Defunding Police

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  • #1888180
    DovidBT
    Participant

    The Talmud says you do. Our judicial system does not meet even the minimal standards demanded by the Torah for Noachide courts.

    We’re obligated to observe the “law of the land”, regardless of whether it’s consistent with Talmudic law.

    The police executed him without trial, without due process.

    He died due to his failure to cooperate with the police, who were required by the situation to use force. Whether they did anything unlawful will be determined by the on-going legal process.

    #1888211
    som1
    Participant

    “The Talmud says you do. Our judicial system does not meet even the minimal standards demanded by the Torah for Noachide courts.”

    what stupidity he pleaded guilty

    #1888219
    Health
    Participant

    Oh Charlie, -“Had Geroge Floyd been a Jew, WE would be the ones rioting.”
    “While US Jews don’t usually riot,…”

    Hypocrisy at it’s Finest!
    You were talking about American Jews.

    #1888224
    Health
    Participant

    Oh Charlie, -“The Talmud says you do. Our judicial system does not meet even the minimal standards demanded by the Torah for Noachide courts.”

    In this case it does!
    I surely Hope that you don’t represent YU on your Torah knowledge!
    For Noachide courts, acc. to the Rambam, all you need is one Witness & one Judge.
    The witness said that he didn’t pay for his cigarettes, because the bill was counterfeit.
    Then the Judge Cop gave him the Correct Torah Punishment!

    #1888395
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Som,
    Stupidity or not, it is the reality in american slums. Among the low class, it is common to plead guilty for crimes that one did not commit, because working with the prosecution is not an option.

    #1888394
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    On the noachide prohibition of theft, I think you are mistaken. It only refers to where an object was taken forcefully. Swindling, counterfeiting, and deceiving to obtain goods, would not be included in gezel. I recall the Minchas Chinuch referencing this idea.

    Could the witness be the one who was aggrieved? And, could anyone appoint himself as a judge?

    #1888396
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Dovid,

    “who were required by the situation to use force”

    The only way you could think that, is because you were never in such a setting. There was zero reason for force. This kind of ‘failure to cooperate’ is routine. I have seen Yidden cooperating less the George Floyd did, over a parking ticket.

    #1888409
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Charlie,
    The home invasion with armed robbery took place in 07 in Houston. He sat for it. He already had due process. It might as well have never happened in regard to Floyd’s death.

    #1888419
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    I am not trying to give any impression of him. I am trying to say it does not matter. If you can please tell all the readers on YWN what your idea of a ‘low class nice guy on drugs’ is. (Being that you already stated elsewhere that you would give them all a death sentence. I am still hoping you will walk that one back.) They do stupid and violent things. Which is why there are laws against drug use.

    #1888456
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“I recall the Minchas Chinuch referencing this idea.”
    Stop pretending that you know how to learn!
    Stealing those cigarettes is definitely Osser for Goy.
    Maybe you’re trying to Manipulate the readers here?
    I’m not familiar with the Minchas Chinuch, but it would only apply to Yidden.
    “Could the witness be the one who was aggrieved?”
    Why Not?
    “And, could anyone appoint himself as a judge?”
    Why Not? This is talking about keeping the 7 Mitzvos.
    Stop with your Lomdus!

    “I am still hoping you will walk that one back.)”
    Are you kidding?!?
    “They do stupid and violent things. Which is why there are laws against drug use.”
    The punishments Mostly are a JOKE!

    #1888636
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    No manipulation here. Rather, a two line biography may be helpful. Rav Yosef Babad wrote a comprehensive manuscript on the laws of the Noahides. He quotes it often in the Minchas Chinuch. It was never published, and is assumed to be lost.

    I could try to look it up.

    It is a safe assumption that a human witness must be a bystander, not a participant.

    Do you think anyone could just appoint themselves a judge? (In real life. Not a coffee room judge.)

    Direct theft, as in taking by grabbing without permission is (included in) gezel (for a goy). Why would counterfeit money be forbidden, without the added isssur of oinaah? (Etc.)

    #1888647
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“I could try to look it up.”
    Who’s stopping you?

    “It is a safe assumption that a human witness must be a bystander, not a participant.”
    Not by Goyim. No Neemonus more than s/o else.

    “Do you think anyone could just appoint themselves a judge?”
    See above answer.

    “Why would counterfeit money be forbidden”
    The clerk told him it wasn’t Good. Simple Gezel.
    Why are you defending a Russah, like Floyd?!?

    #1888656
    charliehall
    Participant

    “We’re obligated to observe the “law of the land”, regardless of whether it’s consistent with Talmudic law.”

    Actually we are often obligated to give up our lives rather than commit a transgression.

    “what stupidity he pleaded guilty”

    Uh, no he didn’t. He was not given a trial.

    “the Judge Cop gave him the Correct Torah Punishment!”

    Ah, so if I see you shoplifting I can shoot you. No trial. Got it.

