December 16, 2009 12:02 am at 12:02 am #683733hudMember
Ok correct me if I wrong but this is really starting to sound more like an outline for a new novel or s/t. Anyone else getting that impression? Honestly, I am definitaly hooked and if this story is true and taking place as we speak…lol well s/ people have more drama in their lives then I do apparentally. This situation is great food for thought and if this shidduch actually works out that would be wonderful but practically speaking-Why are we geting such specific info?..Are you allowed to give it out? Do they know/mind etc..? Just curious I guess and maybe I am nosy for asking this so I apolagize ahead of time if you find my opinion offensive. All I really want to know is- When’s the L’chaim?! Simcha’s e/o!:)December 16, 2009 2:51 am at 2:51 am #683734
I almost cried when I read telegrok’s last post…
The situation I’m in isn’t very different than the one posted here. Its being expected of me to marry a chushive boy who’ll be learning for a nice number of years. My friends, family, they all expect it of me. But since I came into the shidduchim world quite a bit later than the rest of my friends (was wating for my older sibling to get engaged) its been a long while since sem and I’m not this real type of girl I was couple of years ago… I feel like I’m faking myself… I’m not myself with those boys that are being introduced…
Perhaps (doubtfully) there’s a solution out there…?December 16, 2009 3:22 am at 3:22 am #683735youdontknowmeMember
“Perhaps (doubtfully) there’s a solution out there…?”
There is a very simple solution, do what makes you happy. Family and friends are important but if you live your life to please them you will be miserable.December 16, 2009 3:53 am at 3:53 am #683736baltashchisParticipant
That is why I believe ShidduchWorld was created. It was created so that all girls and boys out there who are really frum, could search for themselves. They see profiles, and then get a Shidduch World Shaddchan or their own Shaddchan to redd it for them. There is no charge. You gain that you are the one who decides if the boy/girl is for you. There is nobody to push you being that you chose it.December 16, 2009 3:58 am at 3:58 am #683737
Cheerful: Please be strong and do not give in to peer or family pressure to marry who THEY think you should marry. YOU are the only one who can know who is for you. And YOU will be the one to live with that person.
Why is it so terrible to look for someone who is a baal middos, an ehrliche Yid, but serves Hashem by working and being koveah itim laTorah?
You must tell your parents to please look for the type of person YOU NEED! I really feel for you. May the Ribono shel olam, the One who is m’shadaich all shidduchim, send you your zivug hagun b’karov!December 16, 2009 4:24 am at 4:24 am #683738mybatMember
Try telling your parents that you don’t really want a learning guy even though they think that you do. Hopefully they’ll listen to you and you’ll be able to go out with the type of guys that you are looking for.
Good luck!!:)December 16, 2009 5:18 am at 5:18 am #683739YW Moderator-42Moderator
Apparently, she was with some of them the other night and one of the other girls made a remark about Stranded’s “giving up” and “settling” for someone who is not “k’lei kodesh.”
I heard a story about a certain Rosh Yeshiva whose daughter was redt to a working boy. Her brothers tried to insist that, as the daughter of a Rosh Yeshiva, she should only go out with chosheve learning boys. The father said that as long as the boy will treat his daughter well and be a good ehrliche Jew who will build a Torah home, that is fine with him, he wasn’t interested in a boy for her just because he was known as the best learner in his Yeshiva.
btw, Stranded probably shouldn’t be talking about this with these friends at all. It’s fine, and probably even recommended, to talk about dating with a few friends but from this it sounds like all of her friends are gossiping about her dating life which isn’t right. Friends who make these type of comments are not the ones who she should be talking to about her dates.December 16, 2009 11:36 am at 11:36 am #683740thinking jewMember
mod 42: “he wasn’t interested in a boy for her just because he was known as the best learner in his Yeshiva.” there are many reasons to want a real serious learner for your daughter other than because he’s known to be the best. To be married to a real talmid chacham is a tremendous zechus (of course he also has to “treat his daughter well and be a good ehrliche Jew who will build a Torah home”)
EDITEDDecember 16, 2009 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #683741jewish and working 22Member
A person should find someone they like and the want to live with for the rest of their life.
Besides, in our times, how many of these bochurim learning are ever going to become “a real talmid chacham”?
EDITEDDecember 16, 2009 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #683742
I’m curious to know if Dovid and Stranded (I sure hope her next name is going to be Engaged)are following their life story here in the coffee room. If so, good luck to you both and hope your dating career is a short one (no matter who you both end up marrying).
