Daas Torah

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Daas Torah

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 365 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #1076565
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    ZD, you really like that topic, don’t you.

    Jabotinsky was not a leader. He was an activist of the type that it is not surprising that he had extreme expectations. People today also predict all sorts of things. When one of them turns out correct, does that make him more on target? No.

    The Mishna says, ????? ???? ??? ??????. Does giving an Eitza mean you have absolute knowledge? It means you know how to make a decision. I hope this is not too deep for you.

    I usually decide things with my head rather than my heart. If it turns out that my heart was right and not my brain, should I start following my heart and ignore logic? If I read wrong should I stop reading?

    These are actually two separate things. It is worth speaking things over with a wise person and since ????? ???? ??? ??????, a Talmid Chochom that learns Torah Lishma is the best candidate for that. Another issue is community questions. The Chachamim are the Einei Ha’eida and must be listened to in these matters. Those who don’t listen are Poresh Min Hatzibur. There is also a Siyata Dishmaya to help make decisions in these matters, as it says, ???? ????? ???????.

    Additionally, there is a Seyata Dishmaya in advice from a Talmid Chochom who learns Torah Lishma and is Dover Emes Bilvavo. There is also a concept of Ruach Hakodesh, which is why people turn to Gedolim for personal issues.

    #1076566
    writersoul
    Member

    DY: “OK, so let me rephrase my post: Charlie, I predicted that the Rangers would beat the other team to get to the championship. According to your logic, that proves that I have more hockey expertise than anyone who predicted that the other team would win.

    In other words, It still doesn’t prove anything.”

    It proves that if I want to know about who’s going to win a hockey game, I should ask you and not necessarily my rav, unless he has much more hockey knowledge than I think he does.

    #1076567
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “There is also a concept of Ruach Hakodesh, which is why people turn to Gedolim for personal issues.”

    Quote from R’ Aharon Feldman:

    “Other than followers of certain Chasidic Rebbes, I have never heard of anyone who understands da’as Torah to refer to metaphysical inspiration. On a personal level, I have had the priveledge to be present when Gedolim of our times – whose opinions are considered da’as Torah by a large portion of Jewery – have dealt with major decisions. Nevetr did one of them imply that their decisions were taken with anything but their human decision-making faculties. On the contrary, they were unanimously repelled by anyone who claimed to have arrived at a conclusion through supernatural inspiration.”

    (The Eye of the Storm p.183)

    #1076568
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Why am I not allowed to post a story about R’ Zelik Epstein?

    #1076569
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Sadly, these days, Daas Torah for many is finding a Rav who shares the same philosophy as they do and declaring them their Daas Torah.

    #1076570
    Logician
    Participant

    Yes Sam, bothered me too. Could be he should fast, just not a valid reason not to go on an important trip. In any event, R’ Shach used to say over the story, so (besides for the point that he knew the gemara) that gives validity to whatever you can infer from the story – which is what we’re debating.

    Other than followers of certain Chasidic Rebbes, I have never heard of anyone who understands da’as Torah to refer to metaphysical inspiration.

    A bit silly, if you ask me. I don’t know its extent or who has it, but its def. referred to in all sorts of non-chasidic seforim.

    And the story with R’ Zelig has been quoted here plenty. Take his words with a grain of salt, understand the point he was making, and move on. His words do not back up the majority of the “anti-da’as torah concept” posters here.

    #1076571
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “A bit silly, if you ask me. I don’t know its extent or who has it, but its def. referred to in all sorts of non-chasidic seforim”

    Do these all sorts of non-chasidic seforim refer to mataphysical inspiration?

    #1076572
    jbaldy22
    Member

    Patur Aval Assur

    I would love to see some mareh mkomos on the subject of daas torah other than in reference to the sanhedrin. Ok I see there is a sefer hachinuch which extends it beyond the sanhedrin but it does not seem to imply that the reason has anything to do with the metaphysical.

    #1076573
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It proves that if I want to know about who’s going to win a hockey game, I should ask you and not necessarily my rav, unless he has much more hockey knowledge than I think he does.

    Really? If I once predict the outcome of a sporting event, that proves to you that I’m an expert?

    And if your rav would predict who would win a game without any significant knowledge or research (assuming hypothetically that there was significance to the answer), I would tell you to get a new rav.

