Defunding Police

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  • #1888180
    DovidBT
    Participant

    The Talmud says you do. Our judicial system does not meet even the minimal standards demanded by the Torah for Noachide courts.

    We’re obligated to observe the “law of the land”, regardless of whether it’s consistent with Talmudic law.

    The police executed him without trial, without due process.

    He died due to his failure to cooperate with the police, who were required by the situation to use force. Whether they did anything unlawful will be determined by the on-going legal process.

    #1888211
    som1
    Participant

    “The Talmud says you do. Our judicial system does not meet even the minimal standards demanded by the Torah for Noachide courts.”

    what stupidity he pleaded guilty

    #1888219
    Health
    Participant

    Oh Charlie, -“Had Geroge Floyd been a Jew, WE would be the ones rioting.”
    “While US Jews don’t usually riot,…”

    Hypocrisy at it’s Finest!
    You were talking about American Jews.

    #1888224
    Health
    Participant

    Oh Charlie, -“The Talmud says you do. Our judicial system does not meet even the minimal standards demanded by the Torah for Noachide courts.”

    In this case it does!
    I surely Hope that you don’t represent YU on your Torah knowledge!
    For Noachide courts, acc. to the Rambam, all you need is one Witness & one Judge.
    The witness said that he didn’t pay for his cigarettes, because the bill was counterfeit.
    Then the Judge Cop gave him the Correct Torah Punishment!

    #1888395
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Som,
    Stupidity or not, it is the reality in american slums. Among the low class, it is common to plead guilty for crimes that one did not commit, because working with the prosecution is not an option.

    #1888394
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    On the noachide prohibition of theft, I think you are mistaken. It only refers to where an object was taken forcefully. Swindling, counterfeiting, and deceiving to obtain goods, would not be included in gezel. I recall the Minchas Chinuch referencing this idea.

    Could the witness be the one who was aggrieved? And, could anyone appoint himself as a judge?

    #1888396
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Dovid,

    “who were required by the situation to use force”

    The only way you could think that, is because you were never in such a setting. There was zero reason for force. This kind of ‘failure to cooperate’ is routine. I have seen Yidden cooperating less the George Floyd did, over a parking ticket.

    #1888409
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Charlie,
    The home invasion with armed robbery took place in 07 in Houston. He sat for it. He already had due process. It might as well have never happened in regard to Floyd’s death.

    #1888419
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    I am not trying to give any impression of him. I am trying to say it does not matter. If you can please tell all the readers on YWN what your idea of a ‘low class nice guy on drugs’ is. (Being that you already stated elsewhere that you would give them all a death sentence. I am still hoping you will walk that one back.) They do stupid and violent things. Which is why there are laws against drug use.

    #1888456
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“I recall the Minchas Chinuch referencing this idea.”
    Stop pretending that you know how to learn!
    Stealing those cigarettes is definitely Osser for Goy.
    Maybe you’re trying to Manipulate the readers here?
    I’m not familiar with the Minchas Chinuch, but it would only apply to Yidden.
    “Could the witness be the one who was aggrieved?”
    Why Not?
    “And, could anyone appoint himself as a judge?”
    Why Not? This is talking about keeping the 7 Mitzvos.
    Stop with your Lomdus!

    “I am still hoping you will walk that one back.)”
    Are you kidding?!?
    “They do stupid and violent things. Which is why there are laws against drug use.”
    The punishments Mostly are a JOKE!

    #1888636
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    No manipulation here. Rather, a two line biography may be helpful. Rav Yosef Babad wrote a comprehensive manuscript on the laws of the Noahides. He quotes it often in the Minchas Chinuch. It was never published, and is assumed to be lost.

    I could try to look it up.

    It is a safe assumption that a human witness must be a bystander, not a participant.

    Do you think anyone could just appoint themselves a judge? (In real life. Not a coffee room judge.)

    Direct theft, as in taking by grabbing without permission is (included in) gezel (for a goy). Why would counterfeit money be forbidden, without the added isssur of oinaah? (Etc.)

    #1888647
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“I could try to look it up.”
    Who’s stopping you?