CHEERFUL, ask your parents/friends whoever is “pressuring” you to make certain choices a question that you want them to answer honestly, with no “but…” as part of the answer. The question is this: “Do you want me to make a choice that will make ME happy?” Once they say yes, then say “good—do you trust that I can make good decisions for myself?” When they say yes, then say, “excellent, that is what I plan on doing when trying to find the person that I (emphasis on I) will be living with for the rest of my life, and I need your support on this. It will make an already difficult process much easier, and you will be doing a tremendous mitzvah by being the supportive role that I need. And, you will get tremendous nachas from me too.”
Give it a try and let us know how the conversation goes….I’d keep the dating details to yourself though—-seems like we have enough entertainment here with Dovid and Stranded.December 16, 2009 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #683743
BP Totty: Hear Hear! I second.December 16, 2009 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #683744
I really appreciate your strong words. And to everybody out there! Thanks for your support. Its so good to know there are people who care.
And to you Positive, its a little more complicated than that…
I can’t see myself bringing this issue up in an actual conversation. My parents and family don’t dream that I’d be happy with something else. It’ll be a total shock for them… Never mind the whole conversation. I first need to get the message across that I’m not at the point where they believe I am…
And to get such a conversation running would require lots of tact, thought AND courage. I can’t see myself doing it. Its a real tough situation…December 16, 2009 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #683745
I, too, wholeheartedly agree you there, BP Totty!December 16, 2009 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #683746
BP Totty: I’ll fourth.
Cheerful: It must seem like an insurmountable barrier. I remember being young and not feeling like I could stick up for myself. Do you have a trusted mentor, or other older relative or friend who you could go to to help tell your parents what you really want? Having some support in your corner could really help you approach this in a way that softens the blow for your parents but helps you get the point across. Better to stand up for yourself now than be miserable in an engagement or – worse – a marriage.
Hatzlacha!December 16, 2009 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #683747
Cheerful: I can’t see myself bringing this issue up in an actual conversation. My parents and family don’t dream that I’d be happy with something else. It’ll be a total shock for them… Never mind the whole conversation. I first need to get the message across that I’m not at the point where they believe I am…
And to get such a conversation running would require lots of tact, thought AND courage. I can’t see myself doing it. Its a real tough situation…
I don’t know you or your parents, but as a mother myself, I can say that I would want my children to be HAPPY with whomever they marry.
Do you think it will be better for you to keep dating the same type of guy and keep turning them down one by one? You said you were older already when you started dating because of older siblings. Please consider that as you move along in your dating career, you are not getting younger. How long are you going to keep up the facade? How much time will you allow to go by?
Keep in mind that 1) It is not really fair to boys you are dating to go out with them, if you know that it is not what you want; 2) Won’t it be painful and frustrating for your parents to keep sending you out on date after date, and wondering why no one is working out? 3) Will you just give in and accept a guy you are not really going to be happy with, just to make everyone else happy? Or will you eventually decide that you have to tell your parents that this is not what you want? Wouldn’t it be better to have that conversation NOW rather than in a year or two of pointless dating?
Just something to think about.December 16, 2009 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #683748
CHEERFUL–I’m with happyOOTer–please, go to a mentor, or someone who you confide in, who will be there for you, and is not nogeia b’davar. Someone who will be a support system, and will not judge the choices you want to make. Then they can help you have the courage to communicate, in slow increments that which you need to, in order to have your parents slowly come onto your page.
I don’t know your parents, but if we are assuming that they are balanced people, and are capable of altruism, then, although the process might be tough, eventually they will come around and be supportive. If they aren’t the “balanced type”, and make you fear sharing your true feeling, then a mentor and rov are the ones who can guide you in how to make the right decisions for yourself, and help you attempt to make your parents feel like they are being included.
Hashem has given you “gut feelings”, a cheshek for what you want for the future and the kind of home you want to build. These feelings should be taken seriously, because who you marry is one of the most important decisions you will make in your life.December 16, 2009 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #683749
90% of us married folks wrestled with doubts as to wether or not the person we were going to marry was “the right one”. And most of us turned to a parent or mentor for advise, but in the end, the descision needs to be yours, beacuse after the confetti stops falling its just you and Mr. Cheerful. If its a decision you are both enthusiastic about, you will both give it 110% effort, and make it work.
As for your parents (forget your friends / neighbors), speaking as a parent, as long as we are still talking 100% frum (color / kind of hat is irelevant), your parents WILL understand. Tell them what you really feel, and let Hashem do the rest.
