"Distance Your Path from It" — The Dangers of Academic Study

Home Forums Yeshiva / School / College / Education Issues "Distance Your Path from It" — The Dangers of Academic Study

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 133 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #614808
    EretzHaK
    Member

    Worth a few moments to read. Mods please indulge the unusual length:

    An Open Letter by HaRav Moshe Hillel Hirsch shlit”a

    Rosh Yeshivas Slobodka

    Member of Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah

    Today, boruch Hashem, there is a tremendous increase in Torah study, both in quantity and quality, amongst tens of thousands of avreichim. Households are being financed mainly by the wives who increasingly fill all the jobs in teaching, bookkeeping and computer programming which are limited. It is natural that some women seek out areas where there are available jobs which often require academic training to obtain the necessary degree to work in those areas. As is well known, our Torah leadership forbids these courses, as has been publicized so many times verbally and in writing.

    Before we explain the opposition to academic education, I wish to relate to one thing expressed by voices rising up from within our camp:

    Parents who see how their children struggle without means of livelihood cannot help but feel pained and embittered, which leads them to think sometimes, “So what’s so terrible about taking such courses? Doesn’t the family need parnossa so that the husband can continue learning? Necessity calls for this. In such a situation one should be lenient.” Some of them even go so far as to say, and I have heard this expressed to my dismay and find it even difficult to say, that the rabbonim do not sufficiently feel the economic pressure, for if they did, they would talk differently. They think that the rabbonim are taken care of financially, as are their children, and they don’t feel any financial pressure, so therefore it is easy for them to ban such courses. Chas vesholom that we utter such a thought. It is also altogether erroneous!

    The reality is otherwise. Those gedolim who decided what they decided, feel a total sense of responsibility and empathy towards every single one. They feel each person’s pain and their hardship in earning their bread. They also have families who find themselves in exactly the same predicament of want and deprivation and they know exactly how difficult a trial it is from their own firsthand experience. These gedolim are amongst us, living in our midst and not removed from the people or ensconced in their rooms and detached from reality where they say what they say. They sense the hardship and are living with us, bearing the burden and aching along with us, within their own families. What they ruled is a hard and fast psak! It was handed down with full responsibility, cognizance of the difficulty and with compassion for each and every one of us.

    And this is the first principle we must keep in mind when approaching this subject.

    *

    What danger, actually, lies in academic studies? The very fact of academia, as kosher and innocent as it may seem, is threatening to a girl who was in a protective environment all her life, of family, neighborhood and school, exposed only to love for Torah and yiras Shomayim, whether in Bnei Brak, Elad, Kiryat Sefer or Yerushalayim. Even if she already works in a chareidi workplace which meets the standards of halochoh and kedushoh, if she is suddenly exposed for several hours a week to secular-chiloni studies it can influence her. There is no guarantee that she is immune because all academic studies pose a risk. We are not really talking about something that is subtle and delicate but something more severe and threatening.

    Let us examine what the danger is in academia.

    The first thing to deal with is if the course itself incorporates kefirah, in whole or part.

    There are situations where one goes to university to learn something specific, on the campus itself, and let us assume that the course itself is kosher, but because it takes place on their turf, this situation can surely affect the student. I think that most of our community does not know what this really is since they were never in a university and have never visited such a campus. It is a very impressive place and a Bais Yaakov student who is suddenly exposed to such a big place, is taken by it. She goes to a class taught by a professor who comes from an entirely different world and she cannot help but being affected, if not awed. It puts her into a difference world, with a corresponding cooling off in her avodas Hashem.

    To say nothing of the secular student body to which she cannot normally help but be exposed to as well. Undoubtedly, arguments about religion will crop up and again, she will hear much kefirah. I believe that the very act of learning on a university campus and being exposed to the prevalent atmosphere, even if the course itself is kosher, but to sit in on it together with chilonim has a severe detrimental effect. In addition it is natural to want to make a good impression on classmates, and this will bring one to dress in a style that will meet the approval of the classmates. And I will not want to say things that may invite ridicule from other students. Enough said to make the point that it should not even be a consideration to go study in a real university.

