July 30, 2008 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #587930
How can people Daven wearing Crocs on their feet? You are standing infront of a king!July 30, 2008 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #620585JosephParticipant
bugnot – You answered your own question!
Same with open chest shirts, shorts, etc.July 30, 2008 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #620586yoshiMember
Why don’t you keep your eyes in the sidder instead of people’s feet? But, if you would like one reason to make you “happy” crocs were the only shoes i could wear when i had foot surgery, i was wearing them for several months.July 30, 2008 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #620587WolfishMusingsParticipant
You could ask the same question about anything less than one’s best. Why not ask how anyone can daven in anything less than one’s finest?
I suppose you can state that since we have this audience with the King at a minimum of three times a day (and, in reality, as often as we want, since you can daven at almost any time), we have (for better or for worse) a familiarity with Him which allows us to approach Him in our less than best.
That being said, however, I would tend to agree that Crocs are probably inappropriate.
The WolfJuly 30, 2008 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #620588ThinkingMember
And do you know anyone who would greet a king w/o a suit and tie?
Also when was the last time it was in style to greet a king with a sports jacket and some big outdated black hat thrown lazily on the back of your head???July 30, 2008 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #620589mdlevineMember
I do agree that people should dress appropriately for Shul this includes all manner of dress not just what is on their feet while standing in front of the King (with a capital “K”) of all kings (with a small “k”).
However, be happy people are coming to Shul. Perhaps they all have a valid reason for wearing crocs.
Now, if this still bothers you so much to the point that you forgot in front of Whom you are standing – then I suggest that you do not attend Shul M’Shabbos – not this one coming up but the next one – the 9th of Menachem Av. Additionally, you may want to avoid attending on the 10th of Tishrei also.
and a reminder to all, remember to bring your non-leather footwear (slippers, canvas sneakers, dare I say it – crocs, etc.) to Shul with you E’Shabbos on the 7th of Menachem-Av, as you will need them once Shabbos is over.July 30, 2008 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #620590bugyesParticipant
you are 100% right. i dont know what those people who wear them are thinking. if they met with president bush they wouldn’t wear them.July 30, 2008 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #620591Control the Gedolim?Member
This is rather silly. Are we just going to go through everything that we one time saw someone doing assur and debate about it on YWNJuly 30, 2008 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #620592feivelParticipant
better than davening with a blue light blinking in your earJuly 30, 2008 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #620593williMember
I sometimes daven with my (nice) slippers. Anything wrong with that?July 30, 2008 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #620594
i was was just using crocs as an example.July 30, 2008 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #620595Control the Gedolim?Member
GREAT NEWS. There’s a book that says what’s wrong and what’s not. Its by the bestselling author Rabbi Yisrael Meir Kagan. It is called “Mishna Brura” and it is the answer to all your problems. Every last one of them.July 30, 2008 9:59 pm at 9:59 pm #620596williMember
I’m a woman. What’s wrong with davening kabbalas Shabbos friday night while wearing a pretty robe & elegant slippers? Many people do it & it never occured to me that it’s not proper.July 30, 2008 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #620597jphoneMember
This is very silly.July 30, 2008 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #620598
What are crocs? Do they bite?July 31, 2008 12:22 am at 12:22 am #620599
An even more prevelant problem is when people come to daven in a shul without a hat or even a jacket.
Yes, sometimes it may be it was unavailable or some other legitimate excuse. But it happens far too commonly for this to be the norm. Not to say chas vshalom it is very common, but it does happen far too often.July 31, 2008 1:20 am at 1:20 am #620600mdlevineMember
I need to amend my post above. I am not comfortable with what I wrote the last paragraph should have read:
and a reminder to all, If we are CV’S still in the Galus and need to observe Tisha B’Av as a Ta’anis this year, remember to bring your non-leather footwear (slippers, canvas sneakers, dare I say it – crocs, etc.) to Shul with you E’Shabbos on the 7th of Menachem-Av, as we may still need them once Shabbos is over. May HaShem send the Geula Shaleima speedily.July 31, 2008 1:50 am at 1:50 am #620601
Bogen, the minhag in America is that to meet the President, one would not wear a hat. So it would seem to be unnecessary. The Poskim seem to stress that it depends on the minhag hamakom, and a yarmulka is sufficient.
As far as a jacket, one probably would put on a suit and tie for the Pres, but few do for davening.