PS – your real friends will come to terms with the decision that’s best for you, and the ones that don’t were not your friends to begin with (sorry, that’s the parent in me talking.. its hard to suppress all the time.)December 17, 2009 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #683750
hud is right, I should have used more discretion when posting
Cheerful – you need to have an honest conversation with you parents – it might be very difficult – parental expectations often drive children toward choices, some of them good, some of them not so good – but in this instance you really need to do what is best for you, and that means finding a shidduch who meets your needs, not the needs of your parents, or siblings, or friends – if you marry someone who does not meet your needs, you could c’v resenting him as time goes on, and that is a terrible way to live – BP Totty offers incredible wisdom in his posts – after the fanfare of the wedding is over, it is you and husband – is he someone you can live with, and is the life he wants to live consistent with the life you want to live?
Finding a mentor who can guide you through this process, as others have suggested, is a good idea – I speak from experience – a long time ago I was involved with someone very seriously – everyone was urging me to make a decision and take the plunge – I confided my true feelings in the rebbetzin, who I thought would say, “yes, do it” – and instead she said, “don’t do it – it’s too great a risk” – ending that relationship was one of the hardest things I ever did in my life, but it was one of the best things I did in my life, because I would have been miserable forever.
No spouse, husband or wife, is perfect – but you must find some harmony in the person with who you will be, and if your heart tells you the type of person is different than the type of boys to whom you are being redt, you need to share that with your parents – your gut feelings are very important, and you cannot ignore them –
I wish you the very best, and look forward to hearing that you broached a difficult conversation in a respectful manner with true kibud av va’em, but in a manner that leaves you at peace and ready to look forward, with happiness, to meeting your true zivug –
Mrs. “Grok”December 17, 2009 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #683751
And Leah Immainu was “expected” to marry Eisav. Sometimes you don’t marry who you are expected to, and it is a bracha (not to compare learning boys to Eisav C”V, just to use the concept).
And always be yourself. The endgame is not to get married to anyone, but to the right one for the real you. If someone fakes it, C”V that someone can just end up unmarried when the truth comes out.
B’hatzlacha.December 17, 2009 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #683752Mayan_DvashParticipant
I am learning Shmuel A and the Maggid Shiur (Rav Aron Chaim Lapidoth) mentioned (I forgot the source) that the Navi calls Dovid before he was Melech as “Admoni” same adjective lehavdil to Eisav. He pointed out the contrasts between the two. THen he said that Dovid should have been Yaakov Avinu’s twin. In that case, Leah would have married Dovid. THat’s why she was crying so much.
;December 17, 2009 5:23 pm at 5:23 pm #683753
Like the connection. Not necessarily Dovid HaMelech himself (who was supposed to be when he was, and was given 70 years only by Adam), but Esav could have been someone like David. The potential was there (which explains why Yitzchak wanted to give Esav the Brachos).
Thank you.December 17, 2009 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #683754oomisParticipant
We always asked the question in our chumash shiur, “Was it possible that Yitzchak Avinu, possibly the holiest person ever (because he was pure Yerai Hashem, and a chosen korban)with all his nevuah could not discern that Esav was evil?” The answer my rov gave, is a real maasei Avos siman L’banim, in that we may believe that he was well aware of his son being off the derech, but he had hopes that by giving him the brachos, they would become a self-fulfilling prophecy for him, and he would do teshuva. The idea is for parents to never give up on even the worst child. there is always a potential for good, and since Esav was the role model for kibud Av, there was always hope for him.December 17, 2009 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #683755ChopsMember
I think that aperson should sit down with a piece of paper and figure out what expectations they want when they are married, and with that in mind what kind of guy they want to marry. I think that this is one of the principal reasons why so many marraiges are unfortunately unraveling. You must have communication with the people around you, and a person should be open minded, but with knowledge of what you want in your future. Kollel is not for everyone. When I was single I was very pressured into marrying Kollel. I stood firm, and explained to my parents and mentors, that I was scared of having all the pressures of parnassa on my shoulders as a woman. I really admire the kollel women who are amazing mothers, teachers, housewifes and primary breadwinners. But not all woman are cut out for this. Of course parnasa is from Hashem and there is no garantee,but it should be known that kollel is a certain way of life and it is not for everyone. Nobody has the right to pressure anyone into a way of life that is not for them. We are all in this world to serve Hashem and to do our purpose in life, whether our husband is kovea ittim or learning full time. May Hashem help everyone to have mazal and an easy time finding their bashert.December 17, 2009 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #683756Mayan_DvashParticipant
GAW: I am only quoting what I heard at a shiur, which was cited from a Rishon (or Achron?)
