    (Sof maiseh, Dovid quickly excused himself and joined his uncle in the next room; when his aunt gave the “all clear,” the uncle accused the aunt of manufacturing the meeting; she responded to effect that if was interested in making a shidduch, she wouldn’t have had Dovid answer the door in a filthy camp t-shirt).

    I guess now we’ll all accuse Dovid of being “in the wrong” because he (1) didn’t change after leaving the gym to go to his aunt’s house; (2) answered the door without using the peep-hole; (3) carried food from the kitchen without a plate.

    #683691
    Moe Green
    Member

    WolfishMusings

    OK, perhaps someone can clarify something for me here, because I’m totally confused on one point:

    if someone who is in the shidduch parsha just happens to meet someone of the opposite gender that they think they might have an interest in, why shouldn’t the “small talk” be permitted? After all, how else is s/he supposed to determine that this person is/isn’t a potential match?

    Or is a shadchan the *only* way to meet someone and if you happen to come across someone in “real life,” you just have to forget it?

    The Wolf

    What if I just happen to meet someone of the opposite gender who is very nice and interesting and I find attractive, but this person just happens to be a mamzer/mamzeres (literally, i.e. someone who is forbidden from marrrying within the general Jewish population)?

    The mamzeres would not be a potential match, but what would stop me from “falling for” the person while I was changing her tire? This is a bad situation. It might be hard to break up such a relationship. It would be better not to have met in the first place.

    A mamzer is an extreme example, as most families would frown upon their child “falling for” a person completely kosher to marry but who is outside of a clearly defined band (be it narrow or wide). Case in point – don’t you think that the Montagues would have been much happier overall if their son had agreed to only talk to girls suggested by a matchmaker?

    #683692
    haifagirl
    Participant

    And if the Montagues hadn’t interfered in their son’s choice of mate, don’t you think there would have been a happier ending?

    #683698
    ChanieE
    Participant
    #683699
    truthsharer
    Member

    Hashem just had the girl and the guy meet again.

    But rules are rules, so these two can’t date.

    #683700
    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    telegrok; Thanks a lot for the interesting op. Thanks even more for the update,

    this story gets funnier and cuter as it progresses, and I for one appreciate the fun

    you poke at the one dimensional view of some ppl when it comes to shidduchim.

    #683701
    oomis
    Participant

    I think DOvid should ask the girl out if he likes her. It sounds liek Hashem was the shadchan here.

    #683702
    HaQer
    Member

    Mezonos Maven wrote

    A second problem, as slightly alluded to by Mayan Dvash, is that she is trying to date two guy simultaneously.

    No, she is not. She is about to be redt to the chosheveh bochur. That doesn’t mean that she is already dating him. She is worried that if Dovid doesn’t work out than she would want to date chosheveh bochur next. It does not sound like she is currently dating anyone.

    True, but as bein_hasdorim pointed out, this story isn’t just shmoozing for no reason. For the purpose of marriage we allow boys and girls to talk. You agree that we allow a boy and girl to go on a date after a shadchan has set them up, so why not allow them to set themselves up? Why would this be any worse? these are two marriageable age yidden who are looking to find their bashert, and Hashem puts them in this situation. Perhaps Hashem is being the shadchan here as is even more evident from the follow up that was posted.

    As The Wolf wrote:

    I think we can all agree (can we?) that a single person talking with a member of the opposite gender for the sake of shidduchim is permitted, correct? After all, that’s what happens on dates all the time.

    However, if someone who is in the shidduch parsha just happens to meet someone of the opposite gender that they think they might have an interest in, why shouldn’t the “small talk” be permitted? After all, how else is s/he supposed to determine that this person is/isn’t a potential match?

    Or is a shadchan the *only* way to meet someone and if you happen to come across someone in “real life,” you just have to forget it?

