October 27, 2011 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #600209sheinMember
Does misinformation in halachic discussions, or posting shvere daas yochid’s that we pasken against, cause some readers to be nichshal in an aveira based on what they read online?October 27, 2011 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #868015Sam2Participant
I think the assumption is that readers are smart enough to know to ask a Shaila before doing anything Lema’aseh, especially in an anonymous forum. While I personally wouldn’t post any Halachic opinions or sources unless I was confident enough to hold by them myself, no one here has any idea who I am or if I actually know anything. So I think people with a bit of Seichel know not to take anything Lema’aseh from here.October 27, 2011 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #868016sam4321Participant
I would hope not that would be silly for someone to pasken from a website without first looking it up or asking a Rov.October 27, 2011 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #868017popa_bar_abbaParticipant
????? ???? ? ?????? ???? ?? ?????? ????? ??October 27, 2011 6:22 pm at 6:22 pm #868018
It could – but only among young and inexperienced Net users. I, for one, can tell a kid looking for attention or a confused kid or malcontent with one eye closed. I know not to engage those types in debate but rather to make it clear that they are worthy only of sarcasm and mockery.October 27, 2011 6:27 pm at 6:27 pm #868019yitayningwutParticipant
Well put PopaOctober 27, 2011 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #868020
If the left wing academic you are referring to is the left wing academic known for commenting on this site, there is literally no way the rest of that comment is not a rather severe issue d’oraysah and should be modded. V’hamvin yavin.October 27, 2011 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #868021
No, it is emes. Not mosheemes but emes Moshe.October 27, 2011 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #868022
being emes does not make something mutar to sayOctober 27, 2011 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #868023
If you belive its emes, then its Loshon Hara, If you dont belive its emes then its slanderOctober 27, 2011 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #868024
Let’s change this question to be: Does having a forum on a yeshivish site where everyone is free to post whatever they feel like it as long as it can sneak past the mods a good idea? A few years back someone said one of the books of tanach was a historical fraud, and it got past the mods. So assuming the answer is yes and caveat emptor, having a halachic discussion is no worse than anything else on the site. In fact, it’s better because people can’t be manipulated into posting private info like they can on the “socializing” threads, and many members of the CR are excluded by nature of the discussion. Nobody is going to CR coffee room for halacha lemaaseh instead of to their rav.October 27, 2011 7:47 pm at 7:47 pm #868026
An invalid kula may give a reader ideas he never thought of before, that he would then have in his head and may come to unfortunately utilize later. As Mod-80 pointed out on the Kiddush Hashem thread.October 27, 2011 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #868027
It is preventing a michshol. All halachos of loshon horo are superseded by physical or spiritual pikuach nefesh, outside of leftyland where they hold by the Chofetz Chaim when it pays them to, but they consider him a benighted black hatter (chas vesholom) when his psak or eitza does not suit them.
This is my last post here, ever. I came here, despite the many attacks on my Chassidus and my Rebbe, because there were standards here. After this censorship of my post, I realize that there are not– and goodbye once and for all. I am about to add the coffee room to my filter.
editedOctober 27, 2011 8:08 pm at 8:08 pm #868028
If ideas presented here are a michshol, then the whole Coffee Room is a michshol and should be shut down. Otherwise, it must be censored to never allow anything more than recipes and divrei torah.October 27, 2011 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #868029
So, Jothar, which of the two alternatives you present do you believe is the case?October 27, 2011 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #868030
i prefer the second alternative.
but thats not going to happen.October 27, 2011 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #868031apushatayidParticipant
You dont want to censor recipes, or divrei torah?October 27, 2011 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #868032
Mod-80: You prefer Jothar’s second alternative but say it’ll never happen. Jothar’s first alternative seems even less likely to happen.October 27, 2011 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #868033
You dont want to censor recipes
There are plenty of recipes Id Like to censor.
I personally cant stand schmaltz HerringOctober 27, 2011 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #868034nitpickerParticipant
it depends. some topics do not belong here.
only comment in this thread.
as for whether coffee room itself is a michshol, a vote was requested before it was instituted. I voted against.October 27, 2011 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #868035apushatayidParticipant
Speaking of shmaltz herring (hopefully this is a topic that wont be nichshol anyone)…..
When I was younger, I once declined some shmaltz herring an older man put out for tikkun. He replied to me, vat, you dont eat shmaltz herring, maybe ve shud check de yichus?October 27, 2011 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #868036
you might not believe this
i also voted againstOctober 27, 2011 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #868037
Divrei torah is the same issue, actually, as divrei halacha. someone could post a dvar torah that is complete apikorsus, and it could get past the mods.
Obaminator, my answer to drudgestein is “ask your rav”. My own netiyah is to shut it down completely (stalkers, apikorsus, socializing, etc), but as mentioned in Taaruvos thread I’m just a balabos. Plus, I have a negiah that I sometimes waste time here instead of studying parnassah skills. So my judgement is faulty.
So I leave that question for those greater than me. Could be his rav will say “it’s not a michshol b/c everyone knows this place is bittul zman”, and it can stay open as before.