    #1076574
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    From R’ Dessler:

    ???? ???? ????? ?????*

    ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?????, ?? ?? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??”?, ?????? ???? ?????? ?????? ?? ???, ??? ??”? ??? ??????? ????? ?????? ??? ?’ ??? ???? ?’, ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?”?, ???’ ??”? ?”?, ???’ ?’ ???? ??????? ?”?, ???’ ?’ ???? ??? ?”?, ???? ????, ??? ???? ????? ???????, ??? ???? ???????, ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????”?, ???? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ????, ???? ???? ???? ????? – ?”?. ?? ??? ???? ??????. ???? ????? ????? ????, ???”? ?????. ?? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??????, ??????? ??? ???? ??????? ???????? ??????? ?’, ????? ????, ?? ?? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????; ?? ????? ?? ???? ???, ??? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ????, ?? ??, ?????? ???? ????????, ????? ???? ???? ????, ????? ?? ????? ??????.

    ???? ?? ??? ???? ???, ?? ???? ???????? ???? ????? ???? ????, ??????? ??????? ?????? ??? ?????, ??? ???? ???? ??”?, ???”? ?????? ??”? ???’ ?’ ???? ???? ??”?, ????? ???? ?? ?????, ?? ???’ ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ?????? ?????, ????? ???? ??’ ???? ????? ?? ????? ???; ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?????? ?????. ??? ???? ????: ?? ???? ?????????, ??? ???? ??, ??”? ???? ????? ????????? ??????? ????? ??”? ?????? ??? ?????, ??? ????? ????, ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ?? ?????, ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?????, ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???, ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ????? ???? ???????. ??? ???? ???? “?????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????????? ???? ??????? ???? ??????? ???. ????? ???? ????? ?? ?’ ?’ ????? ????”?*) ?? ????? ??????? ??? ??”? ??”? ??? ?? ?????, ?? ???? ????? ???? ??? ??? ???, ??? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???”? ????, ???’ ???? ?? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ????. ???? ???? ??? ??”? ????? ????? ????? ???’ ?????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ????, ??? ???? ?”?, ?????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?????, ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ???? ??????? ????? ????. ?? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ?”? ??? ?”? ???? ???? ????? ??????, ???? ??, ???? ??? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???. ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????.

    ????? ?????? ?????, ?? ?????? ?????”? ??”? ??? ????”? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????”? ??”?. – ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????, ???? ??? ?????? ??????? ?? ??? ?”?. ???, ??? ?????? ????, ?? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ???, ??? ?????, ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ??? (?? ?? ?? ???”? ???), ??? ?? ??? ???? ???. ????? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ???? – ?????? ????? ???? ???? (????? ??”?) “??????? ????? ????… ??? ??? ?? ????.. ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????, ??? ?????? ??”. (???’ ???? ?”?) ???? ???? ?????? ???? : – ??? ????? ??? ???, ?? ??? ??? ???????? ????? ?”? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?’ ???? ??????? ??????? %? ??? ?? ???, ??”? ?? ???? ?????, ?????. ??”? ?? ??? ??? ??”? ??? ??. – ??? ?’ ???? (???? ?”? ????????) ??????? ???, ???? ???? ?????? ??, – ?????? ???”? *) ??? ??? ???? ??? ?”?, ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????, – ?????? ?? ??????, ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????, ?????? ????? ???? (?’ ?’ ??? ?’) “?”? ????? ‘??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ????’, ??? ??? ‘?”? ?????? ??”??’ ??? ???? ????”. ???”? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??????? ?? ????? ?????, ????? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ???????. ???? ????? ??, ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?????, ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ?????, ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ??????, ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???????, ???? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??, ??? ??? ???? ???? ????, ?? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ????, ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????.

    * ????? ?????. – ????? ????? ?????, ??? ??? ???? ????? ?”? ?????? ??????? ??????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ???? ?????????, ????? ???? ??,

    ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?????? ??”? ????? ??”? ???? ??????, ??? ???????, ????? ??

    ?? ?? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ???]. ???????.

    *) ????? ???? ??”?, ??? ?? ????? ??.

    #1076575
    MachaaMaker
    Member

    Rav Chaim kanievsky was asked up if you are allowed to smoke cigarettes, he said yes and theyre not actually dangerous. So would you now all have no problem with you or your children smoking, or do you, as you trust the doctors and scientific community who know more about this topic than rav chaim?????