The poskim also say that in hot places, even short pants are fine, since that is what is normally worn. Some people find the heat of a jacket very bothersome, as well.
Finally, the gemara says that one of the amoraim would davka take off his jacket (shadi gleemaih) when he davened in an eis tzara, so as not to appear choshuv. It is more anivusdig to appear plain.
So as usual, if you are mechaven lshem shomayim, that is what really matters.July 31, 2008 2:15 am at 2:15 am #620602jphoneMember
I still remember my days as a camp counselor and the policy that anyone over bar mitzvah was required to wear a hat and jacket. what I specifically remember were those who came from a backround that was not “black hat” in fact the hats were colorless, or shall I say they did not wear hats to davening. Push came to shove and camp policy won out. One guy purchased a hat in the disney store that had ears that flapped when you pulled a string under the chin. I’m not sure how it awakened anyone to daven with more kavanah, BUT he was wearing a hat! Thats all that seemed to matter.July 31, 2008 2:46 am at 2:46 am #620605NOW are you happyMember
Since when do “the poskim” have a right to argue with the Chai Adam. Not me, the Chai Adam.July 31, 2008 2:53 am at 2:53 am #620606ujmParticipant
No hat is needed in shul because you don’t need it for the President, and no jacket is needed in shul because you do need it for the President!? Very smart.
Can you conjure up any other methods to throw out minhugim?July 31, 2008 3:12 am at 3:12 am #620608
Now you are happy: Say what? Please see mishna berurah O”C 91 s”k 13.July 31, 2008 3:32 am at 3:32 am #620614
Pashuteh Yid-Some people find a shirt very bothersome, so surely you’ll be maskim I can daven without one.
I love how some modern folks will make every kula necessary to get what they want. To daven without a hat and jacket in shul is disrespectful to oneself, disrespectful to the shul, disrespectful to the mispallelim, and disrespectful to the RBS’O.July 31, 2008 4:08 am at 4:08 am #620615JOSEPHAMember
TO ALL THOSE THAT REQUIRE A HAT AND JACKET, WOULD YOU ATTEND YOUR OWN WEDDING WITH A HAT AND JACKET YOU USUALLY WEAR WHEN YOU DAVEN (NOT MATCHING)? THE ANSWER WE ALL KNOW IS YOU GO OUT AND BUY A NEW SUIT FOR THE OCCASION. HOW MUCH MORE SO YOU SHOULD WEAR A NEW SUIT TO DAVEN TO HASHEM! OBVOISLY THAT IS NOT THE ACCEPTIBLE MINHAG AND EVERYONE NEEDS TO FOLLOW THEIR MINHAG WETHER THEY WEAR A HAT AND JACKET OR NOT. CROCKS ARE A FORM OF SHOES AND ARE NO DIFFERENT THAN WORN OUT DRESS SHOES! IF YOU WERE GOING TO MEET THE PRESIDENT YOU WOULD GO WITH YOUR SHABBOS SHOES NOT THE WEEKDAY ONES THAT ARE ALREADY ORN OUT.July 31, 2008 4:14 am at 4:14 am #620616slabodkaParticipant
In terms of the hat issue-JFK was the first president in history not to wear a hat in public. He went out on a limb, trying to create a new fad. It caught on, but that does not take away from the inherent chashivus of wearing a head covering.People wore hats for thousands of years. That is why we wear hats even though it is not the current “style”.July 31, 2008 6:22 am at 6:22 am #620617NOW are you happyMember
Since when does the president have a din of a melech? You see pictures of the president with people who wear whatever they want. The president himself wears whatever he wants. My brother saw a picture of him wearing shorts. Does that make them “fit for a king”? Kal v’chomer for the common person. No rayahs from the president please. They are silly.
mishna berurah O”C 91 s”k 13.
First of all, there is no other mishna berurah except O”C.
More importantly, if one goes to a conservative or reform temple, are their values sufficient? Clearly not. Clearly the standards are set by the mekomei torah in the area. If you know of any makom torah where they daven without hats and jackets, keep it to yourself because I will simply contest your assertion that it really is a makom torah.July 31, 2008 6:48 am at 6:48 am #620619Think BIGMember
You are obviously a Talmid chacham who knows alot. Just wondering, do you identify yourself with the Yeshiva (yeshivish) world?July 31, 2008 8:09 am at 8:09 am #620620mamashtakahMember
You forgot to add the words “in my humble opinion.” To make such sweeping generalizations about being disrespectful is being, well, disrespectful.