    “It is a safe assumption that a human witness must be a bystander, not a participant.”
    Not by Goyim. No Neemonus more than s/o else.

    “Do you think anyone could just appoint themselves a judge?”
    See above answer.

    “Why would counterfeit money be forbidden”
    The clerk told him it wasn’t Good. Simple Gezel.
    Why are you defending a Russah, like Floyd?!?

    #1888656
    charliehall
    Participant

    “We’re obligated to observe the “law of the land”, regardless of whether it’s consistent with Talmudic law.”

    Actually we are often obligated to give up our lives rather than commit a transgression.

    “what stupidity he pleaded guilty”

    Uh, no he didn’t. He was not given a trial.

    “the Judge Cop gave him the Correct Torah Punishment!”

    Ah, so if I see you shoplifting I can shoot you. No trial. Got it.

    “Why would counterfeit money be forbidden, without the added isssur of oinaah? ”

    The Rema wrote that non-Jews are obligated in pretty much everything in Chosen Mishpat.

    “Why are you defending a Russah, like Floyd?!?”

    Who is defending him? YOU are defending murderous police. They summarily executed him with no trial. Now while it is true that a Non-Jewish court can execute someone for petty theft, it is only after a trial before a judge with an eyewitness testifying. That didn’t happen. You are defending a halachic violation as well as a violation of secular law.

    “Why would counterfeit money be forbidden”

    Interesting question. First, I noted the opinion of Rema. But on the other hand, money did not exist at the time of matan Torah, so all references to it have to be later. Paper money did not exist in the western world until modern times so we don’t even have rishonim on that issue. However, as Chazal were pretty aggressive in their support for a workable economic system (banning the use of unminted slugs, banning the use of Jewish coins) so it is hard to imagine that they would have permitted anyone to print fake paper money.

    #1888744
    DovidBT
    Participant

    Actually we are often obligated to give up our lives rather than commit a transgression.

    Actually that situation is very rare. When was the last time someone forced you to practice idolatry, commit murder, or be sexually immoral?

    #1888812
    Health
    Participant

    Oh Charlie -“YOU are defending murderous police. They summarily executed him with no trial.
    You are defending a halachic violation”

    It seems that you Don’t understand my posts.
    There was a Witness that he stole a pack of cigarettes.
    You don’t NEED an Official Courtroom Trial.
    The cop came around and judged up the case.
    He found him Guilty and gave him the Correct Punishment.

    #1888950
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Dovid,
    You omitted the most common scenario; Kiddush Hashem.

    #1888951
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    I only have an old print with me. Too tedious. Same with online. IY”H next time I have a new print handy.

    I do not see a reason to get into the believing the witness versus clarifying through witnesses, question. By mortals, a witness is by definition a bystander.

    Similarly, a judge would have to hold office. Judgeship is also relevant as matter of prestige, like a king. One has to actually be actively recognized as a judge. It cannot be an ad hoc tribunal. If you could just hold spurious court, what prevents the defendant from presiding over the ‘judge’? If you would say that, yes, the defendant can simultaneously judge the ‘judge’, that is lawlessness. Which makes the whole idea of having a courts more redundant than this paragraph.

    But even in your fantasy, at what point did the cop judge the case? While he was getting out of his car? Restraining him? The next day? Today? Did he talk to the clerk at any point?

    The clerk told him it was not good, after he left the store. At the time of the transfer it was given intentionally.

    This thread has not been about defending Floyd. Is Chauvin a Tzaddik?

    #1888953
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Charlie,
    Can you point me to the Rema. I would love to get a closer look!

    The point here was, that the cigarettes were given willingly, That would take gezel by itself out of the equation. A Noahide only faces the death penalty for gezel. Not for other illegal methods of obtaining goods.

    #1889034
    charliehall
    Participant

    “You don’t NEED an Official Courtroom Trial.”