    #1076576
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    jbaldy22:

    The Sefer Hachinuch is the only rishon that I know of (there could be rishonim that I haven’t seen) that extends Lo Tasur to every generation. The Chofetz Chaim in Sefer Hamitzvos Hakatzar quotes the Sefer Hachinuch. Even regarding the Sanhedrin itself, see the Torah Temima that if you think you are right you still have to listen, but if you are 100% sure that you are right than you don’t listen. He quotes the Ramban which seems to say that you do have to listen and he says that that is ??? ????? ???? ??? ??? and then reconciles the Ramban. There aren’t going to be too many mareh mekomos from Talmudic/Rishonic sources that are anything more than roundabout. In the past century or so there are several sources. See my forthcoming posts.

    #1076577
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Rav Chaim kanievsky was asked…”

    The thing is that in this case, R’ Chaim was preceeded by the Chofetz Chaim who very clearly decried smoking, specifically because of the health issues. See Likutei Amarim perek 13 and Zechor L’Miriam perek 23.

    #1076578
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    B’shaim the Chofetz Chaim:

    ??? ??’ ???? ?? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???’ ????? ??? ???? ???’ ?? ???’ ?? ???? ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ???? ???? ?????

    #1076579
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I don’t think anybody will deny that it’s possible (maybe probable) that in general great Rabbis are smarter/have better insight. The issue is how this applies to individual issues that might be beyond the scope of Rabbinic expertise, or something in which they may not have all the information. The issue then becomes whether there can be a “psak” in non-halachic issues (unless you say that every issue is a halachic issue). In that regard see the Rambam peirush hamishnayos Sotah 3:5, Sanhedrin 10:3, Shavuos 1:4, Sefer Hamitzvos Lo Saaseh 133, Maamar Techias Hameisim, and R’ Shmuel Hanagid’s Mavo Hatalmud (the last line) for a start.

    #1076580
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    If you want some anti-daas torah, R’ Aaron Rakeffet has a bunch of shiurim on YUTorah where he lambasts daas torah. He says in one of them that R’ Soloveitchik said that we have to make an al chait for listening to the daas torah by the holocaust.

    #1076581
    apushatayid
    Participant

    Not to go off topic, but I am certain Rav Chaim never said what was just attributed to him.

    #1076582
    Sam2
    Participant

    It’s explicit in one of the collections of “T’shuvos” that people asked R’ Chaim and wrote. Someone asked him if it’s Muttar to smoke on Yom Tov. He said “Assur L’ashen”. While these collections are not always entirely reliable, it’s probably much more reliable than random stories.

    #1076583
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The issue is how this applies to individual issues that might be beyond the scope of Rabbinic expertise, or something in which they may not have all the information.

    That’s an issue in halachah as well.

    #1076584
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Patur aval assur:

    When discussing this, or any issue that is not black-and-white in the poskim, there is little purpose in bringing in “Modern Orthodox” views.

    We are approaching Matan Torah, and are in the midst of learning Pirkei Avos, which begins with the Mesorah from Moshe Rabbeinu and on. Our celebration on Shavuos is, in a large part, the unbroken chain of our mesorah that we have all the way back to Moshe Rabbeinu.

    Unfortunately, since the “MO” broke with our mesorah, as that same Rabbi JB Soloveitchik himself admits, their “opinion” on these matters is not relevant.

    Second, biNidon diDan, Zionists have, of course, a vested interest in trying to defend their idolatry. So that quote from Rabbi JB Soloveitchik is par for that course and also does not take into account the points quoted above from gedolim.

    If you want a legit opinion against daas Torah, find a true gadol who holds that, if you can find any that do so.

    #1076585
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Chachamim were Gozer things even without a connection to any Issur. For example, the Sandel Hamesumar. As leaders and policy setters we must listen to them. It is a form of Psak when they declare something important for the well-being of Yiddishkeit.

    This is entirely separate from asking personal advice, in which case it is advisable to follow advice of a Torah-trained mind but you don’t have to.

    You must listen to your Rebbe when he commands you to do something.

    To listen to someone who has Ruach Hakodesh is more than just advisable and disobeying him might bump with some Issurim. Ruach Hakodesh might be on the level of Siyata Dishmaya, where it is a decision with a guided bias. I know of numerous instances of such advice from Gedolim that sounds prophetic.

