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She’s a relative of mine. Anyways this girl goes to BY of BP a very frum school and she comes from a really frum family and she was telling me about all the “cool” stuff she watches. Its kids stuff but she watches a lot of different movies all rated pg nothing over that. There’s plenty of shmutz and innuendo they put into a pg movie. It really bothered me that she’s so into movies. There’s no doubt that her other friends are watching the same stuff.
Is there such a thing as a class in a regular non chassidish BY without kids that watch movies? Does it even exist in Lakewood?
Or should I face reality and realize just how messed up things are?
this is exactly what I was saying before, everyone does it, butclaim otherwise!
find something else to worry about
I’m surprised about BY of BP especially for elementary school. I don’t live in BP so to hear this is going on in BY of all places that is a shock to me. Where are the kids getting the videos from at that age?
crdle – I would think that this would be a problem that her parents should deal with – if they believe it is a problem. I am sure that you have lots of other things to concern yourself with.
WIY, you are right.
i agree with the above advice. it’s really the parents’ problem, unless they approached you for help.
Put yourself in the shoes of a 7th grade BY of BP girl. What should she do in her free time?
Ride a bike? (see the CR thread about that).
Walk the ave with her friends? Suddenly she’s hanging out in the street with her friends (see recent CR thread).
Go to the mall? Same problem.
Roller blading in the park? (see bike riding thread)
Just about anything she might do outside the house, someone is ready to scream its not tznius.
So, we’ve limited the girls to indoor activities. How much homework can girls do? How many books can they be expected to read? How many get togethers with her friends can she have (without someone screaming that its not tznius with her brothers around the house).
So, now we’ve limited the girls to the house, alone. She is tired of reading, sick of her homework, she isnt ready to spend her days baking cookies, challah or knitting a tallis bag for her future chassan. Her mother doesnt need her help to prepare for/from supper right now. What should she do? It is more depressing trying to picture myself into the shoes of a 7th grade BYoBP girl than reading about the conversation you had with her.
Maybe we ought to delve deeper into why girls have a need to be cool…Perhaps she hears in the house, or from other sources, that her older sisters or friends’ sisters who are dating even learning boys, say that learning boys want “cool” girls. I’m reminded of hearing that a well known Rov spoke to an audience in Lakewood, and said he gets calls from crying women, such as wives of Kollel husbands, who complain their wives dress too frumpy. I believe it’s all connected.
Unless she is watching stuff that makes the innuendo crystal-clear (to a BY girl who has never been exposed to the “harsh realities” of those innuendoes before, and therefore would not understand them anyway), it is not your concern, if it is not her PARENTS’ concern (and apparently, they are not worried about it). I would stay out of it, unless asked for my opinion.
I remember seeing Shrek, which is rife with innuendo, most of which I MYSELF did not get, the first time around. I doubt a BY girl would get most, if any, of the referrences.
Yank – Areivim Kol Yisroel Zeh Lzeh. WIY is absolutely doing the right thing about worrying about his brothers and sisters spiritual welfare.
to be honest, i was a little shocked but i don’t think that’s the typical 7th grader. (although no one is typical) it has a lot to do with the home she comes from, the school… etc there are a lot of factors
Here’s another way of putting it:
If you ask the gedolim if you should spend your time learning or writing on YWN about all the problems in the frum world, what do you think they would say?
Apushatayid: How about volunteering to help a neighbor, say, with twins? Or baking or making something cool to put a smile on an elderly neighbors face?
WIY brings up an important issue. And don’t go knocking it down with all those “rayas” because that itself is part of the problem: the people that may have some influence on children (parents, aunts/uncles etc.) don’t encourage GIVING of themselves… as a fun and fulfilling thing to do(think, chessed, something that meshes with that particular kids personality…)
Based on my own experience growing up… whenever I was into helping someone else, I stayed out of trouble… otherwise my mind probably wandered to the wrong place “what can I watch” etc.
I think what is interesting here is not that WIY is concerned that a Jewish girl is watching movies, but at the incongruity of a girl in BYBP watching movies.
Had the girl been in Flatbush Yeshiva, for example, would he be having the same reaction? It is still a frum girl, filling her head with the same garbage… But, perhaps such behavior is “expected” from certain frum girls and not others?
So, I don’t think it is the movie per se that is bothering WIY, as much as the hypocrisy of a BY girl doing something that a BY (and all those involved therein) is supposed to frown on.