    *

    The problem with our public is that it doesn’t understand what is wrong with an education where only other chareidi girls study, and the course material is entirely kosher. It is not a university. Just perhaps the teacher is secular, or perhaps so-called religious without a smattering of Torah spirit. What’s wrong? The course material itself is kosher. There are no fellow students to be a bad influence. So what’s wrong with this?

    One rav told me that a father came to him all wrought up: Why is such a course forbidden? I have two daughters who support their kollel husbands, whom I know to be serious, diligent talmidei chachomim. They are growing in learning all the time. Why shouldn’t my daughters be able to advance themselves in academic studies? The rav answered, “Before we continue, I want you to call up your daughters and ask them if they have been at all influenced by their lecturer.”

    The father was sure that there was no harm, but he called them anyway after the rav persisted. One daughter told him that while the course itself was fine, the lecturer occasionally injected snide remarks about the chareidi public and she couldn’t help but being affected by them.

    If we ask: what is the difference between such opinions stated by a lecturer and similar talk which we hear on the street or in the work place?

    There is a definite difference! A major one! In a course, the teacher is the `wise professor,’ with a glib tongue and in a position of authority. Respect is created by the knowledge he presents. If this lecturer utters mocking remarks or kefirah, his word surely has an impact.

    A father may claim: “My daughter is strong, has yiras Shomayim and such remarks will not influence her.”

    This is a grievous error! I know this from experience with boys’ education. A boy can be excellent in studies, a paragon in tefillah etc. but still harbor questions in emunah that no one else can detect. His parents will never know either. They are certain all is fine with their dear son. So, as well, it is with their beloved daughters.

    Therefore, if there is a teacher who does not believe in the Oral Torah or in Torah min haShomayim, and he is cooled off in his avodas Hashem and aspects of halacha, it can be disastrous.

    The Rambam writes in Hilchos Avoda Zara (Perek 2, Halacha 2): “Idolaters have written many works on idolatry and its main form of service and other aspects. Hashem commanded us not to read such books and not to even think or utter such related thoughts… And even if you don’t worship but just interest yourself in its form and have no intention of worshiping false gods, it is prohibited since this causes your thoughts to dwell on this. This relates to other things as well, so that every thought which causes a person to digress from the fundamentals of Torah is forbidden since such thoughts can sway a person in favor of those forbidden acts and we should not follow the musings of our hearts, since man’s mind is short.”

    It is referring here to a person who is only intellectually interested in heretical philosophy, which teaches us to what extent the Torah feared for a person’s exposure to kefirah. We can extrapolate this to our subject and see what can result from hearing heretical talk, and all the more so to be exposed to that kind of environment.

    *

    We are left with the problem of parnossoh.

    The answer is that we must be strong and know that everything is decreed in Heaven. Opening another faucet will not help us to extract more parnossoh from the same barrel. The parable told by the Chofetz Chaim of one who opened another faucet from the whiskey barrel. Doing so did not increase the total amount of whiskey in the barrel.

    So it is in all matters of hishtadlus. We must know that whatever was decreed in Heaven as far as parnossoh for someone is what he will have. Extraordinary hishtadlus will not improve matters. No doubt the nisoyon of parnossoh is very difficult, but one must strengthen emunah and bitochon.

    This is one more thing that should be mentioned. The standard of living since I first came to Eretz Yisroel 44 years ago has changed entirely. When I first came, there was a drastic difference between the standard of living in America and in Eretz Yisrael. Here there was no intense pursuit of worldly pleasures and a life of luxury.

    For example, once it was common to buy a new hat only once in four years. Today, a family must buy every boy a Borsalino at the beginning of each zman. This certainly requires a lot of money, and therefore it requires a job that has a higher income.