    #1076586
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Second, biNidon diDan, Zionists have, of course, a vested interest in trying to defend their idolatry”

    Every side in every dispute has avested interest.

    “If you want a legit opinion against daas Torah, find a true gadol who holds that, if you can find any that do so.”

    Sorry. I just figured that someone about whom the Devar Avraham said “???? ????? ??? ????” would be a true gadol. Thank you for correcting my misconception.

    By the way, which aspect of “our mesorah” did he break with?

    #1076587
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Baal Hatanya (???? ???? ??):

    ?????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ??????

    ???? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????, ???? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ????????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ????? ???????? ?????? ???????? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ??????? ?????? ????? ?? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???????

    ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ???????? ?? ??? ??? ??????

    #1076588
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Hakatan,

    Whose unbroken Mesora are you referring to? Sfardim? Yemenites? You also ignore the Chassidim, who threw away centuries of Minhagim and Nusach?

    #1076589
    Sam2
    Participant

    By the way, next time someone asks for an example of a HaKatan post that’s insulting, look no further than this thread.

    (Oh, and for the bajillionth time I will protest the use of the name “JB”. He decried the fact that people in his time referred to Roshei Yeshivah that way. It is a gross insult to use the very same way he protected other Talmidei Chachamim against him.)

    #1076590
    charliehall
    Participant

    “If you want a legit opinion against daas Torah, find a true gadol who holds that, if you can find any that do so.”

    Rov Soloveitchik z’tz’l has already been mentioned.

    #1076591
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Also, the pasuk of Lo Tasur is referring to ????? ???????????? ?????????? ????? ??????????? ?????? ?????? ????? ??????? ???????? ?????? ????????????? and even the Sefer Hachinuch doesn’t mention any other categories.

    #1076592
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Whose unbroken Mesora are you referring to? Sfardim? Yemenites? You also ignore the Chassidim, who threw away centuries of Minhagim and Nusach?”

    What unbroken mesorah promotes kollel for everyone? The only time in the history of the Jewish people that everyone was studying torah full time was the dor hamdibar, who according to Rabbi Akiva forfeited their share in olam haba.

    #1076593
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Dr. Hall: Let’s agree that the Mesorah doesn’t support Kollel (at least for argument’s sake). It does promote serious learning of Torah for every Jew, so that they should know all of the laws (at a minimum). The modern social contract (“Great Society” and socialized economies in Israel and Europe) has the unintended consequence that it is easy for someone to sit and do nothing and still survive (which was impossible 100 years before). How can we expect that people should NOT take advantage of that system in order to learn Torah to the best of their ability?

    #1076595
    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    gavra-at-work: your recent comments bring up a delicious irony as your screen name implies working….as per your argument- every individual is entitled to do with his life what he wants. If he wants to remain dirt poor and learn- so be it. There is precedent for that. If he wants to work and live in relative comfort- that too is fine and has plenty of precedents. What the first one cannot do is force the second one to subsidize his lifestyle, based o nsome imaginary idea. And most grieviously, to insist that only the first approach is correct is indefensible.

    #1076596
    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    Someone who supports YCT and its leaders cannot and should not expect anyone to think any of his discussions about mesorah are even worth reading.

    #1076597
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    rabbiofberlin – The key word there is “force”. As long as the government is willing to pay for it, you can’t blame anyone for taking. It is the reason why I support the Israelis in their choice not to fund Kollel (if they so desire), but if they change that choice, I would support that as well.

    As far as the “Kollel for all” approach, that is much more societal than Halachic (where it is obviously disproved).

    #1076598
    bhe (Joseph)
    Participant

    Sam2: I don’t know if you were around in his lifetime, but his initials (after his title of Rabbi Dr.) was the name he was most commonly known as and called by during his lifetime.

    #1076599
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Charlie, what about the Dor of Chizkiyahu Hamelech? The Essen Kest ‘system’ was around for many years. In fact, as the Gemara says, Ha Lan Veha Lehu. They learned full time after they were married. Others have said, Ikka Kani Be’agma. The Gemara also says that Torah is ontained by those who become Achzarim to their families. The Gemara is full of advice for Tzurba Derabanan who had to live cheaply. But mainly, as Gavra said, we took advantage of everything to learn more.

