Defunding Police

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  • #1870237
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    Thie following is from the document Ilhan Omer uploaded:

    “But what about armed bank robbers, murderers, and supervillains?

    “Crime isn’t random. Most of the time, it happens when someone has been unable to meet their basic needs through other means. By shifting money away from the police and toward services that actually meet those needs, we’ll be able to get to a place where people won’t need to rob banks.

    “Sure, in this long transition process, we may need a small specialized class of public servants whose job it is to respond to violent crimes. But part of what we’re talking about here is what role police play in our society. Right now, cops don’t just respond to violent crimes; they make needless traffic stops, arrest petty drug users, and engage in a wide range of “broken windows policing” behaviors that only serve to keep more people under the thumb of the criminal justice system.”

    BTW I noticed that she retweeted someone that says that of cpurse she doeant mean to get rid of police all she means is Camden. So IDK which one she really means but based on the totality of all her wacky שיטות, ii am going with the police causes crime שיטה

    #1870262
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    My opinion about this is first of all filter out whatever police unions or community activists are saying. The police unions do not have the civiloans in mind just like the school unoons dont have the children in mind. Community activists should be ignored since I don’t know what their end game is (dehumanizing all cops is something that is so irrational that can only be understood in the context of a much larger attack on our way of life).

    That being said, I believe that the way policing and criminal justice is done is cyclic: There is too much crime. More policing and arrests. Crime goes down. Too many cops in quantity and tok much militarization and aggressiveness on the street. Police Brutality. Less policing and arrests. Crime goes up…. I think this actually is a healthy situation to be in, because we tweek our system to be responsive to changing dynamics. Everyone here surely agrees that there needs to be a balance between broken windows theory policing and deescalation of police aggression.

    #1870301
    Health
    Participant

    SB – “BTW I noticed that she retweeted someone that says that of cpurse she doeant mean to get rid of police all she means is Camden”

    Either she does or she doesn’t. The Fact is the Camden County PD was willing to take over Camden City.
    The reality is No one is willing to take over Policing Minneapolis. See my post on page 1.
    So will we have PD in Minneapolis or Not? I think that we won’t, but Right Now the Libs are too scared to tell the truth.
    Minneapolis will look like East St. Louis, one of the Crime Capitals in the US!

    #1870305
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Two,
    g. As of now, municipal police departments divide cities into defined areas, and dived uniformed officers into shifts. Each shift covers the whole precinct, with most officers getting steady roles. [Accident reporting. Routine home emergencies. Patrols. Etc.] After an officer has been working a precinct for some time, (two years?) they ca apply to join a specific unit. [Drugs. Trafficking. Illegal guns. Cyber. Anti-terror. Etc.] There are certain events that require cooperation of many officers. [Siyum hashas. Presidential appearances. Riots. Highway closures.] (I pulled this together from various sites. Maybe someone can clear this up for us.)
    In response to your statement about needing “a competent and strong police force” for violent crime, I understand ‘Defund’ to mean a much smaller troop of everyday uniformed officers, with the bulk of 911 first responders being social workers, mental health professionals, and community service officers. Most of the specialized units will be merged into the county’s and state’s police forces. There will remain a well trained group of officers for each shift to handle dangerous situations. Something like a SWAT team with less training and gear. In this setup, large gatherings and highway construction will hire private firms for security and traffic control.

    #1870310
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Two,
    h. “What is this based on” Factually speaking, I made it up. Irvine is a modern and wealthy city, full of education centers. Ferguson is low on funds, with an undereducated and poor population. No police policy could fix the disparity. Which is just as good. I doubt the residents of Ferguson would appreciate living in Irvine.
    i. Racism does not have to be systematic to ruin the designs of good governance. Add in class struggles, corruption, and lack of oversight, and all it takes is a few racist cops (or politicians) to make it about life and death. It does not have to be one specific issue. As long as the government is ignoring a group of the population (or an area of the city) one cannot argue that crimes will not happen because of the ‘peace of the country’. Criminals have to be cowed by society at large. Not by conflict with just the Police.
    The advocates for ‘Defund’ think the crime rate will go down. Because of a stronger sense of community, less resentment in poor communities, and a more accountable police force. I think we can agree that as is today, law enforcement cannot solve the drug problem in inner city communities.

