October 16, 2009 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #662819
yes just start a thread about spending money you do not have in label items, and expensive pocket books and the works , just so people should feel good about themselve.October 16, 2009 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #662820squeakParticipant
The finest clothing carries no label. My tailor told me so. He left Saville Row to do custom work for the quiet connoisseur.October 16, 2009 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #662821
I rather take the minimalist(spelling) approach to life. You can’t take it with you. Be happy with what you have.
Anyway, have to get ready for Shabbat. Shabbat Shalom everyone!! May comment later though.October 16, 2009 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #662822
Good idea mazal!
I just don’t understand how people complain about ayin hara and they don’t realize that they are causing it by showing off.
There is a saying in Spanish that says “the louder the box sounds the emptier it is” it means that the more a person has to prove, the less he has. And a box filled to the top won’t make noise. A person who doesn’t have to prove anything is usually because he has more.October 16, 2009 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #662823
ames – The difference between baking and collecting to designer clothing (as well as an outwardly fancy house) is that the former is done in private, while the latter are done in public.October 16, 2009 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #662824
ames – That isn’t how you compared baking to designer clothing a few posts back.October 16, 2009 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #662825
Had to comment, I’d rather be know for my baking abilty. Think of all the chesed and mitzvot possible. Baking Challah is a mitzvah. Wear Designer clothing is not. You make berachot when you eat, therebye elevating the act of baking from something mundane to something L’Shem ShmyaimOctober 16, 2009 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #662826
she means people enjoy baking, people enjoy showing off. What’s the difference?lolOctober 16, 2009 4:40 pm at 4:40 pm #662827jphoneMember
Me personal opinion is that if you can afford $3,000 suits, buy them. If going into debt to buy a $3,000 suit to massage your ego is something you want to do, go ahead, as dumb as it is, go for it, just dont go running to Tomchei Shabbos to help with challos (this is NOT to say that every tzedaka should start questioning how much money people spend on food and clothing, I’m only talking about the person buying the clothing/jewlery and their attitude towards it).
A $5 shirt or a $555 shirt worn just to snub your nose at the next person is just plain horrible middos.
You cant legislate seichel or middos. If people want to act stupidly, you cant help it. If people have horrible middos you cant do much except offer to learn Mesilas Yesharim with them.October 16, 2009 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #662828
You cant legislate… middos.
Don’t the Seforim Hakedoshim do exactly that?October 16, 2009 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #662829
Baking is for your family, your husband, your children, your guests, to make them feel good and to welcome them to your home. Wearing designer clothing to try to prove that you’re better ………October 16, 2009 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #662830
The labol in the clothing is out of hand in these days consumers shop and buy all types of articles because the names, well if I am the manufacturer I love it. Me as a consumer I love it when I get it on sale. Some people love the fact that they can buy supposedly better items, better quality, sometimes it is better , sometimes it is just a name, sometimes it is a little better butit is not for the price difference.
We have to teach our children in yeshivas and at home the importance of looking clean well iron but not the importance of wearing designer items. I think it is a problem in these days. Even little first graders want a designer knapsacks.October 16, 2009 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #662831
Ames, disapproval of ostentatious displays of wealth is different than denigrating those who have more than them. Furthermore, there is a distinction between high quality, expensive, yet unassuming, non-attention drawing clothing, versus clothing where the central design feature is a label, on the outside, designed to draw attention to yourself and your apparent wealth. If a wealthy man wants to pay a tailor to make him some expensive custom made suits, with nothing to distinguish that they are expensive (other than the custom fit and quality fabric) that is fine. If someone says, let me buy a suit that will show my neighbors how much I can afford to spend on clothing, that is a different story altogether.October 16, 2009 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #662832
Example 1 I know someone that went to Europe and on a cruise to the Mediterranean last winter, they were very careful not show off to any of their friends knowing that most of them can’t afford such a trip.
Example 2 I know someone who is very very wealthy and has a garages filled with antique cars, nobody has to know the wife drives around in a Toyota camry.
Example 3 I know new rich who have to show off to the world, I know people who have more and don’t feel the need to show off.