    You are making a mockery of the Noachide laws. One of them is to set up a formal legal system. This was an extrajudicial execution. In other words, murder. The officer responsible is now facing homicide charges. He won’t get the death penalty, though, which is good, because as pointed out US courts don’t follow Noachide law. (Minnesota fortunately abolished its death penalty in 1911.) Every execution in the US where there was no eyewitness testimony is homicide and the Governors who sign the death warrants will be called to account.

    Essentially, you are supporting murder.

    #1889156
    Health
    Participant

    Oh Charlie, -“You are making a mockery of the Noachide laws. One of them is to set up a formal legal system. This was an extrajudicial execution. In other words, murder.”

    STOP With your Am Haratzos!
    You never answered my question on other topics – Do you represent YU on your Torah Knowledge?
    I sure Hope NOT!

    Why don’t you learn the Rambam on 7 Mitzvos of Goyim?
    Yes, one of the Mitzvos is for them to set up a Formal Legal system for the other 6.
    He also says Shimon & Levi wiped out Schem legally because they didn’t prosecute the King.
    In other words – they didn’t make a Judgment on him.

    You clearly see you can execute Goyim w/o a Formal Court Case!

    #1889139
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“By mortals, a witness is by definition a bystander.
    Similarly, a judge would have to hold office. Judgeship is also relevant as matter of prestige, like a king. One has to actually be actively recognized as a judge”

    Please DON’T Show e/o in the CR your Am Haratzos!
    I’m Not going to teach you Torah, but we’re talking about a Ben Noach, Not a Jew.
    There are Different Rules!

    “But even in your fantasy, at what point did the cop judge the case?”
    When he arrived at the scene & was told why the Perp was arrested.

    “The point here was, that the cigarettes were given willingly, That would take gezel by itself out of the equation”
    LOL. Did you learn in a Yeshiva past High School?
    He only sold him cigs, Not gave him them!
    He actually went over to the Perp in his car and told him – he can’t accept his payment.
    This is GEZEL in No way AROUND – Period!
    Enough with Krumkeit.

    #1892012
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Charlie,

    If you can please help me locate the Rema you mentioned.

    The rulers of the land are required to maintain the peace. Therefore they are not held accountable for executions, unless it is for nefarious purposes. (Such as Achav and Navos.) Similarly, they are allowed to conduct destructive military campaigns, as long as they are not excessive.

    #1892818
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,

    “By mortals, a witness is by definition a bystander.
    Similarly, a judge would have to hold office.”

    A ben noach is a mortal.

    #1892819
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,

    I asked, “at what point did the cop judge the case?”

    You responded, “when he arrived at the scene & was told why the Perp was arrested.”

    Nobody at the scene was a witness. They did not even hear from the clerk, and probably had no idea who he was. Floyd was never given a chance to defend himself. (Verbally or physically.) Nor did the cop ever ponder the evidence. Nobody even checked that they had the right man. Or if the bill was really counterfeit.

    #1892820
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,

    I still maintain that the term Gezel, generally only refers to taking possession by force. Duping someone out of their money, is only termed gezel by association. The clerk likely handed him the cigarettes with the intention of Floyd keeping them forever. [I am aware of the other issurim involved. The byword is not gezel.]

    #1892994
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“By mortals, a witness is by definition a bystander.
    Similarly, a judge would have to hold office.”
    A ben noach is a mortal.
    Nobody at the scene was a witness. They did not even hear from the clerk, and probably had no idea who he was. Floyd was never given a chance to defend himself. (Verbally or physically.) Nor did the cop ever ponder the evidence. Nobody even checked that they had the right man. Or if the bill was really counterfeit.”

    I hear your opinion, but I disagree.
    There is another angle here anyways.
    Floyd was a Rodef.
    He was about to drive a car while being intoxicated.
    First they tried to put him in the Police Car, when that didn’t work, they had to restrain him.
    The fact that he died – is his own Fault.
    He’s Not Guilty in Minn. Law & for sure Not acc. to the Torah!

    #1893094
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    There are a number of circumstances that would nullify the din of rodef. Even if all the conditions were fulfilled, a soon as they got him out of the car he would no longer be a threat. When Mr. Chauvin showed up, Mr. Floyd was no more of a rodef then you or me.