    There is no doubt that if the standard of living were lower, the nisyonos would be lower. This was the opinion of Maran HaRav Eliashiv zt”l, that bnei Torah and mevakshei avodas Hashem be’emmes should go back to smaller apartments and reduce their standard of living. The nisyonos that Hashem sends us are due to the fact that we should lower our standard of living.

    We must strengthen ourselves in our way of life, in Torah and tefillah, to increase our emunas chachomim and to accept what the chachomim tell us. Thereby Hashem will help us and there will be enough for everyone to have a proper parnossoh, shelo neivosh velo nikoleim velo nikosheil leOlom vo’ed.

    #1141159
    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    But it is not just “financial pressure”. It is the risk of actually being homeless and starving.

    #1141160
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Thanks for posting this, as it gives an inside view of what Charaidi society is thinking. If the Rav believes children should be living in Bedouin tents and foraging for vegetables in order for the man to stay in learning and the wife at home, Kol HaKavod, and he should believe that Hashem will provide. If he wants people to have apartments, heat and store-bought food, then he had better come up with a plan B.

    #1141161
    Rebbe Yid
    Participant

    So the issue isn’t with academic studies per se, it’s with how it’s done, with antisemitic overtones and so on. Perhaps it could be done in EY the way it’s done in USA, which doesn’t seem to be a problem and where the gedolim don’t seem to rail against it.

    #1141162
    FriendInFlatbush
    Participant

    Such a double-standard, especially how I see it in America. On the one hand, it is forbidden to go to college because you could learn things and be exposed to a lifestyle that is far from the realm of growing in ruchniyus. On the other hand, people are exposed to American culture in other ways, such as reading non-kosher books, watching things they shouldn’t (TV shows, movies, etc…). To be completely honest with you, I would much rather my kid take a law or biology class at Columbia University than spend those same hours speaking loshon hara or watching a movie. JMHO.

    #1141163
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rav Ovadiah Yosef disagrees with this, He allowed his daughter Adinah Bar Shalom to open Charedi College and when he was alive he taughter classes there.

    #1141164
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    So where was this letter published originally? It’s simply, uh, fascinating how closely it parallels recent CR discussions right down to the frequency of Borsalino hat purchasing. Hmm…

    #1141165

    I don’t get this – condemning an entire population to likely poverty on the basis on the flimsiest of arguments…?

    #1141167

    FiF, why is that the choice? I’m sure he’s also against l”h, TV and movies as well.

    #1141168
    goofus
    Participant

    Why are we so afraid of secular education? If torah is the emes, there should be no fear of falling into the trap set by academia.

    #1141169
    charliehall
    Participant

    The use of the quote from Rambam to argue against secular study is highly disingenuous. It refers to study of idolatry, not secular subjects in university. Rambam himself attended University in Morocco and mastered Greek and Islamic philosophy, science, and medicine. And he urged those who could to study science in order to more better appreciate HaShem’s creation.

    #1141170
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    First off, I’d like to know where the letter was published. I haven’t found it on any other site yet.

    If it proves to be real, I will make sure not to donate a penny to his yeshiva. After all, he wouldn’t want to take money I earned through going to college!

    #1141171
    MDG
    Participant

    While I appreciate his warnings about keeping away from kefira, his economic plan is severely lacking. Having faith in Hashem is not an answer for most people. See Brachot 35b (maybe 36b) where it says that the way of Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai (learn only) doesn’t work for most.

    _

    ” Those gedolim who decided what they decided, feel a total sense of responsibility and empathy towards every single one. They feel each person’s pain and their hardship in earning their bread. “

    In Brachot, around 25-26, Rabban Gamliel visits the home of Rebbi Yehoshua and is taken aback by the poverty. In that case, the Gadol had no idea how his own colleague was living until he went and saw it.

    #1141172

    How much have you donated until now?