Bottom line if you want to wear 1000$ shoes go ahead, but you don’t have to tell everyone how much they cost, and where you bought them, what to you have to prove?October 16, 2009 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #662833
Just-a-guy, I approve with you.October 16, 2009 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #662834
Like I said earlier, it revolves about being tzinut, Ames. Being tziniut not only involves clothing hemlines, sleevelines or neckline, tziniut includes not wearing things that call attention to oneself. Celebrities wear designer labels to call attention to themselves. Actually, the designers send these people their products to wear/use to call attention to themselves. Most people buy designers just for the designers, not quality issues. People that are super rich, use the bags a few times and then give them away. I don’t think they use things for quality issues on products. If wearing garbage became poplar, some people are so fickle, they would wear garbage.
I guess it bothers me that people buy designer labels and are wasting their money, the same way it bothers me that people who can’t afford luxuries and buy things to keep up with the “Cohen’s”. I am sorry but most people copy what the rich do. They are held to a higher standard, then the poor folks.October 16, 2009 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #662835
Yes mybat and you know how it hurts to see people spending one thousand dollars on a pair of shoes and see other people struggling to buy food. I cannot change the world but it surely bothers me a lot.October 16, 2009 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #662836
Just a guy that’s exactly my point!October 16, 2009 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #662837jphoneMember
“Don’t the Seforim Hakedoshim do exactly that?”
No they do not. The only hilchos middos are those that apply to weights and measures.October 16, 2009 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #662838squeakParticipant
mazca – what you said is exactly why many great Sages were fearful of the nisyonos of being wealthy. It is not easy to know how Hashem meant for a wealthy person to use his wealth. But this applies not only to those who we think of as wealthy (i.e. those who appear wealthy relative to ourselves) but even to ourselves, as we skrimp and save to “redo the kitchen” or whatever. We have the same opportunity to use the money to feed the hungry, but it’s between us and Hashem only.October 16, 2009 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #662839
Mazca if someone wants to spend $1000 on shoes, fine but don’t show off to people who don’t have money for food, that’s right. That just reminded me I know a family that became very wealthy in recent years. , they were very poor before, well this guy has a brother who doesn’t even have food on his table and all the rich one does(and his wife and kids) is show off to the whole community, now do you think people look up at them or down?October 16, 2009 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #662840
The funny thing a wealthy person never sees himself as wealthy because no matter how much he has he always feels a lack. I know people who bought Couch pocketbooks and feel they are cheap because they are not Louis Vitton ones.October 16, 2009 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #662842
You are right mazca, a person who is wealthy never feels it. That’s why they don’t feel the need to show off.October 16, 2009 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #662843cantoresqMember
Just-a-guy, Paul Frederick.October 16, 2009 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #662844
Of course they feel the need to show off because they never have enough.October 16, 2009 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #662845
Cantoresq- thanks. I’ve bought their shirts and ties, but never the suits. They do have good sales.October 16, 2009 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #662846cantoresqMember
The suits are pretty decent. I supplement them with a few very high end suits from a client in Brooklyn, who sells to me at cost. But the Paul frederick suits seem to wear quite well, and they fit me perfectly; better than more famous brands.October 16, 2009 7:32 pm at 7:32 pm #662847GezuntheitMember
well anyone who only wears brand names is so ‘COOL’!!!! It’s totally ridiculous how much people would spend on stupidity to look cool! You know, half the brands out there are from people who are anti semites! Tommy Hilfigher for example! why are we running to support em, and then feeling ‘cool’ in addition?October 16, 2009 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #662848tzippiMember
Mazal77, B”H things are different here out of town. I can think of one extremely wealthy family that lives well below their means, still well above mine, and frankly, there is no trying to keep up with them, or others with means, at least among many of the people I know.October 16, 2009 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #662849AnonymousInactive
We should start selling a new designer brand – YW! We’ll make clothing that has YW’s all over it and it will become the most popular brand/style out there!October 16, 2009 11:19 pm at 11:19 pm #662850
GOOD IDEA!! and tzeniut too.October 17, 2009 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #662851komaMember
Before the guys pick on the girls, take the Borsalino pin or ribbon off your hats. Why they were able to corner what must be a very small market lies with the consumer. B”H here in EY, one can get an un-Borsalino at lower cost and not too much to complain about quality, along with all flavors of flat felt Hasidic low end stuff. What boggles the American mind is the local minhag to wear a new suit with the sleeve label attached davka.October 18, 2009 12:45 am at 12:45 am #662852shaatraMember
Mod 55: uh right.