    #1893135
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“There are a number of circumstances that would nullify the din of rodef.”

    If you have any – who’s stopping you from Naming them?

    “Even if all the conditions were fulfilled, a soon as they got him out of the car he would no longer be a threat”

    Before you post – you should read my posts.
    I wrote -“First they tried to put him in the Police Car, when that didn’t work, they had to restrain him”.
    So what don’t you understand?
    Once they got him out – then what?
    Do you think he’d let s/o else drive? Or do you think he’d take a taxi?
    The Reality is – if they let him go, he’d go back into the driver’s seat.
    That why they had to arrest him.
    This is what happens when people are intoxicated – they don’t Think Straight!

    #1893172
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,
    Curious question. Is there something to your random capitalization of words? Just wondering if I should be paying close attention.

    While one is obligated to make sure a drunk does net get behind the wheel, once he is removed from the vehicle there is no way to consider him a rodef. At the point that he was resisting arrest, he was not even endangering anyone. [Rodef is typically one who is committed to murder. A public menace is depends on how much a direct act is taking place.]

    #1893537
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“once he is removed from the vehicle there is no way to consider him a rodef.”

    If it’s More than Likely – He’ll just go back to driving – He’s Still a Rodef!
    Stop posting things without thinking about them.

    #1893577
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,

    The question of rodef begins when the drunkard is about to drive. When the cop was on Floyd’s back and gasping for breath, even had he been a full rodef before (He was not one bit a rodef to begin with.) he regained his status as a life worth protecting. Stopping a rodef, is not a license to kill.

    PS The minchas chinuch mentioned above can be found at 337 4. Please take a look!

    #1893648
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“even had he been a full rodef before (He was not one bit a rodef to begin with.”
    And why not? You don’t think a drunk guy driving a car is a Rodef?
    Maybe you also believe that you have No right to kill s/o who happened to dig a hole and end up in your house?!?

    #1893863
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,

    When the drunk is actually starting to drive [while impaired] and there may be people around (Or if there are people with him in the vehicle.) he is a rodef. Not before that.

    Breaking into a house is not [yet] a rodef. He is given a lifeless disposition because of two factors. 1) He is in the process of theft. 2) He may become a rodef.

    #1893870
    Doing my best
    Participant

    Hilarious.
    I leave the CR for 3 weeks and I come back to find that Chauvin was actually giving Floyd the death penalty for shooting a pregnant women about 15 years ago because the legal system did not yet punish him (apparently forgetting that Floyd already sat in prison for this).
    Hahahahahahaaha

    #1893926
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Doing,
    As far anybody here knows, Floyd never shot anyone.

    The joke three weeks ago was that random people being pulled off the streets into unmarked cars was vital to keeping America safe.

    #1893943
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“When the drunk is actually starting to drive [while impaired] and there may be people around (Or if there are people with him in the vehicle.) he is a rodef. Not before that.
    Breaking into a house is not [yet] a rodef. He is given a lifeless disposition because of two factors. 1) He is in the process of theft. 2) He may become a rodef”

    Obviously your Not familiar with the Torah. My last example was Haboh B’Machteres. He’s a Rodef as soon as he breaks in.
    The same is over here. He was about to drive the Car – as s/o intoxicated.
    The cop pulled him out. So what are you proposing the cop do next? Let him go or arrest him?
    My impression from you is – he should let him go.
    But that would be against the Torah, because he’d just go back to Driving.
    So he had to arrest him – to stop him from being a Rodef!

    #1893957
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,

    Why would the thief be a rodef as soon as he breaks in? Maybe the house is empty. [As well as a hundred other variables.]

    How do you know he was about to drive the car? Maybe he was going to sleep it off. (Among other possibilities.)

    I propose the cop should have confirmed that he was the guy who bought the cigarettes. [Maybe he did.] Then ask him where he got the money from. [I am not sure how the best way to ask this question. But something along these lines. Then again, it could be the cop did this too.] The he could have asked him if he needs a ride. [Maybe he did. Maybe something happened here. It is not clear to me.] And then he could have left him alone! [Only one of the millions of Americans that were intoxicated at that moment.]