    #1141173
    MDG
    Participant

    “Rav Ovadiah Yosef disagrees with this, He allowed his daughter Adinah Bar Shalom to open Charedi College and when he was alive he taughter classes there.”

    The question is not college, but rather hearing kefira at a chiloni college. Rav Ovadia Yosef might agree with Rav Moshe Hillel Hirsch because ROY encouraged a Charedi college, perhaps as an alternative to a chiloni college.

    #1141174
    πŸ‘‘RebYidd23
    Participant

    This actually happens to be the Internet.

    #1141175
    Trust 789
    Member

    Why are we so afraid of secular education? If torah is the emes, there should be no fear of falling into the trap set by academia.

    Wrong. The Torah is Emes. But still everything influences a person.

    #1141176
    OURtorah
    Participant

    Studying in university is putting more hishtadlus and you WILL make more money. So technically putting in more hishtadlus will make u a greater parnassa

    #1141177

    OURtorah, a ma’amin believes that Hashem gives what He wants us to have, regardless of hishtadlus. Nevertheless, hishtadlus is a chiyuv.

    #1141178
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    OURtorah, a maamin believes that Hashem gives what he wants us to have, regardless of hishtadlus. Nevertheless, hishtadlus is a chiyuv.

    A huge Machlokes in Machshava, and certainly not pashut. Certainly here, where many would say that not getting an education nowadays is Atzlus and a choice not to do appropriate Hishtadlus, it is much less Pashut.

    This is not the time or place to have this discussion.

    #1141179
    OURtorah
    Participant

    If I sit at home and do nothing My whole life money will not fall from the sky.

    #1141180

    I don’t know if this letter exists or not, nor can I comment on the status of the various educational institutions being referred to. However, I think most who have commented here have missed the point.

    The letter isn’t saying that because Hashem provides, we therefore do not need to do hishtadlus. It is saying that a certain type of hishtadlus is unacceptable, and as a result, we must avoid it, and use other means of hishtadlus, and even if it seems difficult, we must trust in Hashem to provide.

    Imagine what it was like in America when there was a six day work week, and people were told, “If you don’t show up on Saturday, don’t bother coning in on Monday”. Would you tell someone faced with that dilemma that poverty is horrible, and we need to do hishtadlus, so he would work on Shabbos? Or would tell them to have faith in Hashem that He will provide, a d pursue other forms of hishtadlus?

    I am not comparing going to academic institutions in Eretz Yisroel, which I know little about, to working on Shabbos. What I’m saying is that given that the letter writer assumed it to be unacceptable, he is not dismissing the requirement for hishtadlus, nor downplaying the suffering of people in poverty.

    #1141181

    Gavra, He may punish someone for atzlus, but that is not what we are talking about.

    #1141182
    OURtorah
    Participant

    Im currently in a secular collage- I really have to disagree with this. You can’t say things if you don’t experiance them.

    I’m not going to paint you a wonderful ladida picture of what a secular unviersity is, but I can tell you that you are overreacting. I have never had a more REAL growth experiance than the one I am getting here- in a place where Torah isn’t the norm.

    Do I think the way people speak here is disgusting? Yes. The professors jokes are innapropriate and I don’t understand most of them. But am I a completly functional Jew, moreso than I ever was. I dress exactly how I always do (covering knees, legs, coller bones elbows etc) I speak and carry myself like a frum Yid.

    I’m sorry I have a passion to help people in the health care field. I’m sorry Hashem gave me the ability and to kochos to pick up nesscairy skills to help get people better and make them smile on the meantime. I’m glad I’ve found them and putting them to good use. And if you want to tell me that hearing my professors kfira has made me off the derech, if anything it has strenghted who I am as a Jew, because I get to go home everyday and thank HASHEM for making the halacha and hashkafa where I don’t have to live up to the disgusting norms of the goyim.

    #1141183
    Avi Gordon
    Participant

    The article originally appeared in Hebrew in the Yated Ne’eman. I think it provides a frank observation of the potential dangers of attending even a frum college.