There are many people here, chashuv people who daven with a minyan 3 times a day, who learn every day, who do not have TVs in their houses, who would stongly disagree with you. None of them wear a hat to daven, and many of them wear sandals or Crocs.July 31, 2008 11:41 am at 11:41 am #620621ujmParticipant
A Yirei Shmayim wears a hat and jacket.
A Yirei Shmayim doesn’t seek excuses, its too hot, etc. too daven without kavod i.e. by not wearing a hat and jacket.July 31, 2008 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #620622cantoresqMember
What’s more important, the hat, the davening or davening in a hat? Have you all forgotten that the vast majority of Jews, don’t daven at all? And hats and foorwear are what bothers you? Sheesh!!!July 31, 2008 1:08 pm at 1:08 pm #620625irhakodeshMember
This discussion is very scary to me. Why are we trying to “oser” what other people do? There are five “bein adam lamakom” dibrot and five “bein adam lachaveiros.” Whose business is it what people wear on their feet. I am certain that HKBH accepts sincere t’fillot from a croc footed person as easily as someone in full hat/suit getup who is not using proper kavanah, but worrying about the guy with crocs standing next to him. Get real!!!!!!!!!!!! Do any of you REALLY believe that HKBH cares more about feet than souls??????July 31, 2008 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #620629lgbgMember
so when you daven shacharis, mincha, and maariv, your dressed with your most expensive suit, clean white shirt, shined shoes, silk tie, no phone attached to you in any which way, and are wearing your shabbos hat?
because if not, id like to know how YOU daven in front of the melech.
im not trying to bash you, just trying to tell you, look at yourself, atleast the men in crocs are coming to shul and taking time to daven.July 31, 2008 1:36 pm at 1:36 pm #620630
irhakodesh, If someone is dressed INAPPROPRIATELY in SHUL by davening, it is unlikely he is having kavana.July 31, 2008 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #620631noitallmrParticipant
SHAYCHAS???? Just because Hashem will answer our teffilos becuase he’s a Kel Molei Rachamim, we should at least give Hashem the respect He deserves and come to Davening wearing appropriate clothing. Since Crocs are nowadays B’geder shoes, I don’t see anything very wrong with them.
But again you have to be Don Lecaf Zchus, I am wearing crocs right now because i have an oversized bandage on my toe- I get quite a few comments but I don’t give because I know I’m doing the right thing.
So instead of busying yourself with everyone elses clothes during davening, take care of yourself, do what you think is right and Hashem should answer all our Teffilos.July 31, 2008 1:48 pm at 1:48 pm #620632tzippiMember
Mamashtakeh, funny you bring up sandals because people used to wear sandals. Just check out one of Hanoch Teller’s book covers. (IIRC, It’s a Small Word After All.) Is it that people don’t wear sandals now because styles have changed, or because we have “evolved” in our understanding of what’s bekovedik? I wonder if other people out there would disenfranchise the bnei Torah of the 1930’s in their small brims and brown suits (or the bnei Torah of the ’70s and ’80s in their grey suits).
I think this topic is a bit of a crock.July 31, 2008 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #620641anonymouseParticipant
The same way you could daven with holes in your yarmulka, you could also daven with holes in your shoes!!July 31, 2008 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #620642workingmanMember
Bogen, I don’t really think it’s fair for you to come out here and judge people. I myself go to minyan many many times w/o a hat and jacket. Therefore, according to YOU, I am disrespectful and have no kavana. Forgive me for asking, but do you have a direct line to Hakodosh Baruch Hu? Are you so perfect that you have a right to judge? Take a good look in the mirror and think about Tisha B’av. It’s people like YOU that remind me why the Bais Hamikdash was destroyed. Maybe, from now on, I will just stop davening with a minyan if I don’t have a hat or jacket, because YOU might be there to judge me. I would say what’s really on my mind, but it would get censored.July 31, 2008 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #620643
I daven in a white shirt, dark pants, shoes, hat, and jacket and my phone is on silent. (i wear a white shirt and i dont think there is anything wrong with a colored shirt)July 31, 2008 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #620644YeshivaRodefKesefParticipant
Forget the presidents, they are nothing more than a bunch of poiers.
The Ribono shel olom is our father. Do you think that your father really cares about your mode of dress when you come speak to him?