And I agree with ames, who ever has a ‘problem’ with other people flashing what they have is somewhat jealous. You can deny it all you want but you know its trueOctober 18, 2009 12:54 am at 12:54 am #662853
k so seriously…besides for ames(and random ppl having their own conversations…lol and i remember lisa frank!)you all make no sense. stop looking at other ppl’s things and get on with your life. it is none of your bussiness…ppl dont have to go out of their way to hide their lifestyle from you just because you have the green monster in you! the only reason you’d waste your time discussng an issue that you have no control over is because you probally have issues and need to vent. I can understand your frustrated but serously….ppl have a right to live their life the way they want. It wouldn’t make sense for a wealthy person to have to buy cheaper brands and hide the fact they went on a cruise cuz your going to complain to the whole neighborhood abt it! it is even written that a man of great statues or wealth is supposed to spend more money and look nicer then the average because admit it, he has a higher status in the bussiness/polital/social world then you are! I am NOT saying he is a greater person in the ruchnius/inner etc sense but to the world he represents something and kol hakavod if he chooses to hide it but…Now stop complaing and wasting your time and get on with life! And please dont you all attack me for posting s/t against your veiws….!October 18, 2009 1:39 am at 1:39 am #662854Mezonos MavenMember
tzippi, same story here in Brooklyn. Most folks wealthy folks, to their credit, live below their means. Obviously there are exceptions, and obviously the exceptions get all the attention.October 18, 2009 1:48 am at 1:48 am #662855bevParticipant
I agree with ames and hud that if u can afford it why not? don’t start making a big deal about what others are wearing. but theres one thing that does bother me about labels and thats that why shud ppl b spending so much money on clothes when their fellow jews can’t affgord to put food on their table? no one has to go looking for bargains or dress like a shlump, but if u cud spend 500 on a store in bloomingdales or 200 on almost the same skirt in a jewish store then why not give that 300 to tzedaka and buy the cheaper skirt? if someone can afford to spend money then its their business but i think that this can b stressed to parents and children- learn to just think and prioratize before spendingOctober 18, 2009 3:06 am at 3:06 am #662856
Dear hud and bev, you really do not know who are you talking to if you feel you are wealthy enough to buy wathever you want do so . That does not mean it is the right thing to do , one thing is to be a well dress clean person and another thing is to overdue your position in life. Here we are talking about frum religious jews not a bunch of show offs that think that clothing makes them. A person is made by his acts, wayof thinking and truthfullly tzeniut in the way they dress not only according to halachah but also according to normal sense. A person who is wealthy could buywhatever he wants that does not mean a person is right, Hashem has given money to people to do right not to show off. Believe me I probably do have more money than you and it does not make me right to over spend it.I live very comfortably bli ain hara I have a maid and go on tons of cruises and the only reason I am saying this is because you have no idea who I am otherwise I wouldnt even mention it to you. I also have designer clothing and I am not green jealous like you say, but I do think it is wrong that people think just because they are able to spend on designer clothing they are better people, we have to teach our children the real values in life , like chessed, tzedakah, helping others, and keeping the mitzvot the right way , not by thinking if I am able to buy labels I am a better person. So it surely does not make us right, and we have to know that it is wrong. Specially trying to put people down just because they cannot buy the same items like we do. IT is wrong.. Sorry, and if you are frum be frum with your thinking, Hashem has made us all equal and at the end of this world only our mitzvos are going to come with us because your closet full of designer clothing , expensive shoes, and fancy ties, are going to stay in this world. and we come from dust and we turn into dust, everybody does, no exception/.October 18, 2009 3:08 am at 3:08 am #662857plonisalmonisMember
Okay, my two cents – I am someone who thinks the whole brand-name thing is PATHETIC!!! But, truthfully, it depends why you are wearing/sporting it. If you are wearing it because you got a Ralph Lauren (My friend calls it [the logo] ‘Rachmana Letzlan’]) sweater for $25 in Marshalls, the kol hakavod, wear it all you want. If you’re wearing it for the shtick, then take it off, and stop acting so shtultzy. You don’t have to have the Gucci wristlet for $100.