;December 17, 2009 9:20 pm at 9:20 pm #683757
Chops, very well said.December 17, 2009 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #683758oomisParticipant
Chops, you are right about good communication, but that is unfortunately a skill that is rarely taught in Yeshivas these days.December 18, 2009 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #683759
Sad to think that a daughter does not feel comfortable telling her parents what she is really feeling and what she really wants in a shidduch. It may not be what the parents expected for her, but she is looking for a frum, ehrliche Yid, after all. So sad she feels like there is “no solution” and “can’t see myself bringing this issue up in an actual conversation” with her parents.
It should be a wake up call to ALL parents to make sure that the lines of communication are open with their children! And that they are not imposing their will onto their children, especially in the area of shidduchim.
Parents: Let’s all have that conversation with our children. “I am here for you! I want you to feel comfortable sharing anything that’s bothering you…”December 18, 2009 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #683760
Unfortunately, not all parents have learned how to communicate effectively with their children–If their child is in shidduchim and is afraid to communicate what is their own sincere wish for the future, that shows a lack of many years of working on lines of communication.
It is naive for people to think that all parents can wake up one day and realize “oh, my child is an adult now and is going to make adult decisions, and we as parents have an achrayus to be supportive”. That takes years of investing in ones child altruistically.
Especially when it comes to shidduchim, years of hard work and open lines of sharing and communication should already be in place.December 20, 2009 2:02 am at 2:02 am #683761
To Cheerful; I sincerely feel for you in the situation you’re in.
I knew a girl with a similar situation. She didn’t communicate
with her parents till it was too late.
I have an idea that might help you convey your feelings to your parents
in a subtle way. Tell them you had a conversation with a friend of yours.
Tell them your friend has a friend that poured out her heart to her in cofidence.
Tell them she said that her parents, siblings and friends are expecting her to
marry a learning boy. She however is not looking for that type of boy,
her parents and friends are clueless to this fact.
Tell them her parents are not really the understanding type, and she has never told them for fear of them not understanding or being shunned.
She is a little older now and she fears she will never get married for her parents expect her to marry what they want. Tell your parents that you are at a loss for words
what kind of advice would they suggest you tell your friend.
This will plant the seed in their mind about the possiblity of such a situation.
Then you can also see their real opinion on the matter, without them feeling threatened or being biased.
Do this Cheerful, in your own words of course, in a way that they are sure you
are talking about a real story, about someone ELSE!
a wee or so later you can do one of three things,
1)Either start hinting to your (mother) or father rather, men are more rational, and wont be ruled by emotion, which will make your message easier to sink in.
2)Confide in a rational, reasonable, aunt, uncle,mentor, or teacher, that will help you approach your parents with the reality
of the situation.
3)Tell them flat out, one time in front of both of them, and when they start protesting tell them that they’re contraditing their own advice regarding that fictitious girl (really you).
This last approach is bold and is like pulling off a bandage stuck with hair off
in one shot. don’t try it unless your ready for a shouting match,
and if your parents are really unreasonable, pack a bag with clothes,
and stay by a friend for a few days. A single one of course,
wouldn’t want to start a whole other thread in CR with backlash on this comment.
Hatzlocha Raboh!!! Remember the CR has your back!December 20, 2009 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #683762
bein_hasdorim: 1)Either start hinting to your (mother) or father rather, men are more rational, and wont be ruled by emotion, which will make your message easier to sink in. M
Um…bein_hasdorim…no feminist here, but speaking as a rationale female…I think you should have just said “whichever parent you think would be able to accept this information in a more calm and reasonable fashion”. Not only would that have been less prejudiced, but it also would have been more practical…Just sayin’! 😉December 20, 2009 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #683763
NY Mom; you are soo right! (I forgot there are moms reading this too!);-)
actually in all fairness, there are dads out there, who might react more hysterical
and unreasonable than any mother. Taking that into consideration,
I humbly rephrase my statement
1)Either start hinting to the parent which would react more reasonable
that you are not satisfied with the boys you have been dating, if they could
perhaps help you figure out why?December 20, 2009 11:10 pm at 11:10 pm #683764
bein_hasdorim, I commend you on your well-thoughtout and thoughtful responses!December 20, 2009 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #683765
To all of you out there! I thank you so much ur super advice and understanding support. You have no idea how much they mean to me! Knowing that there are ppl out there with whom I can confide in anonymously, and still get outstanding advice eases the situation a lot!!
I’ve read all your responses and gave lots of thought to each of your comments. I had lots of what to think on Shabbos, and will be making soon a decision of how to approach this matter.
Again, I really appreciate your comments! And I’m proud to be part of the Om hanivchar where brothers and sisters help each others without even having the slightest clue who the recipient is.