Thats how I look at it, and thats how you need to feel.July 31, 2008 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #620646gedalyaMember
To the one who said that we should keep our eyes in the siddur not on people’s feet – that’s a little hard when a boy is standing next to you with neon yellow crocs (maaseh shehayah)July 31, 2008 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #620648Think BIGMember
Bogen: Whoah! That is so extremely warped. Are you, by extention saying that if you wear the right clothes, you ARE davening b’kavana?
Whats going on here is really nit-picking. All the hat-wearers would probably agree that in communities where hats are not worn at all, as in the frum mizrachim or perhaps the yemenites, the hat is not necessary. The issue is not the hat but coming to the RBSO with respect. The mizrachim go to weddings without jackets, ties or hats, and many of them daven with real sincerety.
But in communities where a person does where his hat for formal occasions, by not wearing it to daven, he may be showing disrespect. It all has to do with where you come from. Does canteresque even own a black hat? (I may be wrong, just assuming based on your posts) That doesn’t invalidate him as a Jew.
The point is, its not about the hat or crocs, and this is not a one-size fits all deal. It’s about showing respect to Tefillah. Saying that every jew must wear a black hat is simply absurd. Do you think the Rambam or Rashi wore a black hat?July 31, 2008 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #620649gavra_at_workParticipant
A Yirei Shmayim wears a hat and jacket.
A Yirei Shmayim doesn’t seek excuses, its too hot, etc. too daven without kavod i.e. by not wearing a hat and jacket.
Funny post, but I’m not sure whether to laugh or cry.
I just hope Hashem doesn’t judge Yiras Shomayim based on whether you wear a hat or not (or hat size)! What will all the women do?
Can someone wear a Fez or a Turban (like most rishoynim did?) will that make someone into a yarai shomayim too?July 31, 2008 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #620650
UJM: I said no hat is necessary, but pointed out that one amora took off his jacket in eis tzara. I feel that probably a jacket would be necessary, if you use the geder of omed lifnei hamelech, although some seem to be meikil here, as well.
Now you are happy: Please learn a zman at the Yeshiva of Sederot whose Rosh Yeshiva is a huge talmid chochom, and a huge mensch. Watch how the bnai yeshiva try to be mechazek a downtrodden, frightened and depressed town. I doubt they wear hats and jackets there, but if that is not a makom torah, then we must be members of a different religion. I believe Reb Zalman Nechemiah and other gedolim periodically say shiurim there. Obviously, the heter to daven in hot places in shorts and the like was used by the people of EY for many years, since it is hot, and A/C wasn’t available in many places.
Think Big, I am not a Talmid Chochom, just a poshuteh yid with a lot of ahavas yisroel. I don’t know anymore who I identify with. I think the modern focus too highly on entertainment, while the chareidim do not focus enough on ahavas yisroel (outside their own group), and put down secular knowledge.
I have said here many times that we have a break in the nation. If a chareidi tells a modern person to give up movies, he will tell the chareidi, you are from a different world, since you also want me to give up college, as well, and to hate the state of Israel, (which to a modern person is the most ridiculous thing he ever heard to hate his own Jewish state) therefore I am not bound by your views on movies, either.
The chareidim have much mesirus nefesh for learning and shmiras hamitzvos, but have not been able to adapt it to a modern society. They either deny the existence of things they don’t want to hear, or else ban them. They are afraid of secular knowledge, when in fact it can be used to raise one’s level of avodas hashem by seeing the gadlus of the RBSH in the way he runs the entire world. (Do you have any clue of the complexity of even a single nerve cell. Did you know that in the brain a single cell can receive inputs from over 150,000 other nerve cells? Scientists are working as hard as they can to understand this complexity.) It can also be used to make a parnasa and to create a sense of ahavas hashem for giving me the ability to make a parnasa through the gifts that the RBSH gave me. It can also be used to heal those who are sick and handicapped and paralyzed. (There is nothing a sick person wants more than refuah. It is the biggest chesed there is to cure him.) So when I hear a chareidi knocking science, which is quite common, I think he must be from another planet.
(BTW check the Rambam in Hilchos Kiddush Hachodesh (CH 17, 24) who says that anything proven scientifically even by goyim has as much validity in halacha as something told to us by the neviim. They are both emes.) (I used Bar-Ilan CD.)