    Exactly. There is nothing wrong with just meeting someone and trying to see if it will work out. Obviously at some point you will have to look into things a little more (as “moe green” pointed out, what if they are not halachically allowed to marry each other) but this can be done through the aunt without an “official shadchan” getting involved. I think that everything that has happened until now is completely kosher and if they want to continue, the aunt should be involved as the shadchan.

    #683703
    HaQer
    Member

    I think that Stranded should tell “big shadchan” that she is not interested in being one of her “clientele” if these are her rules. She shouldn’t feel a necessity to use this particular shadchan. The boy seems like a nice guy who would make a great husband and she should go for it, no matter what the velt thinks of it. When they are happily married the velt will forget and life will go on. And for those who don’t forget, she shouldn’t worry about them, they are not the type of people she is interested in impressing anyway.

    This girl has a chiyuv to do proper hishtadlus to find her bashert. The husband that the girl is looking for doesn’t have to be “Chosheveh Bochur” and if it is meant to be, then another shadchan will suggest it, or perhaps this “chosheveh Bochur” will pass by the next time she gets a flat tire…

    #683704
    Mayan_Dvash
    Participant

    HaQer, that would be a great thing to do, if she can just tell the shadchan “you’re being very unreasonable, feif dich uhn” but I don’t want to think of the repercussions.

    ;

    #683705

    why are we so nervous about the “wrath of the shadchan”??? Isn’t she supposed to be helping the girls and boys get married?????? Why does she (as a profession, it could be a guy) have such control over the generation? As MD said “I dont want to think of the repercussions” – she is doing a disfavor if we (hypothetically speaking…all those on the market) all have to curb our interests ect for a shadchan??? Yes, they are there to find shidduchim, but what about in days yonder when they would be someone’s aunt/uncle, former teacher, Rav…? are those shadchanim now “assur”???

    #683706
    telegrok
    Member

    The aunt redt the shidduch!!! There was some friction with the shadchanis, but I do not know what it was; Dovid’s father is fine with everything – his only concern (generally) is that the boys are able to support their families after they get married (the father’s me’halach is that the boys are on their own after sheva brochos, but he’ll pay his daughters’ tuition through graduate school because he never wants c’v a situation where his daughter cannot provide for herself) – since Dovid gets his degree in June, the timing is fine (but we should not get ahead ourselves here, should we).

    “Stranded’s” parents are fine, since they trust the aunt – I’m not sure what is going on with the shadchanis, but I think part of it is that she tried very hard to “place” the girl (family is fine but I think her parents were clear that they simply cannot offer post-marriage support since they still have other kids at home).

    OK, I’ll stop being a yenta now (they’ve gone out twice).

    #683707
    dunno
    Member

    OMG!!! Keep us posted!!

    #683708
    mybat
    Member

    Telegrok

    That’s great!I hope everything works out for the best!!

    #683709
    bpt
    Participant

    I’m surprised no one asked the most vital question of all:

    Was Dovid carrying the sandwitch on China or plastic?

    #683710
    oomis
    Participant

    This entire thread is making my eyes bleed. What are we, in Kindergarten? The shadchanis’ ego was hurt??? What? A nice guy was helpful to a nice girl. If it should turn out that they want to date each other – they should, with or without someone’s intervention. It is nobody’s business, but their own, least of all a shadchan’s. And if that makes a girl un-redting-worthy for the future should this not work out, then the entire system needs a long overdue change. And certain Shadchanim could use some sensitivity training.

    #683711
    NY Mom
    Member

    Why do pple keep saying that they are going out without a shadchan? The aunt is the shadchan!

    I know of plenty of shidduchim that were made by amateur shadchanim – friends, family members, etc. It is ridiculous to say that they cannot date because their initial contact just happened to be the flat tire incident! Once they became aware of each other, they used a shadchan to set up the date – the boy’s aunt who just happened to be the girl’s neighbor. According to what telegrok has described, and as far as we know, nothing assur occurred here.

    I wish them hatzlochoh in finding their true zivugim, and if it just happens to be each other, they have a great story to tell their kids iy”H!

    Please keep us posted!