Thank you all! I’ll keep you posted of any positive development.December 21, 2009 5:50 am at 5:50 am #683766
happyOOTer; Thanks! I try.
Cheerful; which ever way you choose, we wish you Hatzlocha!
Stay cheerful. Positive energy is the key solving to any problem.December 21, 2009 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #683767
I second that bein_hasdorim—staying positive is the way to successfully attempt to solve any problem. It also helps in davening for much needed siyata dishmaya. We must try and do what we can, and then realize the end result is in Hashem’s hands (which is so emancipating).December 21, 2009 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #683768
Glad to see Ms. Cheerful is on the path to shidduch-land, but lets not forget about Mr. Tire-Changer and Ms. Stranded.
UNless… Ms. Cheerful REALLY IS Ms. Stranded, and she just wants to be sure the CR members are really rooting her (which we do).
Either way, Mr. Tire changer is waiting for an answer (as are all of us!)December 28, 2009 6:08 pm at 6:08 pm #683769rescue37Participant
the yentas want to knowDecember 28, 2009 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #683771
Ms. Cheerful/Stranded, just tell us where and when. We’ve got your back. 😉December 30, 2009 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #683772rescue37Participant
looks like matzav.com has just posted the story without any attribution to YWN.December 30, 2009 10:08 pm at 10:08 pm #683773
rescue37: Please be dan l’kaf zechus. Maybe telegrok sent this to them also.December 30, 2009 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #683774
But will Matzav’s readership have the CR’s insights? (doubtful!)
And will someone please get us an update? a month later, we should know something, one way or another!December 31, 2009 12:13 am at 12:13 am #683775mybatMember
Someone copied and pasted the same exact OP!December 31, 2009 1:48 am at 1:48 am #683776
Interesting – I did not send this to matzav – I had never heard of matzav until I saw rescue37’s post – I have not been posting updates because hud’s comment about giving the kids some privacy and not spilling their lives over the internet made me think I should be more sensitive –December 31, 2009 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #683777
Does this mean you HAVE an update? C’mon.. we’re not “everone”.. we’re practcaly the shadchanim here!
When I was dating, I asked someone who was going to Amuka to say tehilim for me to find my zivug. When I told him a few months later that I got engaged, he said, “you know, I played a part in this!”
We of the CR have been (well, most of us have been) highly supportive of this shidduch, and the least you could do is show the couple the comments and ask them if they want the news (which we hope is forthcoming?) shared with the CR.
We’ll never know who they are (unless they tell) and at least we’ll be able to close this thread and move on to more pressing issues!December 31, 2009 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #683778
BP Totty – as my husband says, “Ha’meivin yoh’vin”
The important thing is that I’ve learned not to be such a yenta –December 31, 2009 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #683779
Would you let us know if they get engaged, at least?
Doesn’t have to be immediately, so we wouldn’t figure out who it is.
Just always nice to have closure…know what I mean?January 1, 2010 2:36 am at 2:36 am #683780
BP Totty – more pressing issues? Like what??
Wow, I DO feel like a yenta…January 1, 2010 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #683781EphraimParticipant
I hope not to get to personal for some of you Holy Readers! My name is Ephraim Y (my real name), last name left out for editorial reasons. I am now very happily married for about 24 years to the only girl I ever considered marriying or dating due to the exact same story listed here. I was waiting for a bus back to Yeshiva in Baltimore MD on a cold December night. Across the street were 2 local girls attempting to change a flat tire. I crossed the street and offered to change the tire on the condition that they bring my friend and I back to Yeshiva due to the fact that I was waiting for the last bus. No problem was the reply.
About a year later, as hashgacha pratis would have it, I was visiting a friend in Baltimore who lived on the same block as one of the girls from that night. Unbeknownst to me at the time, I spent Shabbos Oneg Shabbos with all my friends at this girls house. I was there the next day also on a bet from a friend of mine (a story for another coffee room chat). The rest of this story is History now, but K”H, there are now 6 children and a Grandchild from this flat tire.
I have come to the realization at this point in my life that nothing, absolutely nothing, happens by chance. There is a Rebono Shel Olam who puts two people from different backgrounds and different cities together on a dark city block for a reason. I am very happy that I was on G-D’s radar screen that night!January 6, 2010 7:34 am at 7:34 am #683782mom12Participant
Yes the malach of shidduchim is doing his job!
I have an interesting story as well,
but it will have to be at a later date
too much to type for now.April 26, 2010 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #683783YW Moderator-42Moderator
Does anyone know what happened with this story?
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