    #1894014
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“Why would the thief be a rodef as soon as he breaks in? Maybe the house is empty. [As well as a hundred other variables.]”

    Go learn the Chumash. It is talking about an occupied house.
    When you learn that part, then you could be able to have a discussion about it!

    “How do you know he was about to drive the car? Maybe he was going to sleep it off. (Among other possibilities.)”

    When s/o is in the Driver’s seat, you could assume he’s the driver. Esp. because he probably drove to the store & Now he’s going home.

    “The he could have asked him if he needs a ride. And then he could have left him alone!”

    In most PD’s in this country, they just do police work. They don’t give Taxi Rides!

    #1894120
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,

    I am not a bible thumper. This is not the parshah of the din of rodef. See the latter half of eight perek of sanhedrin.

    You can not assume things in life and death matters. [This may be a major earth shattering chiddush to you.] You have to examine the factors carefully.

    In many Police departments they do only half of their job. Eventually we should give them better training, or find private alternatives.

    #1894179
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“This is not the parshah of the din of rodef. See the latter half of eight perek of sanhedrin.”

    Did you actually learn Sanhedrin? Anyways he’s a Rodef – No matter what You Say.

    “You can not assume things in life and death matters. [This may be a major earth shattering chiddush to you.] You have to examine the factors carefully.”

    Very Funny! Go learn Chumash again. (If you ever did.)
    I guess you Never Heard of HaBoh B’Machteres.
    The Torah actually Makes an Assumption – that Allows you to Kill the Intruder!

    “In many Police departments they do only half of their job. Eventually we should give them better training, or find private alternatives”

    You obviously have No Clue what the Job of a Cop is!
    I had this discussion with you in the Arrest of that Poor Cop in Georgia.
    The Cops don’t do Taxi Service – All they do is Law Enforcement.
    You believe in Defunding Cops, but a lot of people that actually live in the Inner Cities, Black or White,
    are Very Much Against this Idea!

    #1894267
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Health,

    The din of machteres only applies to a ganev. Because he is not in any way in the midst of attempting to kill anyone, it is inapplicable the regular concept of rodef. It would not apply if someone would be breaking and entering without any intention of theft. For example, someone breaking into a public building to get shelter from a storm (However we know that he is not trying to steal anything.) will not have one din of a rodef. Or if someone takes a shortcut through your property, there is no din of machteres.

    If you want, you can keep thumping your bible. Better to open it and examine it under the lens of our sages.

    #1894304
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“It would not apply if someone would be breaking and entering without any intention of theft. For example, someone breaking into a public building to get shelter from a storm”

    So you’re actually agreeing with me!
    You look at the Perp’s intentions.
    Just like in HaBoh B’Machteres we consider his intentions, so also in Floyd’s case we look at his intentions.
    He wanted to drive home or wherever. Just taking him out of the driver’s seat & NOT arresting him, wouldn’t Stop his intention of DRIVING!

    #1894806
    charliehall
    Participant

    Rabbi Yirmiyohu Kaganoff has an essay that discusses this issue on his web site rabbikaganoff dot com: “The Torah’s Instructions to Non-Jews—The Laws of Bnei Noach”. He identifies the source as Shu’t #10. I don’t have that sefer at home and haven’t been inside a beit midrash in months 🙁 so if you have it and can confirm, please do so.

    Rabbi Kaganoff identifies acharonim on both sides of this issue. He interestingly points out that non-Jews would need to go to beit din rather than secular courts to resolve property disputes if the halachah is according to Rema. Is there any beit din today that accepts disputes between non-Jews? And in some places, arbitration by religious courts is not enforceable.

    Also, at the time Rema would have written that, Jews had been expelled from England, France, Spain, and Portugal and had never lived in Scotland, Denmark/Norway, Sweden/Finland, or Russia. 🙁 There was still a Jewish community in China at that point, but not in Korea or Japan yet. So much of the world would be over all these issurim.

    #1895105
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Charlie,

    Thanks a lot! I’ll (eventually) let you know.

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