December 23, 2010 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #593681
When you are dating and you feel like you are making so many concessions just to make it work at what point do you say, maybe we are just not meant to be?December 23, 2010 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #727224eclipseMember
When your mind and heart are agreeing with each other,and/or someone who cares about you whom you trust hears you out and agrees.December 23, 2010 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #727225Derech HaMelechMember
I think when you feel you are making so many concessions that you have to ask the CR- thats your sign right there.December 23, 2010 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #727226klachMember
if you are not confident in your choice and have doubts, you won’t have a happy marriage bec you will always be wondering whether this is your bashert.December 23, 2010 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #727227NEEDIDEASMember
First you need to be honest with yourself… Normally their is a huge rush of excitment that may blind you or encourage you… Like eclipse said “mind and heart” with someone to hear what is on your mind and heart and give advice…. However the person you speak to should be someone that knows you well or is very well versed in the parsha….December 23, 2010 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #727228
dating is all about communication and compromise. because shidduch dating is done there is more pressure to get married.
but ur rite, i have the same question because im dating a guy who is NOT a football player, can i live with that for the rest of my life?? idk?December 23, 2010 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #727229
If you feel like your giving in and the both of you are not compromising and working together then thats a sure sign that you don’t feel that you or your needs are being respect. Stop for a minute and re-evaluate what is going on. How do YOU need to be respected? Are your needs being met and respected in this relationship? Are you sharing the same values?
If your answers to this question are not in the affirmative you need to ask yourself “what am I doing in this relationship and where is it going?”.December 23, 2010 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #727230
Thanks aries.December 23, 2010 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #727231
I’ve got one foot out the door to mincha, so I really gotta keep this short (I’ll re-post later).
The word “consession” makes it sound like your’re losing out to your opponent. Marraige is about fitting 2 halves into a whole. each piece needs to fit in a specific spot; that way, everybody “wins”
Back soon….SacDecember 23, 2010 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #727232
As we are in the early part of Shemos, let , me end off with this thought:
I know this is a real leap of faith for you, Sac. I know, because all us married folks were there too. But you can make it work, Sac. Believe in yourself, and believe in your bashert.
Hatzlocha rabba!December 26, 2010 2:43 am at 2:43 am #727233tomim tihyeMember
BPT- I like the D’var Torah at the end. Shkoyach!
As for the rest of the post, give Sac some credit! You should know her better than that by now- she don’t need that shpiel!December 26, 2010 3:02 am at 3:02 am #727234adorableParticipant
being a girl on the market i have a lot of questions when people talk about giving in in shidduchim? What will I have to give in? Will he want me to go to his mother and father every other shabbos? will he expect me not to work when i would like to(for the scoial part not the money) and will he want me to make these major 5 course suppers every night when i am not used to that? I am so confused and whenever i hear these things i am not sure what people mean….what do i have to change and what will i have to adjust to? are we talking about changing everything i am used to? What if he snores? What if he showers only once in two days while i MUST shower ever night no matter what? I am very scared about what things i might have to give in and i sometimes think it’s just not worth it!
BPT- i remember you once wrote that a marriage that is good….there is nothing like it but if it doesn’t work….it’s hellDecember 26, 2010 4:47 am at 4:47 am #727235Trying my bestMember
You should want to not work. You should be happy to make him suppers. You should be accepting of his snores.
Once you get your priorities straight, you wouldn’t have to worry about all the things you’ll have to give in about.December 26, 2010 7:21 am at 7:21 am #727236yechezkel89Member
tyring my best, it’s not for you to judge what her priorities should be, use a bit of siechelDecember 26, 2010 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #727237
Thank you so much for taking the time out to write that thoughtful post. Although I may not be reporting the “besurah tova” you hoped for I am truly happy with the outcome, as the chazal goes “ain simcha kihataras hasfeikos”.