    #683712
    oomis
    Participant

    “and as far as we know, nothing assur occurred here. “

    And if the boy had simply asked her out, are you implying that would have been an ISSUR???? Maybe it would not have been religiously PC according to some people’s opinion, but it certainly is no aveira, and should not be thought of as such. What are we doing to our children’s happiness when we start viewing something innocent, pure, and for tachlis, as being forbidden solely because it did not go through a bona fide professional “yenta?”

    #683713
    NY Mom
    Member

    oomis1105: Do you think that is what I was implying?

    #683715
    oomis
    Participant

    NY MOM, perhaps I misunderstood your point, and if so, I AM sorry. But I did get the idea from what you posted that there was an implication that if he had acted on his own, somehow that WOULD be an issur. I may have misread between your lines.

    Of COURSE nothing assur occurred, based on what we were told. But even had he actually asked the girls out, THAT would not be assur either. And I really wish for the rest of the world to understand that there are many different ways for shidduchim to come about. As long as the intentions are honorable, we need to chill out a little and not expect everything to always be done through a shadchan, a rov, or even a friend. Sometimes Hashem is the ONLY shadchan and HE throws two people together in order to make that match, and the more we intervene in it, the more likely that things may not turn out so well.

    #683716
    Iknowyou
    Member

    Thats absolutely crazy!

    #683717
    oomis
    Participant

    I met my husband because Hashem sent him into my place of work at the right time for me to meet him. There was no human shadchan, I saw a real mensch who was ehrliche and aidel, and when he asked me out I agreed. We are married almost 33 years, and if you think that’s crazy, then that is your privilege. It is not the first nor the last time that people meet each other and realize they are right for each other, without anyone else interfering. Just because something is not done the way you are used to doing it, is not reason enough to call it “absolutely crazy.” These two young people met each other because she had a blowout on the side of the road and couldn’t change her tire. She saw a young man who was willing to stop and take the time to help a female in distress. How many frum guys might have stopped by a female on the road and continued to drive? None of us should ever be so sure of ourselves that we do not believe that Hashem makes things happen HIS way, for a reason.

    Had Moshe Rabbeinu not seen the Mitzri beating a Jew and killed him, which resulted in his being forced to flee for his life, he would never have found Tzipporah at the well in Midian. If Yaakov and Esav had not had their issues between them, Yaakov would have never left his home and found the mothers of Klal Yisroel. Who was the shadchan for Rabbi Akiva and Rachel? Certainly not Yenta, the Matchmaker! Not everything that you do not hold by, is crazy. it is just a different venue.

    #683718

    Wow, what a sad story- and what a missed opportunity!

    Imagine how many more acts of chesed would have/ would have/ might have been encouraged to happen, done by boys who heard this story!

    And how sad is it that neither the girl nor her parents dared to ignore the shadchan, who is after all in it at least partly for his own good.

    #683719
    haifagirl
    Participant

    Here’s what happens when people read the first couple posts and skip to the end:

    The aunt redt the shidduch!!! . . . they’ve gone out twice.

    followed by:

    Wow, what a sad story- and what a missed opportunity!

    #683720
    oomis
    Participant

    You’re right, haifagirl. But truthfully, not every post DOES get read, especially if there are many of them.

    #683721

    Actually, I feel that my point stands, irrelevant of the fact that this case may have worked out. The point is that this could easily have been a lost opportunity, and that presumably if this happened once, it happens other times, too, where the opportunity is lost.

    My father z”l used to say, “afilu az se gelungt zich a narishkeit, bleibt is a narishkeit” – If you do something stupid, even if it works out for you, it was still a stupid thing to do.

    The chesed and it’s happy ending should have been promoted as a segulah for a shidduch!

    #683722
    hud
    Member

    so whatever happened to them..?

    #683723
    happyOOTer
    Participant

    telegrok, please post an update, we want to know 🙂

    #683724
    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    Yes telegrok; I bought a new tie L’kovod the L’chaim IY”H.