    Nonetheless, there are potential dangers of living a life of poverty.

    As a generalization, it appears that the Modern Orthodox world denies the dangers involved in attending higher education; in contrast, the Chareidi world seems to deny the effects of poverty and lack of marketable job skills among men.

    Perhaps some have gone off the derech after attending college. But we are also aware of kids going off the derech growing up in Chareidi homes with limited exposure to the secular world.

    And there is no mitzvah in the Torah to be poor. In fact, there is a mitzvah for a father to teach his son a profession.

    With all our wonderful emunah in Torah society, there are plenty of poor children who grow up malnourished. Whose fault is that?

    #1141184
    Letakein Girl
    Participant

    OURTorah,

    We had a class discussion about this a few weeks ago. I expressed my view on the matter, which incidentally was the same as yours, and my teacher explained why it’s better for most BY girls not to go to secular colleges.

    You and I both grew up in open minded homes, by which I mean to say that we were exposed to secular culture somewhat. So when some random dude would ask us if we want to study for a test with him, we would know how to politely refuse. Whereas a sheltered BY girl that has never spoken to a male other than her immediate family members would find themselves unable to turn the guy down (guys can be persuasive of need be…)

    The same would occur if someone would ask a BY girl a question on Judaism. Firstly, she most probably wouldn’t know what to answer, as BYs generally don’t give kiruv classes to their students, and second, she would end up getting into a conversation, and possibly an eventual relationship, with whoever asked her the question.

    My teacher said that she knew of many cases like that.

    #1141185
    Joseph
    Participant

    There isn’t a homeless problem in Bnei Brak nor is the cemetery being filled with folks who starved to death. Lower living standards? Yes. That’s what the RY said, in fact, people should accept. Almost all, if not all, the problems the RY listed with college would be applicable in the U.S. as well. He doesn’t exclude frum colleges, though notes additional pitfalls in secular colleges. Hishtadlus does not demand college and there are other forms of hishtadlus available. If anyone thinks putting themselves in a spiritually unsound environment will not have lasting effects on themselves, they’re probably fooling only themselves.

    Anyways, I counted up the votes above and, clearly, the RY is outvoted by far. Since as we all know we go by the majority, we should start doling out free scholarships to Harvard. Yeshiva guys who go to Harvard don’t come out any less ruchniyus than yeshiva guys who instead of going to college, say, run a seforim store for parnassa.

    #1141186
    charliehall
    Participant

    ” our Torah leadership forbids these courses”

    Actually it is a machloket. There are many gedolim with university educations. And even some Rishonim (Rambam and Sforno) attended universities.

    #1141187
    charliehall
    Participant

    ” it appears that the Modern Orthodox world denies the dangers involved in attending higher education”

    That isn’t completely true. I have personally heard Rabbi Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, former Executive VP of the OU, who himself has a Ph.D., speak very strongly about the dangers.

    #1141188
    charliehall
    Participant

    ” if she is suddenly exposed for several hours a week to secular-chiloni studies it can influence her. There is no guarantee that she is immune because all academic studies pose a risk”

    If *everyone* who goes through the Torah educational system comes out at risk, there is something badly wrong with the system. Is a Torah-based hashkafah so fragile that a single cynical professor can cause someone to go off the derech?

    #1141189
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    R’ Hutner zt”l had a degree.

    The Novominsker Rebbe went to Brooklyn College.

    My Rosh Yeshiva’s father, R’ Dovid Bender zt”l had a degree in Accounting.

    R’ Hutner and R’ Shraga Feivel Mendlowitz were going to open a joint yeshiva/college, but R’ Aharon Kotler insisted they abandon their plan.

    #1141190
    interjection
    Participant

    I thought he was going to end off saying that it’s better for the husband to also get a job than for the wife to go to college.

    #1141191
    interjection
    Participant

    With all our wonderful emunah in Torah society, there are plenty of poor children who grow up malnourished. Whose fault is that?