I personally think the whole thing is very sad, especially because, like Gezuntheit said, a lot of the brand names are from anti-Semites.
I watched my sister go from someone not style/fashion conscious to someone much too conscious for my tastes. And she just doesn’t get it when I say that she doesn’t need the Kipling wristlet, and the Ugg shoes, and the Ralph Lauren shirt….. She’ll just give me excuses for every single one, totally not chapping that what she’s doing is a bad habit that can be come a money-eating hobby.
A note to those who feel they have to wear brand-names, for whatever reason they do – just make sure the logo is not too big that it’s not tznius. Ralph Lauren’s horses tripled in size and clash with the color of the shirt/sweater, but everyone just kept on wearing them. Watch those logos…October 18, 2009 3:22 am at 3:22 am #662858
Uh….. Bev and hud, maybe its because I live in mexico and most people here are very well off that people don’t feel the need to put other people down with their material blessings. I know the Brooklyn community very well and I also know how people struggle to make ends meet, I know how people live on food stamps, are on Medicaid and receive rent subsidies from the government, while at the same time they feel the need to spend every extra penny they have to buy material possessions to fit in.
B”H and Bli ayin hara I am not in that position, like I said most people in Mexico are materially blessed. I feel no need to get into details because there is no point in me telling everyone my personal life and my husbands business.October 18, 2009 5:25 am at 5:25 am #662859haifagirlParticipant
Slightly off topic but several years ago I heard about a particular community where people who couldn’t afford to do construction on their house (adding a room, renovating, etc.) would rent a dumpster to put outside so people would think they were doing construction.
It’s amazing what people will do to try to keep up with the neighbors.October 18, 2009 7:55 am at 7:55 am #662860outoftownerMember
Adding to what Mazca said,
I heard a mashal this shabbos… An old man had one last request before he died… He was on his deathbed, and his one last request was to be buried with his socks… He asked his family members to please find a heter for him to be buried with his socks.. They didn’t really know what to say, because they knew it was an impossible request. They told him they would see what they could do, but the man kept insisting that he be buried wearing his socks… The man was niftar, and his family tried to get a heter from a rav, but all of the rabbanim said it was not allowed, and impossible. The family felt bad not to follow with their father/grandfathers wish on his death bed, but what could they do? Halacha was halacha. The matter was forgotten. A few years later a closed envelope was found. They opened it up, and inside was a letter from their deceased father. They read it and inside the father mentioned the matter of the socks. He wrote he knew it would be impossible to bury him in his socks, and it was impossible to find such a heter. He wanted to teach a lesson that after you die, nothing comes with you. Not your money, your wealth, your car, your house, your designer labels, fancy clothes, and not even your socks… The only thing that comes with you is the Torah you learned, the mitzvos you did and your maasim tovim.
I am the last one to talk, I enjoy my jewelry, I enjoy my labels… I think the thing to keep in perspective is that the reason you should be doing the things you do is to impress the shechina, and not the schuna.October 18, 2009 8:27 am at 8:27 am #662861yoshiMember
I believe the big “purse” theory was created for the “modern” average woman, to make “it’s” surroundings appear smaller by comparison. Clothing sizes have changed (in the recent 50 years) to accommodate this ever “growing” trend, so why not other items such as purses, sunglasses, jewelry…October 18, 2009 11:35 am at 11:35 am #662862
d/ it look like we disagree??!!! i never said that its ok….its just none of your business…if s/o is spending 4 the wrong reasons e.g. impress ppl, put others down etc then that is def not right. but yr average well off person who likes to spend money, just because he wants to and if god gave him the money to do that, he can do as he wishes. yes its a great idea to giv charity and very commendable if u wanna hide ur wealth bec others mite feel bad but its def not s/t u have to do! i find it ridiculous that u all care so much abt the fact others have money and r able to spend it w/o care! mazca-u gotta calm downa bit. and shaatra-i couldn’t agree with u more. and please-i dont really care if u hav money and wear designer clothes or hav gone on cruises mazca….mayb read this a few more times 2 let it sink in. i think we all agreed that if ur spending 4 the wrong reasons thats not ok…otherwise please dont let anonymous ppl dictate ur lifestyle 4 u. its just ridiculous!October 18, 2009 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #662863tzippiMember
It’s funny, I read some semi-upscale women’s magazine. One just had a fashion spread called, The $30 Purse. They mix it up, a little. Occasionally you can find Target, Kohl’s, even Payless on those pages.