To those who question my posting this in the CR, the reason I did so is a. There are many other single individuals who frequent these boards and at some point they may be going through something similar b. Sometimes you need the opinions of those removed from the situation to provide (unbiased) insight.December 26, 2010 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #727238
Cutiepie- of course there’ll be much getting used to. However, keep in mind that your husband IYH will have to get used to many things about you too!
Some things can be worked on(showers for exapmle- if you ask him to shower every day, he might comply. Please save the question for after you’re married!)
Some things you will just have to live with. Therefore, while dating, you TRY(we can never be sure), that nothing will bother you that much that it will grate your nerves for life.
Anyway, if you’re really happy, then the little things don’t bother too much.
Don’t forget you two grew up in different families after all. That’s what marriage is. It’s working on your Middos and being happy!
Hatzlacha!December 28, 2010 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #727239
Like Smartcookie said, 80% of the things you’re worried about will solve themselves a week or two after shevah brachos, much if the other 10% within the next few months.
As for the last 10%… well, I’m going on almost 25 years of marraige, and I’m still working on that.
And yes, when it works (as is the case 99.9% of the time) it is VERY good. Don’t for one minute think otherwise. Part of what is scaring you (and many young people) is the fact that so far, most things are handed to you (clothing, food, trips, housing, ect) so you’re afraid of what its like to “earn” these things on your own steam. But take it from me; nothing gives you the satisfaction of doing something on your own.
Imagine setting your own Shabbos table, and most things on it were cooked / baked by you. Now inagine the look on your husband’s face when he walks in from shul and sees what you’ve done.
Now imagine the look on your husband’s face when he walks trhu the door with his first paycheck. Then imagine the look on YOUR face when he buys you something with the money that HE earned.
That’s what marraige can be like.. if you both work towards it.December 28, 2010 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #727240
BP Totty- you make it sound like marriage is all about money and managing your own house.
That part is the exciting one!
I think the nervousness comes from the thought, “Will we get along? Will I have very many adjustments to make?”
It is more a fear of the unknown.December 28, 2010 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #727241
Sorry to hear things did not work out. Kapitl # 20 had loads of encouraging things to say, but given the circumstances, I think the most relevant one is posuk 9: “They fall, and stay down; we pick ourselves up and keep going”
Al Tisyaesh, Sac. Each deadend puts you one step closer to the true destination!December 28, 2010 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #727242OfcourseMember
BPT, how very lovely, all your imagine scenes.
Now what if you were not that nuts over the guy or girl in the first place, and you have a child who has severe physical handicaps, husband is out of work for 2 years with no end in sight, one spouse develops severe physical or mental issues, widening Hashkafic differences, spiraling cost of living, flared temper/s, a woman who cant tell the difference between clean and dirty with original ideas on what tasty foods are, and a mother in law who wants to blame everything on the other side, or maybe two such mothers in law, imagine that or worse.
Not that lovely.
The not so strong foundation, much more quickly crumbles.
All of a sudden all the things the single might have spent many years searching and dreaming for in a spouse amount to nothing because most importantly, they needed Midos, flexibility and maturity!December 28, 2010 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #727243
“you make it sound like marriage is all about money and managing your own house.”
Smartcookie – Sorry, thats not what I meant to say. What I meant is, its all about working towards a common goal, and one that you acheive by workng side-by-side, as opposed to getting things handed to you. As far as fear of the unknown, that we face each day. If we let that be an obstacle, we’d never learn / acheive anything.
Is every match as rosy as I painted? No, of course not. CAN every match be that good? You won’t know till you try.
There is no denying the senario you note is a very real possibility. But consider this: most times, each partner has done a fine job of managing to navigate the very tricky business of making and keeping friends trhu the school / early work years. There is no reason they cannot apply those skills to buliding their marraige.
Some of the items you listed are beyond the scope of a CR post. Handicapped children (r’l) or spouses that suffer a breakdown can derail the best marraige. These things can and sometimes happen. And in case like that, one needs rachamei shomayim. Still, scary as those senarios are, they are the exceptions, not the rule.