    Lapid

    #1141192
    interjection
    Participant

    You and I both grew up in open minded homes, by which I mean to say that we were exposed to secular culture somewhat. So when some random dude would ask us if we want to study for a test with him, we would know how to politely refuse. Whereas a sheltered BY girl that has never spoken to a male other than her immediate family members would find themselves unable to turn the guy down (guys can be persuasive of need be…)

    Most BY girls would’ve avoided having any discussion with a male in the first place but they would definitely avoid studying with him one-on-one. Unless a large part of the reason they went there in the first place was to get male friends and they were dishonest about their motives.

    The same would occur if someone would ask a BY girl a question on Judaism. Firstly, she most probably wouldn’t know what to answer, as BYs generally don’t give kiruv classes to their students, and second, she would end up getting into a conversation, and possibly an eventual relationship, with whoever asked her the question.

    That’s a problem with BY education, not with college. Why would someone spend thousands of dollars on their daughters for 12 years to get a Torah education if that education doesn’t teach them the basic tenets of Judaism. You’d think that at some point in 12 years they would have taught “mah shetashiv le’apikores”. If a secular kid knows more about hashkafa than they do after having spend 12 years learning about Judaic hashkafa, that’s not exactly a compliment about the way BY education is set up.

    And she’s going to end up in a relationship because they had a conversation? If she was really all that frum she would’ve avoided the conversation to begin with. If she was really all that truthseeking she would’ve called a rabbi to find out the truth.

    #1141193
    old man
    Participant

    To the OP:

    Thank you for posting this. I read it carefully and I have no doubt it is bonafide. It reflects the Litvish yeshivishe hashkafah. If anything, it is quite understated, others have been been much more emphatic in their opposition to secular/academic studies.

    So now, time will tell, if it hasn’t already, as to whether this hashkafah provides the recipe for the future success of the yeshivishe community.

    #1141194
    TheGoq
    Participant

    “The letter isn’t saying that because Hashem provides, we therefore do not need to do hishtadlus. It is saying that a certain type of hishtadlus is unacceptable”

    So what type of hishtadlus should one in poverty do? panhandle? rob a bank?

    So lior you are saying that poverty is non existent? we should lower our standard of living? ok kinderlach i am sorry we have to cut back so for dinner tonight all we are having is a slice of bread each and a half a carrot.

    #1141195
    Avi K
    Participant

    The danger is that they will get out of poverty and dependence. Then the askanim two control them will be in big trouble. They might even vote for Yachad c”v.In contrast Yeshivat Har Beracha has a Torani professional training program in conjunction with Ariel University and, of course, there are Machon Lev and the kollel in Bar-Ilan.

    #1141196
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    IMO the Yeshivish community will survive, however the poverty will be deeper and deeper and many people will just grin and bear it, There will be more people going OTD because they cant feed and support their families however with the high birthrate these people will easily be replaced and become expendable

    #1141197
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Gavra, He may punish someone for atzlus, but that is not what we are talking about.

    Perhaps. But if the alternative to a professional education is being a businessperson who works 50+ hours Al Pi Teva a week, and the woman only works 30-40 because that is what professionals do, that is Atzlus. Being that the Rov does not say what he does expect women to work as (just not teaching, bookkeeping and computer programming/code monkey), I can’t be sure, but it would be logical that a strong frontrunner would be to open a small business.

    #1141198
    Avi K
    Participant

    Zehavasdad, it’s very difficult to grin when you cannot move because of starvation. IMHO (and we are already seeing this with the overtures of working Chareidim to Eli Yishai) people will not go OTD in the sense of not keeping Shabbat, etc. However, they will ignore pronouncements like the one at the top of this thread, learn professions and go to work in the geenral economy. Perhaps they will form a coalition with the Chardal sector both politically and religiously.