    #1870312
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Two,
    j.”This means that rape, physical assault, armed robberies, and violent gangs are preferred over the supposed systemic racism.” Again, I understand the idea is to ‘Defund’ while getting better policing. These neighborhoods, do not rely on the Police for protection from violent criminals. Just because the Police are downsized in the bad neighborhoods, it does not mean less policing in the suburbs.
    Another view, is that there is a way out of violent crime. There is no way out of a communal system that does not serve the people in the community.

    #1870314
    Abba_S
    Participant

    Many of these ideas sound good on paper but what happens in practice is a different story. Here in New York the concept of no bail sounded nice until hundreds were killed by repeat offenders who were let out of jail.

    #1870428
    2scents
    Participant

    n0m

    “g. As of now, municipal police departments divide cities into defined areas, and dived uniformed officers into shifts. Each shift covers the whole precinct, with most officers getting steady roles. [Accident reporting. Routine home emergencies. Patrols. Etc.] After an officer has been working a precinct for some time, (two years?) they ca apply to join a specific unit. [Drugs. Trafficking. Illegal guns. Cyber. Anti-terror. Etc.] There are certain events that require cooperation of many officers. [Siyum hashas. Presidential appearances. Riots. Highway closures.] (I pulled this together from various sites. Maybe someone can clear this up for us.)
    In response to your statement about needing “a competent and strong police force” for violent crime, I understand ‘Defund’ to mean a much smaller troop of everyday uniformed officers, with the bulk of 911 first responders being social workers, mental health professionals, and community service officers. Most of the specialized units will be merged into the county’s and state’s police forces. There will remain a well trained group of officers for each shift to handle dangerous situations. Something like a SWAT team with less training and gear. In this setup, large gatherings and highway construction will hire private firms for security and traffic control.”

    Not really sure how removing certain units or divisions from the police department, will change anything. Especially the smaller departments that do not have all these different units that you mentioned.

    Also, why LESS training and LESS gear will a benefit for the community?

    When a crime happens, we need the police to be at the location of the crime in an expedited fashion, this requires a set amount of active officers on the road. Otherwise, the criminals have a huge headstart, can commit whatever crime they want, and get away with it.

    I am not even sure why we are disagreeing about this.

    #1870429
    2scents
    Participant

    n0m

    ” I think we can agree that as is today, law enforcement cannot solve the drug problem in inner city communities.”

    I am not sure that I would agree to that, but I understand why some people would make that argument, especially those that are looking to frequently break the law, and those that want more freedom to commit crimes and market illegal drugs.

    #1870433
    2scents
    Participant

    n0m

    “j.”This means that rape, physical assault, armed robberies, and violent gangs are preferred over the supposed systemic racism.” Again, I understand the idea is to ‘Defund’ while getting better policing. These neighborhoods, do not rely on the Police for protection from violent criminals. Just because the Police are downsized in the bad neighborhoods, it does not mean less policing in the suburbs.”

    You made a statement, “These neighborhoods, do not rely on the Police for protection from violent criminals”

    What are you basing this on?

    I believe we rely on law enforcement to enforce laws and also to protect the vulnerable, especially during an active crime. At least that is what I would do if a crime were to be committed against myself or my family, I would reach out to the police and hope they arrive as fast as possible.

    #1870435
    2scents
    Participant

    Abba_S

    “Many of these ideas sound good on paper but what happens in practice is a different story. ”

    None of this sounds good on paper.

    #1870579
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Abba,
    That is exactly why I do not have an opinion. The current setup, is not good in reality. There is no reason to trade one bad situation for another. If the new phase will continue with commitment, trust, and a bit of goodwill all around, it is probably worth a shot. Even if it seems like a long shot.