And BTW, if anyone spots me with a Coach purse I got it at the thrift shop (where I do a good bit of my shopping).October 18, 2009 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #662864
outoftowner I also heard that story once, but a few details were changed. 🙂October 18, 2009 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #662865pgMember
Buying good quality clothing is fine. But what really makes me laugh is when people are obviously wearing fine clothing, but their behavior is rude, curt, animialistic–men and women alike.
What is the point in wearing refined, expensive clothing when your behaviour is anything but refined? It makes you look like a real fool.
Your garments become beautiful only when your behaviour is beautiful and thoughtful toward others–the designer labels have nothing to do with it.
So stop honking your horns, stop running your carriages into other people, stop breaking the law, stop being rude and mean–and start being thoughtful and nice and honest. Then you will really be refined and cool, or whatever you are looking for in your desinger clothing.October 18, 2009 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #662866
The original post asked “should” not “can.” Of course you can. You can do a lot of things.October 18, 2009 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #662867
pg that is so trueOctober 18, 2009 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #662868
Yes a person could what they please, no question about it, we were just discusting if it is right, we have a saying “If it fits you wear it” and I mean about the critizicim. and this goes to all the people that got insulted because we just said it is not correct to make label wearing the abodazara of this generation, I am not exempt, but sometimes it fits sometimes it doesnt . Why an a person realize they are wrong and try to defend themselves by putting people down, of course derech erets is very important and a person should learn how to act between human beings and stop being arrogant like I said before we are nothing but dust.October 18, 2009 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #662869Be HappyParticipant
I copied this poem from a basement shop in Boro Park 30 years ago:
Designed . . . for Eternity??
I’ll tell you a story, ‘though ere I begin,
I warn you ’twill tear at your heart from within,
‘Tis the tale of a girl you’d be wont to admire,
With crystal clear purpose to which she’d aspire
She knew that this world of ours under the sun
Is merely a route to the World to Come.
All proceeded so smoothly and well,
Until a force as evil as Hell
Threatened to take her before her time –
To pluck her ere she was ripe on the vine.
Kin’ah, Ta’avah and Kovod, — our sages have taught,
Can take a man and make him to naught,
Can remove man from within this world –
Into an abyss a man can be hurled!
And so goes our tale, so sad to relate,
How the forces of evil sealed her fate,
How the net closed about this poor young lass
Who was ridden with ta’avah to dress with “class,”
Who sought the kovod of her friends’ admiration
(While her neshomo suffered from humiliation,)
Who felt a Kin’ah for people with labels
So sad how this life which could have been so sunny
Was ruined by such sinful wasting of money;
So sad how a girl who was not a bit “prust”
Could be caught in the net of absolute lust,
Caught in a sinister trap of Fashion
And the rest of this tale will turn you just ashen . . .
One bleak night it came to pass
That the Malach Hamoves sighted this lass;
He licked his chops and said “My what a treasure!
I’ll nab her and grab her while I’m at my leisure,
Right now when she’s single, lest there will be
A husband – so shackled in this misery.
There is no doubt that she’d just keep him hopping
With demands for more money so she could go shopping
To Bergdorf’s and Sak’s and Bonwit Teller.
Why – he would be such an unlucky feller!
She’d need a new sheitel each day of the week
For every new style of which fashion does speak.”