So now the question can be rephrased as : Why is this girl doing something that her school (presumably) doesn’t allow? Where does this double standard come from? (And do the MO have something going for them, by way of less hypocrisy?)
“Is there such a thing as a class in a regular non chassidish BY without kids that watch movies? Does it even exist in Lakewood?”
I would pretty seriously doubt that there is. And I’m not sure the Chassidim are doing so much better.
“It really bugs me that people don’t care and prefer not to know. Out of sight out of mind. We only wake up when it hits our own family Rachmana Litzlon.”
Unfortunately, far too true. We have to look around us and see what the current issues are, if only to protect those around us from them.
Yanky55:
“If you ask the gedolim if you should spend your time learning or writing on YWN about all the problems in the frum world, what do you think they would say?”
There is such a thing as a kosher outlet… and if you don’t believe in them, what are you doing here?
Apushatayid: How about volunteering to help a neighbor, say, with twins? Or baking or making something cool to put a smile on an elderly neighbors face?
That’s a nice idea. Put yourself in the shoes of a 7th grade girl. Is that how you want to spend ALL your free time? Get real.
Once again, I find myself agreeing with apushatayid. But really mw13 said it best. “There is such a thing as a kosher outlet…”
While I’m not recommending that someone in seventh grade (or anyone for that matter) watch movies, a person must pick battles. PG movies are not the best thing in the world, but if something is kosher its ok. If something is neutral, is it automatically bad simply because its not good?! If everything is forbidden, everything is allowed.
I have a tv and I have no problem letting my kids watch some pg13 shows/movies, aslong as the homework and studying is done and it is before 9pm.My daughter goes to a very right-winged sunday program and has girls from BYBP in her group. They outright were telling me that they watch hanna montana and wizards of waverly place and high school musical and jonas bros etc…its clean fun-but they were very clear to tell me that if anyone at school found out about it they would be in big trouble at school.They have a tv but it is hidden in the parents room and when they go to a hotel in the summer-apparently every shabbos they would go away-they would watch the whole time!And these are 6 and 7th graders in BYofBP!They know to hide that they watch tv!
Personally, Ithink parents should watch out for far more dangerous behavior like drinking and drugs…tv is harmless but hey thats just my oppinion!
apushata: It depends on how you raise ’em… and more importantly, who their friends are.
As well… how much free time does a BY girl REALLY have? Not much. And they do need their downtime, no question about that. When the weather is not appropriate for outside fun stuff… one of the reasons why we encourage a love for reading. Board games. Even computer games… (carefully selected is better than a film.)
Are you saying that the ONLY form of entertainment available are films? Give ME a break.
TV is harmless? OK, either you never watched TV nowadays, or your kids are way too close together and you NEED the TV as a babysitter….But seriously, I mean I hear 5 year old girls talking about dumping and boyfriends, and that is the least of it. WHERE DO YOU THINK THEY GET THE IDEA OF DRINKING AND DRUGS??????????????
yanky55 – stop attacking wiy
and i just have to put in – disney nowadays, and so much of the pg stuff (and yes ALLLLL the pg13 stuff) are NOT clean and harmless anymore, if they ever were. Some things i’ve seen being rated pg13, and even pg, i couldn’t believe were rated that “low”. the things the goyim think are appropriate for kids now amazes me. they’re sinking lower and lower and lower by the day.
do we want our kids to be learning the “ways of the world” from them?! their ideas about life and love and pretty much everything else is so twisted, and that’s what gets into the tv, into the shows, into the movies. even the cleanest stuff is starting to get dirtier, it doesn’t seem like they’re about to put a stop on it.
i know that you have to look at the world today in a realistic sense, and you could say that maybe it is impossible or just not smart to try to shelter your kids so much and forbid them from tv. okay, i hear that, i get it. but you have to remember that it’s something to fight! it’s not clean, and it’s not good, and it’s something to be scared of because it has such an easy way of making HUGE impressions on your kids that you don’t want them to get.
you choose how much you want to shelter your kids from the influence of the goyim, but while you’re deciding you must remember that it IS a fight, and there’s no way to bypass it. if you fight, then you have a chance; if you pretend there’s no problem, you lose. plain and simple.
Vinishmartem you can read what you want to into what I wrote to further your agenda of banning everything and looking for the worst in in everyone. Just dont attribute it to me.