So I feel that the modern need to improve in many areas, but they will not, because of the negative attitudes of the chareidim. The modern need to work more on their midos, they don’t talk as refined as the chareidim who are often more eidel, and sometimes the modern get a bit too over-confident with themselves, and don’t have the same softness of heart needed to do chesed and the same dikduk in mitzvos. However, the chareidim have the training necessary for hasmadah, amkus in learning, chesed and gentle speech and anivus, but when it comes to the modern or the tzionim, suddenly all the chareidi’s good midos are thrown out the window, and he talks the most vile and hateful way against the tzioni and the state and secular knowledge. I went to try to visit a certain chareidi godol in EY a few years ago in the afternoon, and was told he was resting, but will be at mincha at 3. So I thought, good, that is only in 20 minutes, before I have to leave. But his grandson explained, but that is not daylight time, since he doesn’t hold of the medina (or something of that nature) who enacted daylight savings time, and keeps his watch set to regular time. I personally can’t make heads or tails out of that attitude. Where is it getting us?
I have said before that the only way to bridge this gap and reach shleimus in our nation and bring the geula is to make a giant asifa where the chareidi and the IDF come together, and the chareidim show true overflowing ahavah and thanks towards the soldiers, with gedolei yisroel making speeches of thanks (and possibly apologizing as well for the historic negative attitude towards the state). And then they dance with the yeshiva bochurim and the soldiers (Lshem ahavas yisroel, not lshem kiruv). I am sure that many soldiers will be overcome with ahavah as well, and will start on their way to becoming frum. The media will come and report on this wonderful unity, and it will be a kiddush hashem ayom vnora, and moshiach will show up, as well.July 31, 2008 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #620651Feif UnParticipant
Bogen, ujm: You’re saying what you do because of what you’re used to! In many areas, there are plenty of good frum people who don’t where a hat or jacket to davening. That’s doesn’t mean they’re not yarei shamayim, and it doesn’t make it disrespectful either. You decide what respect is based on your views. Well, not everyone shares the same views as you. Does it say in the Shulchan Aruch or Mishna Berurah that you MUST wear a hat and jacket to davening?July 31, 2008 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #620652Native IsraeliMember
you know this talk is reminding me of a beautiful story i once witnessed
my family was once driving home from the mountains, and my father stopped at the gas station and saw like 3-4 yidden there and he was thinking maybe they could have a minyan there for mincha..anyway this bareheaded man comes over to my father and asks him if he should arrange a minyan–shocked my father says sure great..neways he puts on a hat that was in his car organizes a minyan….and end of the story is my father says he was amazed by his kavana
so i don’t think its about the crocs, the suit, the hat or whatever…July 31, 2008 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #620653illini07Member
A REAL yirei shomayim pays attention to his own kavanah, and doesn’t worry about what others are wearing. Who are you to decide who is a yirei shomayim based on footwear? I know several people who are true yirei shomayim that don’t wear hats or jackets (with the exception of the shabbos suit) – not because it is inconvenient or uncomfortable for them, but rather because it is what they grew up doing, and have always done.
Do you think HKBH doesn’t know what is going on within the heart of each person? Stop worrying so much about others, and work on yourself.July 31, 2008 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #620654JewessMember
Some people never cease to amaze and amuse me…
I hate Crocs because I find them unchic (sorry all you Crocs lovers) but do you really think God cares whether a guy or girl is wearing Crocs, Manolos or whatever it is you wear to pray?
By the way…not every Orthodox guy dresses in white shirt black hat and jacket. I think God loves every sincere person’s prayers no matter how he or she is clothed.July 31, 2008 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #620655irhakodeshMember
Bogen, how can you know that “If someone is dressed INAPPROPRIATELY in SHUL by davening, it is unlikely he is having kavana.” INAPROPRIATELY = crocs on the feet? Give me a break!!!!!!!! I hope that HKBH judges you easier than you seem to judge others. How in the world can you pretend to know that someones kavanah is low because of what he/she is wearing on their feet? Moshe Rabbeinu spoke to HKBH barefoot. I wonder how he was able to manage his kavana?July 31, 2008 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #620657YeshivesheHockerMember
Could anyone explain what’s wrong with crocs?July 31, 2008 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #620658The Big OneParticipant
Ehrlicha Yidden always wear, barring extenuating circumstances, a hat and jacket in Shul by davening and not shorts and crocs. Some people (namely those that refuse to honor Hashem, the Kehila, the Mispallelim, and themself) may take offence and start yelling and screaming it ain’t so. But lets call a spade a spade and stand up for the truth without worry.
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