So while she was thinking, “Which style is the rage?”
He took her away at a very young age.
But lo and behold – and here is the saddest;
You would never guess it, for this is the maddest!
She refused to pass through the Heavenly Gates
Without proper tachrichim as Fashion dictates!!!
And her poor, sweet neshomo went floating, at best,
In outer space – with nowhere to rest;
That poor sweet neshomo shed many a tear
For what a fashionable tachrich to wear.
Now there was a Malach of heart so stout
Who took it upon him to help her out,
Who was so overcome with compassion
That he set out for earth to the world of fashion!
He canvassed Fifth Avenue, store to store,
Astounding the salesmen on every floor.
And her poor, sweet neshomo was tossing and turning
In outer space – for rest it was yearning!
Who heard of a Malach in Bergdorf’s before??
Or buying tachrichim in a department store?
Why – the whole Fifth Avenue buzzed with the fable
Of the angel who shopped for the designer label.
Not one bit of luck; not in one single store,
So he set out for Paris, to the House of Dior.
And her poor, sweet neshomo was tossing and turning
In outer space – for rest it was yearning!
He approached each designer straight down the line
From Geoffrey Beane to Calvin Klein,
But, shrugging his shoulders, Pierre Cardin
Said, “We only design for the living man,”
And all these exertions caused the Malach to pant –
Flung himself at the door of Yves St. Laurent.
And her poor, sweet neshomo was tossing and turning.
For rest it was yearning; for rest it was burning . . .
And maybe . . . a lesson at last it was learning??
And back down below the Malach was tiring,
Wanting to help – but never admiring.
One last try; one last fling –
“I’ll go to Halson, for he is the king.”
“Please, can you help me,” he tremblingly queried.
“To clothe a young lady who wants to be buried.”
“Out!” said Halson, as he puffed his cigar,
Even I think this is going too far!
And her poor, sweet neshomo was tossing and turning.
For rest it was yearning; for rest it was burning!
Oh surely . . .a lesson it must have been learning!
Below, the Malach was struggling and tiring.
He knew that in moments his time was expiring.
“If she’s not at the Heavenly Court for her trial,
They’ll send her below for many a mile.
If she’s not there to plead her own case
Then surely she’ll be in most awful disgrace.”
So he zoomed straight for heaven-not a moment too soon
Hoping, perhaps, – could he save her from doom??
And that poor, sweet neshomo was shaking and trembling
While inside, the Heavenly Court was assembling,
And one brave angel, heavenward bound,
Was sure, at last, that an answer he’d found,
And as the gates stated to close from within,
He came from behind and pushed her in!
And that poor sweet Neshomo, so weak and unstable.
Cared not any more for a designer label;
It struggled enough, requiring great might,
To shield itself from the heavenly light.
But lo! ‘Twas a battle, though gallantly fought.
For material clothing are counted for nought.
And all that money that was poured down the drain,
At present, caused terrible anguish and pain.
Then a great voice in heaven, all presence did fill
And, other than that, all was perfectly still.
“Who can defend this young lady?” it asked,
And the humble neshomo just stood there aghast.
Helpless and broken, in great trepidation,
Anguished and suffering humiliation,
So overcome with remorse and misgiving,
Wishing – just wishing, that it was still living.
Now, one small voice, all kindness and grace,
Broke the stillness and took its place,
The Malach, adopting a bold new stance,
Cried “Couldn’t she please have another chance?!
If this poor sweet neshomo with life you would bless,
Then surely this time she would know how to dress.”
That poor sweet neshomo just stood there in awe,
Trembling and shaking in fear of The Law;
And right there in heaven, thereby there ensued
An unprecedented, heavenly feud!!
The Malach Hamoves yelled and he shouted,
He puffed and he snorted; he fumed and he pouted.
But the kind little Malach, in voice crystal clear,
Quietly proved that the girl was sincere.
“Silence!” then stillness – all moved not a pace
As a Heavenly Decree decided the case.
And the kind little Malach, neshomo in tow,
Set out once more for the earth down below,
And this my friends is the end of my fable,
It is called “The Legend of the Designer Label.”
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