    “Why would counterfeit money be forbidden, without the added isssur of oinaah? ”

    The Rema wrote that non-Jews are obligated in pretty much everything in Chosen Mishpat.

    “Why are you defending a Russah, like Floyd?!?”

    Who is defending him? YOU are defending murderous police. They summarily executed him with no trial. Now while it is true that a Non-Jewish court can execute someone for petty theft, it is only after a trial before a judge with an eyewitness testifying. That didn’t happen. You are defending a halachic violation as well as a violation of secular law.

    “Why would counterfeit money be forbidden”

    Interesting question. First, I noted the opinion of Rema. But on the other hand, money did not exist at the time of matan Torah, so all references to it have to be later. Paper money did not exist in the western world until modern times so we don’t even have rishonim on that issue. However, as Chazal were pretty aggressive in their support for a workable economic system (banning the use of unminted slugs, banning the use of Jewish coins) so it is hard to imagine that they would have permitted anyone to print fake paper money.

    #1888744
    DovidBT
    Participant

    Actually we are often obligated to give up our lives rather than commit a transgression.

    Actually that situation is very rare. When was the last time someone forced you to practice idolatry, commit murder, or be sexually immoral?

    #1888812
    Health
    Participant

    Oh Charlie -“YOU are defending murderous police. They summarily executed him with no trial.
    You are defending a halachic violation”

    It seems that you Don’t understand my posts.
    There was a Witness that he stole a pack of cigarettes.
    You don’t NEED an Official Courtroom Trial.
    The cop came around and judged up the case.
    He found him Guilty and gave him the Correct Punishment.

    #1888950
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Dovid,
    You omitted the most common scenario; Kiddush Hashem.

    #1888951
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    I only have an old print with me. Too tedious. Same with online. IY”H next time I have a new print handy.

    I do not see a reason to get into the believing the witness versus clarifying through witnesses, question. By mortals, a witness is by definition a bystander.

    Similarly, a judge would have to hold office. Judgeship is also relevant as matter of prestige, like a king. One has to actually be actively recognized as a judge. It cannot be an ad hoc tribunal. If you could just hold spurious court, what prevents the defendant from presiding over the ‘judge’? If you would say that, yes, the defendant can simultaneously judge the ‘judge’, that is lawlessness. Which makes the whole idea of having a courts more redundant than this paragraph.

    But even in your fantasy, at what point did the cop judge the case? While he was getting out of his car? Restraining him? The next day? Today? Did he talk to the clerk at any point?

    The clerk told him it was not good, after he left the store. At the time of the transfer it was given intentionally.

    This thread has not been about defending Floyd. Is Chauvin a Tzaddik?

    #1888953
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Charlie,
    Can you point me to the Rema. I would love to get a closer look!

    The point here was, that the cigarettes were given willingly, That would take gezel by itself out of the equation. A Noahide only faces the death penalty for gezel. Not for other illegal methods of obtaining goods.

    #1889034
    charliehall
    Participant

    “You don’t NEED an Official Courtroom Trial.”

    You are making a mockery of the Noachide laws. One of them is to set up a formal legal system. This was an extrajudicial execution. In other words, murder. The officer responsible is now facing homicide charges. He won’t get the death penalty, though, which is good, because as pointed out US courts don’t follow Noachide law. (Minnesota fortunately abolished its death penalty in 1911.) Every execution in the US where there was no eyewitness testimony is homicide and the Governors who sign the death warrants will be called to account.

    Essentially, you are supporting murder.

    #1889156
    Health
    Participant

    Oh Charlie, -“You are making a mockery of the Noachide laws. One of them is to set up a formal legal system. This was an extrajudicial execution. In other words, murder.”

    STOP With your Am Haratzos!
    You never answered my question on other topics – Do you represent YU on your Torah Knowledge?
    I sure Hope NOT!

    Why don’t you learn the Rambam on 7 Mitzvos of Goyim?
    Yes, one of the Mitzvos is for them to set up a Formal Legal system for the other 6.
    He also says Shimon & Levi wiped out Schem legally because they didn’t prosecute the King.
    In other words – they didn’t make a Judgment on him.

    You clearly see you can execute Goyim w/o a Formal Court Case!

    #1889139
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“By mortals, a witness is by definition a bystander.
    Similarly, a judge would have to hold office. Judgeship is also relevant as matter of prestige, like a king. One has to actually be actively recognized as a judge”

    Please DON’T Show e/o in the CR your Am Haratzos!
    I’m Not going to teach you Torah, but we’re talking about a Ben Noach, Not a Jew.
    There are Different Rules!

    “But even in your fantasy, at what point did the cop judge the case?”
    When he arrived at the scene & was told why the Perp was arrested.

    “The point here was, that the cigarettes were given willingly, That would take gezel by itself out of the equation”
    LOL. Did you learn in a Yeshiva past High School?
    He only sold him cigs, Not gave him them!
    He actually went over to the Perp in his car and told him – he can’t accept his payment.
    This is GEZEL in No way AROUND – Period!
    Enough with Krumkeit.

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