    #1870587
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Two,
    g. First off, a clarification. I meant less training and gear than a SWAT team, which will still be a lot more than they have now. Because they will not have to fund many different units. And, there will be a major reduction in the amount of salaried officers. Which will enable an increase of pay to all remaining officers. This part is (reportedly) supported by some notable police veterans.
    when a crime happens….” Not anymore, criminals are usually apprehended through technology. Phone records. Video surveillance. A standard burglary today, the Police come down. They interview the bystanders, hunt for fingerprints, take videos. Go back to the station and file a report. Run everything through a computer and then look for the suspect. (Or, they say oh you must mean him. He lives on the worst block in town. We do not go there anymore. Next time the SWAT team goes there, they will pick him up. He already has 3 open warrants.) There is no need for Police here. A CSO can take down the information and record the evidence. [Some places have been doing this for decades.] If, the burglary is ongoing, than the trained unit comes. And they are trained to track him and arrest him on the spot.
    “Not really sure..” Nobody is certain how any changes will play out. A lot depends on the residents and the politicians. [The way I differentiate between a good activist and a bad one, is if they blame everything on the current scapegoat. Do not believe them. They are in it for themselves, and are grasping an opportunity, A good activist, will always point out that it is up to the community to make the most of their chances.] But the idea here is that the less Police on the streets, the more it will be about community safety. When there is just the necessary amount to keep the peace, the less ability the department can be used against the residents.

    #1870590
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Two,
    j. I lived in a notorious neighborhood in NYC for two years. The Police were called for an ongoing murder attempts. Somebody drawing a gun. Extreme fist fights. Arson at night. [Gun shots? No way! Stabbing? Maybe if it was a young person. They would tell the dispatcher, that the victim has a terrible burn, or fell of the roof so that only EMS would come.] A large amount of the neighborhood had open warrants, or was on probation, or was doing something unlawful. (Drugs or guns.)

    #1870714
    Abba_S
    Participant

    I think the major problem is how society views the police. If a cop tells you to do something you do it. Don’t try to resist as happened in this case. You can always appeal later. If he didn’t resist he would have been brought to the police station and most likely gotten a desk appearance and released. Instead he resisted and is now six feet under

    #1870735
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“A large amount of the neighborhood had open warrants, or was on probation, or was doing something unlawful. (Drugs or guns.)”

    You just proved that the Liberal system doesn’t work.
    It’s called Crime & Punishment.
    Now you know why the Lib politicians cater to the Criminals.
    How come they Don’t care about the Law-abiding minorities that are forced to live in those neighborhoods?
    Real Punishment can be either the Death penalty or Real Life Imprisonment.
    Then we can determine how many Cops we Really Need!

    #1870971
    2scents
    Participant

    Wonderful!

    The Seattle police chief posted that there are rapes, robberies and all sort of crimes that they cannot get to.

    A win for the criminals.

    #1871022
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Abba,
    The evidence that he resisted, is very, very, sketchy. At best, he was intoxicated or nervous. “If a cop tells you to do something you do it.” In a Police State. A story in BP. Teenager sitting in a parked vehicle. Cop: Move the car! Teen: I don’t have a license. Cop. Move the car! Teen: I don’t have a license. Cop: Move the [email protected]#$%^ car, or I will have you arrested! teen moves car. Cop books him for driving with out a license. [Teen paid court fees, and had one year of probation.]

    #1871080
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Two,
    k. My friends that are non-violent and are okay with police, buy, sell, and take drugs in safe suburban neighborhoods. The Police have not been able to stop the spread of drugs in these communities, even though there is a lot of cooperation between residents and the Police. How in the world would Police stop drugs in Fashion District, LA Garfield Park, CHI or South Bronx, LA?

    #1871089
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    If you knew a way to punish people out of drug dependency, you could be a millionaire.
    Death penalty and life imprisonment is something to consider when a detective cannot fabricate evidence and invent suspects to advance his career. But that is a different topic. Are you seriously advocating the death penalty for drug use?

    #1871093
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    Hey, if it worked im in

    #1871361
    Health
    Participant

    nOMesorah – “Are you seriously advocating the death penalty for drug use?”

    I’m advocating the Death Penalty for the Drug Pushers. If there are No more Pushers, there will be Much Less Drug Abusers or Users!

    #1871921
    Abba_S
    Participant

    Nomes I said don’t resists arrest if he had gotten into the car he probably would have been released after a back ground check to see there are no outstanding warrents. As far as New York being a Police State you can always move. As far as your friend in BP I finded it very strange as a few years ago an elderly man pulled over inorder to talk on his phone and a cop tried to arrest him and there was a full scale riot. Also you can disobey the police when it’s illegal. What he should have done was get out of the car and let the cop move the car. This probably was a case which was plea bargained down. This is a very sketch case where you there? Was a civilian compliant made against the officer? I am not a lawyer but the benifit of the doubt goes to the defendent who in this case is a police officer so the burden of proof is on you to prove that F~loyd wasn’t resisting arrest.