I think the point i being missed by many. The issue isn’t so much the TV, movies, etc, it’s the secrecy involved in doing these things. If a child knows they can watch the TV that’s “hidden” in the parents room, there is an implication that “it’s OK as long as no one knows about it”. THAT IS WHAT LEADS TO THE DRUGS, ALCOHOL, THIEVERY, AND ALL THE OTHER BAD STUFF we’re seeing! Obviously, this is not the only thing, but a huge contributor.
I always found it interesting to see so many of the “modern” kids at Tomchei Shabbos packing food, at YACHAD helping kids with disabilities, and the ones volunteering at these events. The yeshivish kids can’t participate because it’s mixed. So they stay home, sneak the TV, movies, alcohol or drugs, because to do otherwise they’re condemned. It seems they can’t win.
I’m not sure about the rest of you, but when I was in 7th grade, visit the old lady next door or at the old age home was not my idea of fun and excitement. These kids need to be given something fun, stimulating and fun to do. TV is not the answer, but absent other things what do you want them to do? How many cakes can they bake???
“…hear 5 year old girls talking about dumping”
Excuse me, but I watch TV and never heard that expression, except in relation to garbage trucks, and it certainly was not something that 5 year old girls would be discussing. What does that expression mean to you?
many years ago a great Rebbe of mine wanted to get some video tapes of childrens shows to keep his young girl, who had downs syndrome, occupied for a while, to give his wife some time to function during the day. he said he wouldnt let her watch sesame street (i dont recall why), or barney. i said barney!? what could be wrong with barney. he said the children danced in a provocative and untznius manner. i wasnt sensitive enough at the time to appreciate that until he said it, and i watched again.
he finally decided she could watch mr rogers neighborhood and nothing else. no disney, sesame, or barney.
and this was a child with downs syndrome.
im sure some will argue with this, but this was a decision from a very wise man. i cant explain it any further
I’ve never watched Barney so I can’t comment on that.
But a down syndrome child has cognitive abilities. They also have normal male/female desires, but often have less inhibition. You would probably want to be even more careful with a child like that.
Mod-80, you never explained what was wrong with a mouse teaching my son shapes.
And FTR, I understand why people don’t allow themselves to watch any (or very minimal) TV. I just think they don’t understand that there are kosher things on TV as well.
i never answered because he question has no significance.
and because i am not interested in participating in the cyclical discussion any further
but i can see you have been waiting to pounce upon me with that question at the first opportunity 😉
so here you go:
i dont know maybe there is nothing wrong with a mouse teaching shapes
maybe there is nothing wrong with the public library ad that is on page 42 of the toeva magazine.
do you stand over your child EVERY second she is watching, never away for a moment, deeply concentrating and analyzing the possible effect on her from everything she sees in this pervasive media designed by goyim and atheists, constructed from their values and ideas, with the remote in your hand ready to turn this thing off in every instant?
if so you are the only one.
if you feel the effect is minimal, go ahead
many people agree with you
if you were aware with a REAL sense and perception of the holiness of a Jewish neshama, not just intellectually, if you were aware with a palpable sense of the fleetingness of this world and the reality and permanence of the world to come, and what you are risking, for a little temporary tranquility and fun, i know you would feel differently about this
Mod80, we don’t allow him to watch Christmas specials. All the other ones are really simple episodes about learning numbers, shapes, directions etc. No athiest messages at least that I’ve caught.
I’m generally right next to him nursing the baby. He watches maybe 1-2X a week.
Really, how is it different than when people let their kids read Mickey Mouse books? There are no commercials. Its pre-taped. And there is nothing wrong with them (unless you consider a duck without pants a problem).
I understand why people filter out TV. But I don’t agree that I am losing my olam habah because of it.
“Other than maybe the discovery channel (maybe) there is nothing kosher on tv”
Well, there is the cooking channel, aside from the food being prepared, there is nothing that is not kosher about its programming.
aries2756 asks: “Where are the kids getting the videos from at that age?” The answer is: from the video store across the street.
Mod 80 – Thank you for your posts
I think the OP was asking if he has to face the reality that to him is sad that involves the world he lives in and did/will raise children in. I don’t think he was judging people who do differently or asking if he should interfere, I think he was just lamenting. Am I right, WIY?
edited
My advice: Do your very best to sceen what comes through your door (obviously, on an age-appropiate level)and run a tight ship while they’re young.