    There was no change in Hashkafa from a Rav’s Rebbe.

    By the way, Rabbi Solovetchik also spoke about the importance of following the Gedolim, I am told.

    As long as the difference of when to apply what and to whom is not understood, we can keep on bringing junk proof this way and that.

    #1076600
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Sam2:

    In addition to what bhe wrote, I merely abbreviated his two names to one set of initials and, crucially, preceded that with the word “Rabbi”.

    There is no need to protest this, as this is not a lack of kavod to anyone. I need not point out that I’ve seen references to, for example, “Rav E.M. Shach”, to which nobody takes offense claiming that you have to write out “Rav Elazar Menachem Man Shach” instead.

    That’s ridiculous.

    As to insulting, I simply indicated what Rabbi JB Soloveitchik said about himself. I’m sorry that you feel insulted by your “Rav”, but that has nothing to do with me.

    #1076601
    HaKatan
    Participant

    Patur aval assur:

    I would vote to get back to the topic and to your quote from the Baal haTanya.

    I don’t recall it being pointed out that things like whether or not to flee Europe before WW II are really questions of halacha, not political questions. It was well-known that America was dangerous for yahadus at the time, and that E”Y was under threat of attack from the Nazis. In fact, the Brisker Rav himself left for E”Y because of the potential spiritual threat of Russian occupation despite his fear of physical danger from the Nazis if they were to have reached E”Y.

    There were parts of Europe that were not attacked until very late in the war. Had Hashem willed it, the war could have been over much earlier. Then there’s also the schar viOnesh aspect, etc.

    Taking a particular set of actual circumstances without considering the many variables, both known and unknown, and then extrapolating that to “mai ahanu lei rabbanan” is, at the very least, foolish and short-sighted.

    #1076602
    apushatayid
    Participant

    “was the name he was most commonly known as and called by during his lifetime.”

    By whom? The next time you hear or read something by his talmidim (Rabbi Genack for example) see how they refer to him? Most likely the title used is “The Rav”, never JB. That is an intentional derogatory usage by those who wished to malign him for whatever reason.

    #1076603
    anon1m0us
    Participant

    All I will post is that B’H I am no longer Yeshivish. The blatant chutzpah people have calling Rabbonim (even if they are not yours) by their initials is a lack of derech eretz that ANY Gadol or Daas Torah would object too. While a Gadol can call himself as he wishes, the klal has no right.

    #1076604
    bhe (Joseph)
    Participant

    Um, no. It was never disrespectful whatsoever. He encouraged using English names and this is simply how his colleagues and contemporaries, respectfully with the titles, referred to him and called him.

    In fact, as two quick random examples, these books and publications were authored and published during his lifetime by those who revered him and used exactly that name:

    Confrontation: The Existential Thought of Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik, Ktav, 1992

    Rabbi J.B. Soloveitchik on Human Knowledge: Between Maimonidean and Neo-Kantian Philosophy, Modern Judaism 1986

    #1076605
    Sam2
    Participant

    bhe: I have asked many, many people who were around in his lifetime. His Talmidim almost all called him “The Rav” (R’ Schachter still famously refers to him as “Rabbi Soloveitchik”, but he’s a minority). His contemporary Rabbonim and Gedolim referred to him as Rav Yoshe Ber. His Seforim were published as Rav Yosef Dov HaLeivi.

    His academic philosphical works were published as Rabbi Dr. JB Soloveitchik, because the academic convention of the time was to use initials like that. No one who learned from him dared call him that, as he was vociferously against using the same convention for Roshei Yeshivah (someone once related to me that he went on a 15-minute rant about Kavod HaTorah after hearing someone refer to the Sridei Eish as “Rav YY Weinberg”).

    At some point, people decided that a great way to malign him would be to claim that he wanted to be referred to as “JB” because he cared about academic convention more than the Torah aspect of his life. It is a gross insult and blatant falsehood, though I guess when HaKatan insinuates that he was an Apikores and Machti Es HaRabim (because he says he changed the Mesorah to one of religion and Avodah Zarah mixed together), I really shouldn’t complain about the comparatively smaller insult of using a derogatory nickname.