    #1873340
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    Who is the drug pusher today? The maker of oxicontyn? The kid down the block who bought a bit extra so he could sell to his neighbor? What would the Death Penalty for Drug Pushers Law look like?

    #1873343
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Abba,
    I do not live in NYS anymore. I was not referring to NYS or any specific state. If we must listen to the Police even when they are taking advantage of us, that boils down to now constitutional rights.
    It is a sketchy story. I was not there. You say what the civilian should have done. The civilian is not getting paid to do a job, and has no way to be trained how to deal with an obnoxious cop. It is too much to ask, for every Police Officer (especially on the beat) to be properly trained?
    I can’t get the Floyd story straight. Was he in the car at one point? Partly in the car? Not sure why it matters. If you cannot control an intoxicated individual without killing him, you are awful at policing.

    #1873450
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“Who is the drug pusher today? The maker of oxicontyn?”

    No, enough with your Lib posts!

    “The kid down the block who bought a bit extra so he could sell to his neighbor?”

    That would STOP that from Occuring!

    What would the Death Penalty for Drug Pushers Law look like?

    Use your imagination.

    #1873906
    Health
    Participant

    “Ilahn omar- “The Minneapolis Police Department is rotten to the root and so when we dismantle it, we get rid of that cancer and we allow for something beautiful to rise.”

    Last night & the night before, something beautiful has arisen – only 8 people were shot. This is much better than the night before this, because even though just 7 people were shot, one was killed. I know – the Real problem in this Country is Police Racism, Not Violent Crime! Thank you Ms. Omar & all the liberals for creating the US to be a Third World Country!

    #1873942
    Abba_S
    Participant

    There was a Black Lives Matter rally in Ohio with about 80 activist in a town with just 6 cops. There was a counter rally with hundreds of armed whites One of the whites sucker punch a black activist who complained the cop did nothing. The Police say they didn’t see it happen, took the report and issued an arrest warrant. You can’t have it both ways cut the number of police and then expect protection.

    #1874516
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    When this law is written, please make sure that it would not include giving tylenol to someone with a headache. I do not know what goes on in your house. But our communities would be drastically affected by your ideas. [Even more than abolishing all Police.]

    #1874551
    som1
    Participant

    nomesorah i think health was being sarcastic

    #1874644
    Abba_S
    Participant

    21 people shot in 24 hours in NYC since probably most of the victims are people of color I guess defunding the police means Black Lives Don’t Matter.

    #1877220
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Abba,
    Police do not prevent homicides anymore….. America is complicated.

    #1877847
    Abba_S
    Participant

    nO Tactic such as stop and frisk and having undercover office patrolling in unmarked cars keep guns off the streets resulting in fewer homicides. Getting rid of both is why there is so much shooting. Blacks are going to be the victims in most of these shootings.

    #1877906
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Abba,
    The turnstyle jumper ‘quality of life’ arrest deserves mention. It was largely stopped because it reached a point that, the last thing anyone with a rap sheet would do was jump a turnstyle. ‘Stop and frisk’ also quickly ran it’s course. Eventually the criminals evolve. Undercover cops, I have no idea why it was stopped. I doubt there is a good reason. I’ll look into it.
    There is so much shooting because this Mayor has no idea what personal life is like. The education system to him is a way to feed starving kids. That is nice, but if he would focus on giving those kids an education to be able to feed themselves……. Similarly, he would take away as many competent police and leave the idiots in place. Any civil rights initiative is lost on this mayor. What a waste!

    #1877996
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“‘Stop and frisk’ also quickly ran it’s course.”

    No, it did Not. The Federal judge found NYC Program unconstitutional. The program continues, even in NYC, but on a much smaller usage. The problem was NYC’s implemention of Stop & Frisk.

    #1878190
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    True, true. But I read somewhere that after the first year the number of beneficial stops fell sharply. If you were carrying or packing, you made sure not to be stopped. as someone who lived in such neighborhoods, I saw it myself. Any time the Police do anything that involves one of the locals, it is like a Teacher doing a demonstration. Everyone, including those indoors watches intently every move the Police will make. It could mean prison or death if they don’t learn well. This is why I can’t imagine policing these neighborhoods without the Undercover Units.

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