    #1141199
    GolemGorilla
    Member

    zahavasdad For example, once it was common to buy a new hat only once in four years. Today, a family must buy every boy a Borsalino at the beginning of each zman.

    zahavasdad Do u really need a new Borsalino every year?

    I for one haven’t gotten a new Borsalino since my bar mitzvah.

    #1141200
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    I think another issue that can come from letters like this is that people will lose their trust in their Rabbonim. When a Rav tells you don’t go to school, it’s better to be hungry, would you want to follow him, or find another Rav?

    #1141201
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I am not talking about a Borsalino hat, I am talking about more basics like Food and Rent. Lack of proper nutitioin is becoming an issue.

    Avi K if people see pronouncements like this and ignore them and maybe even think they were misled they will begin to question other pronoucements as well. And you are on your road to OTD

    #1141202

    DaMoshe, if you trust your rav, that won’t happen. I’m not saying he’s right or wrong, but lots of things in Yiddishkeit can be difficult. If you trust your rav, and he tells you something is wrong, you listen to him.

    #1141203
    DaMoshe
    Participant

    DY, I’m not saying it’s the right thing to do. I’m just looking at what may realistically happen.

    #1141204
    OURtorah
    Participant

    Lettakin girl- your 100% right. I guess being exposed to the world growing up has helped shape me into a really well rounded and strog person.

    So now my question is for everyone- what is wrong with someone like me? What is wrong with showing your children how to interact with the world around you starting from an age where they can understand it. Showing them that you can still be completely frum and you don’t even need to go to university or have a job in the world- but just so that they r not fragile coming or of the system. Why can’t the chinuch at home in addition to the wonderful chinuch at school be to be the example and show your kids how you can interact appropriately with the world.

    You say so many kids go off the derech- I’m not one to talk I basically picked up Halacha and I mean real strong Halacha less than three years ago. But ever since I’ve joined the more yeshivish charedi community I’ve tried picking out the flaws in the communities I’ve grown up in and the community I’ve entered and I’ve built myself so I can try to conquer those flaws. And IYH that’s how I want to raise my children. I’m not saying I’m perfect I have tons of growing and learning to do. But I am saying that maybe someone needs to re calculate how their community is being run. Maybe there is a way to appropriately show your children how to interact with the world so that if they do decide they want to get a real degree they can still be frum doing so.

    What’s so wrong with balance? I’m not saying immerse yourself in the modern world, I’m saying when you take your kids on trips and yor interacting with the world around you, say even though we’re at the beach we still dress tzniously Cuz it’s a beautiful thing. And the people around us- they don’t understand the Torah. They don’t get the beautify of the things we are blessed to do.

    #1141205
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And what if you Rav says, Hashem will provide and you are maxed out on your credit cards, There is no food in the house and the kids are Hungry, the rent is due, the creditors are calling you on the phone and you new Son-in-Law demands a new Borsilano Hat or he will divorce your daughter and no new money comes in. (I have heard recently of a number of cases where a new son-in-law demanded some luxury item and thretend to go to Beis Din because the In-Laws couldn’t pay for it)

    #1141206

    Zahavasdad, that post should have been a troll thread.

    #1141207
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    So now my question is for everyone- what is wrong with someone like me?

    I apologize, but the answer would take up way too much time and space, and the mods would never approve such a long list.

    πŸ™‚

    Seriously, it is the old argument of strengthening the people inside the walls vs. strengthening the walls themselves. Charaidism has chosen to strengthen the walls separating them from all outsiders (non Charaidis) and not the people inside, while others have chosen to knock down the walls and attempt to strengthen those inside.

    As you point out, the correct answer for most is probably a combination of the two. That being said, simple people who can not understand nuance and (although book-smart) have no street-smarts will fail from any outside exposure, hence the Charaidi shittah.

    #1141208
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Zahavasdad, that post should have been a troll thread.

    Taz Bach meat.

    zahavasdad – In that case, you camp out on the Rov’s front doorstep until either he provides or changes his mind.

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 133 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.