    #683725
    bombmaniac
    Participant

    heres the way i see it. to go out of your way to talk to the opposite gender can be wrong. but here they just met! he’s sitting there changing a tire…what are they supposed to do? just ignore each other? picture for example youre at a friends house, and they have a sibling your age or around your age…are you supposed ignore any attempt at converstaion? thats just plain rude…the circumstances are such that its simply polite. as for the call, why not? a person gives you a gift, the polite thing is to call up and thank them same gender or not.

    we get so caught up in the avoiance of the opposite gender that we lose sight of basic decency. true to arbitrarily just walk up to someone of the opposite gender and strike up a conversation may be assur…but if youre in a situation where ignoring each other just makes it akward for the both of you…there is no reason not to talk…its just being polite. another example, is people who go to coed colleges. while they should try to minimize interaction with the opposite gender, its simply unavoidable! to ignore them would simply be rude.

    i think the bachur was just being polite, and that the shadchan just messed up a perfect opportunity

    #683726
    hud
    Member

    ok bombmaniac but we discussed all this already and we heard how they both WENT ON A DATE ALREADY. So lets just here an update please..

    #683727
    telegrok
    Member

    Maybe the mods should re-name this site “Yenta World News,” because of all the requests for an update.

    They’ve gone out twice, they’re supposed to go out again. The first date was supposed to be “quick coffee,” but it turned into two hours. I do not know where they went the second date. “Dovid” is being very quiet; his mother told me she asked him what he thought of the girl (I think we’ve named her “Stranded” here, right?) and he said, “I’ve asked her out again, that should say something, right?”

    “Stranded’s” story is a bit more complex – apparently she was usually going out with more “yeshivish” guys, guys who intend to spend a few years learning after marriage. “Dovid’s” plan is to get his degree in the spring and go to work (he goes to a morning seder and shiur, and college in the afternoon and night; he spends Sunday mornings in yeshiva). Stranded is also among the last of her friends to get married. Apparently, she was with some of them the other night and one of the other girls made a remark about Stranded’s “giving up” and “settling” for someone who is not “k’lei kodesh.” The remark really bothered Stranded (I heard this from Dovid’s mother, who heard it from the Aunt), who confided in the aunt (now the shadchanis) – but the Aunt asked Stranded, “Do you think he has good middos and values? Do you think he would be a good husband and father? And, most importantly, do you enjoy spending time with him?” At that point, Stranded began to cry and said that of all the boys she had been redt to, Dovid was the one with whom she felt she could be herself. And the aunt said, “So, nu?”

    So, the aunt saves the day once again –

    #683728
    oomis
    Participant

    If this shidduch is meant to be, I hope “stranded” will not let her FRIENDS decide for her whom she is best suited to marry. This is especially so because unfortunately, girls tend to leave many of their old friends in the dust after they get married, and then she could be REALLY stranded! Let her marry the person whom SHE deems right for herself, and let the others marry the full-time learners if that is what they desire.

    This entire coversation seems a bit premature, by the way.

    #683729
    rescue37
    Participant

    <<<Apparently, she was with some of them the other night and one of the other girls made a remark about Stranded’s “giving up” and “settling” for someone who is not “k’lei kodesh.”>>>

    Rabosai,

    We have just seen the crux of the shiduch crisis. It’s all about outwards perception and having to conform to what other people think.

    #683730
    mybat
    Member

    Wow! Stranded shouldn’t listen to her friends! If she likes the guy and feels comfortable with him she should do what’s best for herself!

    #683731
    bpt
    Participant
    #683732
    happyOOTer
    Participant

    “Stranded”‘s friends are the Yentas of the future… if they haven’t met Dovid (not suggesting they have ANY input in this matter) then they have no right to judge. They should be thrilled for Stranded!

    I am cheering for Stranded, cheering for Dovid, and cheering for the Aunt/Shadchan 🙂 If it’s b’shert, it’s b’shert! Hashem’s hand is in everything!!

    “so, nu?” I love it!!!

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