The problems you noted about mother-in-laws mixing in as very real. But to a great extent, this is when the mother-in-laws are footing the bill for the day to day of the newlywed couple.
This can be avoided, with a little planning. Does that mean you push your in-laws under a bus? No. But with a little sense of self-sufficency on the part of the new couple, they will earn the respect and privacy they need to build their own lifeDecember 29, 2010 1:01 am at 1:01 am #727244
“Sorry to hear things did not work out”
Really, I’m not. On to bigger and better.
I love that I have my own dating cheerleader though… 😀
“Now what if you were not that nuts over the guy or girl in the first place, and you have a child who has severe physical handicaps, husband is out of work for 2 years with no end in sight, one spouse develops severe physical or mental issues, widening Hashkafic differences, spiraling cost of living, flared temper/s, a woman who cant tell the difference between clean and dirty with original ideas on what tasty foods are, and a mother in law who wants to blame everything on the other side, or maybe two such mothers in law, imagine that or worse”
Because being overly paranoid is definitely the way to go.
Cutiepie (and whoever else is nervous about the unknown)
Go in to everything with your eyes and ears wide open (not overly paranoid like a certain poster will have you believe) but believe in the GOOD of humanity. People are good, life is good, marriage is good! Believe it and want it!
Dating is a process but you learn along the way to be more perceptive, trust your gut, if something feels wrong it probably is. Fall in love with your heart AND your head.
If you REALLY do have a commitment phobia, you should speak to a professional.December 29, 2010 1:44 am at 1:44 am #727245Pashuteh YidMember
Lmayseh there has to be a strong emotional feeling of simcha and not being able to wait to see the person you are going out with. You should look forward to each date with great excitement. If you are feeling blah about it, that is not the right one.
However, if the simcha and meshicha are there, and there are external issues like which town to live in, or something like that, then that is a normal part of marriage, and you must try to reach an understanding or a compromise. That is no reason to break a shidduch unless it is absolutely impossible to work out. Like one is in a top college on the East Coast with no other program available, and the other can’t leave the West Coast for urgent reasons or similar.December 29, 2010 2:04 am at 2:04 am #727246
That is no reason to break a shidduch unless it is absolutely impossible to work out.
Do you mean after they are engaged?December 29, 2010 2:11 am at 2:11 am #727247shev143Member
Try not giving in once and see what happens.December 29, 2010 4:15 am at 4:15 am #727248Pashuteh YidMember
Torahis1, I meant beforehand, as I am sure the topic of where to live comes up before getting engaged. However, some important issues could come up afterwards, and hopefully a compromise can be found. If two people really feel attached to each other, it is hard to believe that external issues can stand in the way, except in rare circumstances.December 30, 2010 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #727249
” she don’t need that shpiel! “
Sorry, Tomim Tihye – I just remebered that I did not address your comment.
True, Sac may be a big girl, but consider this:
1) I have yet to meet the person who does not appreicate an encouraging “shpiel”
2) Sac may not be the only person who reads the post and finds it relevant to a situation they are in (or may someday face).
I considered posting “just make up your mind and get it over with” as a reply, but the post I made filled up more space, so I went with that instead.December 30, 2010 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #727250
“just make up your mind and get it over with”
Funny, that sums up my usual approach to dating….December 30, 2010 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #727251
That’s why I said, “Sac is a big girl”.
Still, “just do it” might work for Nike.
For us, its “don’t just do it…do it right!”December 30, 2010 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #727252
You lost me among the cliches.December 30, 2010 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #727253
What I meant to say is, its a good thing to be decisive, but not at the expense of being reckless.