    (Edit)

    #1076606
    The little I know
    Participant

    I’m struggling to get the gist of the comments strewn around here. The great people and leaders are capable of being a source of light and guidance to us. However, we must be fully aware of what they offer and what we need. It is utterly foolish to expect a Rosh Yeshiva, however great and expansive his Talmud knowledge is, to resolve medical problems or know how to direct a patient with a medical condition. To collect his brachos is always worthwhile, and our Chazal stated clearly, “??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????”. It does not instruct us to seek their prescriptions. Why? Because we are obligated to make our ??????? through the means of nature and the science that HKB”H has granted us. When the Gadol will also possess advanced medical training, I can consider his medical guidance an option.

    Over the generations, we have witnessed situations in which the guidance offered to someone by a Gadol was clearly ??? ?????. Yes, that happened with many Gedolim of yesteryear, and even today we read stories of ????? ????? that boggle the mind. Yet, one does not have the freedom to rely on such ??? ?????, unless all other forms of ??????? have been exhausted. One may not assume that the Gadol is responding from a wellspring of ??? ?????, even if that is something we have reason to believe is possible.

    The confusion over what Daas Torah means is no different from when the terminology was popularized a while back. It’s our deterioration that has us in trouble. We prefer the Gadol use some sort of magic to produce instantaneous yeshuos. We’re misusing our Gedolim by having unrealistic expectations.

    #1076608
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    We call the Chida by his initials. 🙂

    #1076609
    Sam2
    Participant

    I accept that the end of that post was edited, but it was certainly no worse than some of the things other posters get away with saying.

    HaLeiVi: Of course. No one takes any offense when the Rav is called the Grid.

    #1076610
    bhe (Joseph)
    Participant

    Sam2: That is what doesn’t make sense. It’s okay to call him by his Hebrew initials but not his English ones? He was quite happy going under his English name. He certainly was far better known (and called) Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik than he was called by his Hebrew name during his lifetime.

    (Many of his students may have called him “rav” when speaking to him just like any other rov’s or rebbe’s talmidim call him rebbe or rov. Rav Yoshe Ber, while used to an extent during his lifetime, only became popular posthumously.)

    #1076611
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    To collect his brachos is always worthwhile, and our Chazal stated clearly, “??? ??? ??? ????? ???? ?????”. It does not instruct us to seek their prescriptions

    This is what they call a straw man. There is nobody, and I mean nobody who goes to a Godol for actual medical advice rather than to a doctor.

    One may not assume that the Gadol is responding from a wellspring of ??? ?????, even if that is something we have reason to believe is possible.

    An Adam Gadol, of the type that I would want to speak to, would be mature enough to know what he knows and what he is capable of answering. I wouldn’t advise someone on something of which I am not sure. It doesn’t make a difference how much Ruach Hakodesh, if it is a mixture, or if he happens to be well versed in the topic. If he tells me then he knows that he can advise me.

    Yet, one does not have the freedom to rely on such ??? ?????, unless all other forms of ??????? have been exhausted.

    This does not mix with Hishtadlus. It has nothing to do with that. If you got an answer then you got an answer. Hishtadlus would mean that you shouldn’t wait around for an answer. What does it mean not to rely on Ruach Hakodesh? If you know that it is from Shamayim, who exactly are you outsmarting?

    #1076612
    apushatayid
    Participant

    But nobody with a shred of kavod hatora calls the Chida, “CY”.

    #1076613
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Of course not. That is not his full initials.

    #1076614
    bhe (Joseph)
    Participant

    apushatayid: He was called *Rabbi* Dr. JB Soloveitchik. Not the initials without the title(s). So HaLeiVi’s comparison makes a good point.

    #1076615
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Hakatan:

    I never extrapolated “mai ahanu lei rabbanan”. All I did was point out that the Baal Hatanya was lamenting the fact that people are asking Talmidei Chachamim for worldly advice.

    #1076616
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    We don’t say Reb when we refer to the Chida. I did notice some instances, though, where he is referred to as ?????”?.

    Now, I put a smiley there because we all know that it is not the same thing. It might take a 500 word essay to explain the difference, and the difference can still sound weak. But we know it is not the same thing. This is exactly what it sounds like to me when people here throw in something that can technically sound related. It happened on this thread as well.

Viewing 50 posts - 101 through 150 (of 365 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.