But once they get a little older-old enough to go behind your back if they want to (this has to do if s/he is old enough, not if s/he is rebellious), its time to TALK TO YOUR KID.
Think about it. They spend their entire early childhood, picking up subtle hints that there are some Big Bag Stuff out there which their parents are hiding from them/protecting them from.
Since you are human, you understand that the curiosity only escalates when they get a little older and have a vague idea of what the Big Bag Stuff is. So, they want to go ahead, and check it out for themselves out of pure curiosity.
Explain, yes-explain to your child what is it that you are trying to protect him/her from. And don’t try to be vague, because at this point they are very curious. Your job is to inform them and eliminate the curiosity.
The older the kid, the more you need to tell them. Exactly. You should tell them what the problem is with XYZ (you fill in the blanks). It needs to be worth their while to struggle with the temptation, and it’s your job to make the repercussions crystal clear, so they should be willing to forgo the short-term pleasure.
So when they are approached by a friend or whoever and invited to join in watching/reading/doing something they shouldn’t. A lot of the curiosity isn’t there. Not all, but a lot.
I WILL say that so much here depends on saying the right thing to your kid. Otherwise you haven’t accomplished anything.
And pray to God that you have instilled in them the necessary values to appreciate your arguments.
And I meant that literally. Go ahead, take a few minutes, and pray to God.
Pointing the discussion toward filling in the empty hours, especially with chesed projects, seems the most productive direction. I agree with the poster who mentioned the more modern kids taking on group chesed projects in their communities, and I don’t see it at all in the yeshiva communities. I have seen children from secular or non-Jewish schools put on beautiful programs for a local Jewish nursing home, which gave the residents great pleasure and (at least temporary) relief from their tzures. Nothing comparable from the local yeshiva. In fact, when a yeshiva came in to do a program, it was short and poorly directed and the residents could barely understand what was being presented. One got the feeling the kavana was not on the chesed, but instead on the zechus. There was also a strong pen-pal program going on between the secular school and the residents of this nursing home, which, again, gave the residents much pleasure. Nothing from the yeshivas. I do think kids would join and be enthusiastic about group chesed if led by serious adults whose first concern was the needs of the recipients. This also helps build maturity and self-esteem (more than sessions in the therapists chair), and develops middos of rachmanus.
One other point on the topic of chesed, we have set up a roadblock with our current methods of trying to attract kids to do chesed. Whenever there is an attempt to get kids involved the biggest draw is……THE PRIZES!!!! So the kids relate more to the prizes than the chesed itself.
“roadblock” !?
reward (and punishment) has been a mainstay in the system of Chinuch that the Jewish People have used since their beginning. it is the primary system with which Hashem conducts the world.
is it the ideal method of Chinuch for the near-perfect person? no.
the desire to do Chesed, to do Hashems will is of course a nobler impetus, but its not the best or most efficient way for many children and stages of growth. of course the hope is that eventually, with proper instruction, encouragement and example we hope the ideal motivation will be achieved, but lets not throw out an extremely valuable technique.
“mr rogers neighborhood and nothing else. no disney, sesame, or barney.”
Mr Rodgers is an Christian minister…I’m surprised he would let his daughter watch that…that being said I don’t have problem with any of the show mentiones, including Barney….
Mike,
I’m sure most don’t know that Mr Rodgers, A”H, was a Christian minister.
I don’t know much about your situation but I am proud to say I never watch movies.
I think that if young people are going to watch movies/tv/etc, their parents have the obligation to investigate what they are watching and determine if appropriate.
A 7th grade BY girl watching movies can be depressing. BUT I am more depressed about the deceit of hidden tv’s, pretending not to watch, and the fake frumkeit. I’m sure some feel that if people know that they have a tv, that will hurt their shidduch status. But learning to be not yashar is far worse. Hacol bidai Shemayim (including shidduchim), chutz m’yirat shemayim.
onegoal
Just curious-do you think that watching movies is inherently wrong?
There is definitely a lot that one can be exposed to from watching movies but I don’t look down upon people who watch them. Does that answer your question?
I’m sure most don’t know that Mr Rodgers, A”H, was a Christian minister.”
He never preached religion in his show, only good middos.
I think it might have been loshon horah to specify the school the girl attends. Would have been better to write that she goes to a Bais Yaakov in a frum neighborhood. am I the only one who feels this way? Is the coffee room becoming a little bit the gossip/loshon horah room?
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