Take your time choosing, and when you find what you’re looking for, be prepared to go for it (which I’m certain you are).December 30, 2010 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #727254
How I wish I was as decisive as Sac…December 30, 2010 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #727255
Are you indecisive with everything or just when it comes to dating?December 30, 2010 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #727256mikehall12382Member
Depends on the concessions, like you want Pizza for dinner and she wants chicken, making a concession to have chicken tonight is fine. If she wants you to learn all day and not work, while you prefer to work and learn in the mornings/eveings well that is a BIG difference and not one to take lightlyDecember 30, 2010 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #727259
Most things. It gets bad by dating though because guys generally expect an answer the next day. Whatever…it’s something I gotta deal with.December 30, 2010 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #727261adorableParticipant
BPT- thank you for the encouragement. I think that the thing that scares me the most is the fact that as much as I be able to live with a guy and deal with certain things I keep hearing that marriage is about adjusting and giving in! Now imagine I tell you that you need to just give i….I think it is scary!December 30, 2010 8:35 pm at 8:35 pm #727262
I have a Cousin who is literally painful to go shopping with. While I walk in see what I want and buy, she agonizes over the decision for 2 hours and then puts it on hold to see if there is anything better, 5 stores and 8 hours later we end up buying the first <pair of shoes/dress/purse…> (no joke)
When it got to dating, and it was the right guy it just… went. No hassle, no painful deliberations and I wish the same thing for you. Soon!December 30, 2010 9:26 pm at 9:26 pm #727263
That’s why I buy things that are returnable 🙂
I hope I’ll know…I’m just scared that maybe I’ll think I can always do better. Okay, I’ll stop now. This is starting to sound like a psychiatrist session!December 30, 2010 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #727264
Banish “can do better” from your brain.
Theres the clock. See you next week.December 30, 2010 10:02 pm at 10:02 pm #727265
Dunno, your not alone. I’m TERRIBLE at it.December 30, 2010 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #727266pumperMember
Sometimes its good to give things some thought. I feel like sometimes people just do away with situations that might work out if some effort was put into it. Some people (especially boys) have the “disposable attitude”, if this doesn’t work out for me on the first shot then I’ll just dump it and move on to the next one.
When it is the right one, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it is going to go smoothly and without any hitches. Sometimes, people need to work on things together in order for a relationship to develop. Don’t give up on someone just because some effort may be needed.December 31, 2010 5:37 am at 5:37 am #727267
Here is the thing about relationships and Jewish Marriage. The goyim have it wrong. Marriage is NOT a 50/50 proposition. Jewish Marriage is a 100/100 percent proposition. If you give only 50 percent you are missing 50 percent and always waiting for the other 50. You never know if you gave what was needed and you are always waiting for what was missing. On the other hand when each partner GIVES 100% each partner gets 100% so each partner should always be happy and satisfied both from giving and getting what they need. The more you give the more you get in such a relationship because the relationship keeps building.
The question as posted was if one party seems to be “giving in” unproportionately. Why is that a problem, things even out in the end? The issue really is whether or not each party is WILLING to compromise and cares enough to make changes to please the other and make them happy.
So for instance in regards to showering every day or night whichever the wife prefers. If it is important to the wife it should be important to the husband and the wife should not be the only one expected to make adjustments. If the husband enjoys long relaxing meals, then yes the wife should respect that and do her best to try and please him. Unless, she is the one working full time and just can’t accomplish that. In that case, HE would either have to help with the meal or understand that it is just not possible.
Other such issues that were brought up should be equally discussed and given equal importance whether it seems important to the other partner or not. If it is important to one partner it should be important to the other simply for that reason.
This is what I believe BP was talking about as well, that both partners work together to build the relationship and make it work. It should never be one sided. So Sac and all the other singles, if you feel during the dating process that only one of you are important in the relationship, you need to think about whether you want to continue or end it quickly. Because if it is already going sour before the wedding, there isn’t much hope for it to get better after the wedding.December 31, 2010 6:02 am at 6:02 am #727268
Lol…time and place?
Thanks. It’s nice to know that I’m not the only one.
That brings us back to Sac’s original question – at what point do you say there’s no use working at this anymore? I can theoretically live with just about anyone but I’m looking for more than that in a spouse.December 31, 2010 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #727269
(to whoever is interested, so I can clarify)
What was happening in this particular situation (not nogeia anymore) was that he was asking me to do what he wanted, in regards to his dreams. He had a whole plan of how he wanted to live his life that wasnt exactly (understatement) how I envisioned mine. But, I’m flexible and open to change so we discussed it. Somehow my opinions and my feelings my likes and concerns werent a factor, for the first time in my life I really understood what “my way or the highway” meant, and we WERENT EVEN IN A COMMITTED RELATIONSHIP!
Bottom line you have to be aware of everything on a date. Super charming guy can also turn out to be very controlling. Rarely do people become monsters over night.December 31, 2010 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #727270OfcourseMember
From what I’ve seen and heard, knowing very well many girls in their mid to upper twenties, unless they’re lucky enough to date guys close in age, THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS!!!!, but, by and large the guys who are approaching 30, either have commitment issues, are impossible to please, arent sure they want or need to get married period, or have a hidden or not so hidden mental or physical issue, to name some issues. From the girls and the mothers Ive spoken to, who have dated these guys, the girls decide rather than marry a guy who is damaged goods, they’ll stay single.
No marriage is better than a marriage from hell and the hellish experience of bringing children into such a marriage.
Thats why it’s imperative for a girl to find a Shidduch young, and very sad when she hasnt, because the “normal” choices diminish GREATLY with each passing year. It really is like the game of musical chairs, with less and less “normal, usable” chairs as time goes on. No one wants or needs a problematic chair that will collapse upon use.
Dont waste your time arguing that the remaining girls have issues as well. Possibly, but at a tiny fraction relative to the guys.December 31, 2010 4:00 pm at 4:00 pm #727271
so whats the deal with guys and commitment issues?!?!?December 31, 2010 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #727272
It has nothing to do w commitment.December 31, 2010 4:21 pm at 4:21 pm #727273
Such a situation wouldn’t even be a question for me. I think, like you said, he is very controlling. It’s one thing to be flexible but marriage is a team where both spouses work together. Maybe I am more decisive than you 🙂December 31, 2010 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #727274
oh i wasnt responding to ur comment per say, i was just asking in general???December 31, 2010 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #727275
ofcourse, your post is very troubling. There are a variety of reasons why men are also still looking for a mate in their 30’s and that is because Hashem is in charge and maybe their shadchanim did not do an adequate job for them, or maybe their mothers were too controlling in what THEY were looking for and not necessarily what their sons were looking for. Please don’t label all men over 25 “damaged goods”. There is a zivig out there for everyone and everyone must do their histadlus. Women of that age have also been picky and have also turned down men for the wrong reasons, too short, too fat, wrong yeshiva, wrong town, too far, too close, wrong mother, wrong sister, etc. Everyone has their own quirks so lets leave that alone and try to be more productive. So yes “I DISAGREE”.
Everyone is faced with challenges, and sometime Hashem sends YOU a challenge because YOU are the best possible zivig for HIM and YOU are the best possible wife or husband that can turn this “nebech” of a person into an amazing person so that both of you will be an amazing couple. No matter what YOU think, ofcourse, this person might still be your other half whether you see it or not and together you might just conquer the world. It might just be a matter of peeling back some layers to see who this person really is beneath the mask.
On the other hand, Sac’s situation was completely different. She was dealing with an entirely spoiled and selfish individual who might not have known better because HIS support system didn’t teach him what marriage is all about. Sometimes young and single people have “stupid” people in their lives pumping them up with nonsense and that is why they are still single or remain single the rest of their lives. They need to take a din v’chesbon regarding who is coaching them or who is influencing them and maybe ask their happily married friends and relatives why they are happily married. They might be surprised to find out that life does not revolve around only ONE person! If they asked their own Rav they might find out that they are supposed to get married because they are only half a person until they do. They are incomplete and only a wife will complete them. But if they are selfish beings how can they ever, ever be complete?
If you consider others “damaged goods” how will you ever find the one who completes you?
please do not make comments about other posters
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