The Netziv shut down his yeshiva rather than do something which he felt compromised the sanctity of his yeshiva. If his Rav agrees with me, will Drudgestein have the courage to pull the plug and lose sticky content?October 27, 2011 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #868038ToiParticipant
i think movements and ideas get discredited due to character assassination. in turn, torah true ideas get knocked around and people may log off thinking badly about talmidei chachomim etc. and thats a sakanah.October 27, 2011 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #868039
I dont think Schmaltz Herring is kosher for anyone under 70October 27, 2011 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #868040
I’m sorry you feel that way. The Issur I was referring to though wasn’t Lashon Hara (or anything that to my knowledge the Chofetz Chaim talks much about) and was something I’d imagine from your comments you were unaware of. On the other hand you should be more careful in what you write, because in this example certainly, and possibly in many others, there just might be things happening you’re not aware of.October 27, 2011 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #868041sheinMember
nitpicker & Mod80: When and where was this vote taken? (link?) What were the results?October 27, 2011 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #868042
it was a poll on the front page
there is no link
there arent polls anymore
i dont recall the resultsOctober 27, 2011 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #868043
What was the wording of the question, 80?
me2: V’Ahavta Es HaGer doesn’t preclude correct criticism.October 27, 2011 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #868044
The question is more relevant now that the CR has been up and running for a while- continue or shut it down? That might also depend if people agitate against the cr here like they did against other frum news sites like [redacted] to get them in cheirem.
As this is a complicated shaila, it’s best left up to a rav, not the denizens of the CR. But, like all other weighty issues of the cr, it will end up being debated by the denizens of the cr.October 27, 2011 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #868045
It most certainly does preclude suggesting that he’s no different hashkafically than he was before his geirus. That 6KB didn’t know that’s what he was saying (I hope) doesn’t make it any more mutar to say. Also, this conversation, is exactly the one I think shouldn’t be happening, and the irony of it happening on this thread is not escaping me.October 28, 2011 12:52 am at 12:52 am #868046Sam2Participant
I do not see why Halachic discussions in the CR would be any worse than Halachic discussions anywhere else. Do we say not to have Halachic discussions anywhere unless you’re a Rav because you might get something wrong? Of course not. I don’t see what makes the CR different than anywhere else.October 28, 2011 12:59 am at 12:59 am #868047shmoelMember
The CR is open to the hamon hoam and the uneducated easily gullible masses.October 28, 2011 1:14 am at 1:14 am #868048shmoelMember
Much worse than online halachic discussions are online personality discussions and online Jewish political discussions and online machlokes discussions, all of which entail sheker, loshon hora, rechilus, and/or motzi shem ra as well as a host of a whole lot of other extremely serious aveiros, in virtually all such discussions and stories.
Both by participating in the discussion or even by merely reading it passively without active participation.October 28, 2011 2:55 am at 2:55 am #868049
Shmoel, hiskosheshu vekoshu.October 28, 2011 2:58 am at 2:58 am #868050ItcheSrulikMember
Why do some people insist on complaining every time the CR sees a good halacha discussion?October 28, 2011 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #868051BTGuyParticipant
Jothar, I would like to ask you why you are participating in a venue that you are against? Why do you own a computer? Why do you have internet? Why do you post? Why do you visit such posting forums? Why here on a Jewish site and not some random anti-semitic website?
Where does your crusade begin and where does it end? If your goal is to ensure only proper information is dispensed to people and that no one is manipluated, well, you have the whole world to work on. You can patrol every Jewish community and interview every one in every Jewish community to ensure they are correct in their views. What you would have the power to do after that, is uncertain. You can call yourself the Thought Police.
I think since you prefer your crusade to be online, rather than in person, that makes you a “suspicious online person”, not so far removed from the kind of person you claim to be “protecting us from”.
And what are those similarities? You are crossing personal boundaries. The line where you end and the other person begins, does not exist. On top of that, you are repeatedly posting you have a righteous purpose (excuse) for being this way.
In all social venues people can learn good information or bad information. This site, I would say, has among the most thoughtful and sincere and “sociable” posters you will find anywhere. To be on guard, or even against every single component of this forum because there may be wrong information passed on, as you say, is a question of someone possibly having an anti-social leaning in how they handle concerns that may have merit. Don’t use a good point as an excuse to not respect the boundary line where you end and the other person begins.
Computers are incessantly known for certain personality types to have free reign where in real life they would not. I hope you are not the kind of person you are warning us about. Everyone else seems ok, but to me, you are not “blending” in a friendly way.October 28, 2011 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #868052
Btguy, you raise some good questions.
I post here because I enjoy the thrill of posting something and having people respond. I hate myself for it, as it takes away from doing studying, but it is what it is. I didn’t make the decision to open the CR, but once it’s open, why not participate?
Everyone is free to post how they feel. There are no editors making sure everything is hashkafically correct. The question is, do people understand that when reading the site or do people think everything here represents daas torah? Someone here posted that one of the books of tanach was a historical fraud. This is not an Orthodox view, but was posted here. Do people know this when they read the site?
As for “blending” and my crusade, I am not a crusader. My vigilance goes as far as the mods allow it to go. They can ban me from the site with the click of the mouse. If you see me eliciting personal info, feel free to ban me- what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. I mean nothing personal. I bear no ill will towards anybody. I understand that I will be attacked by well-meaning posters for this, and I accept this and am mochel everyone.October 28, 2011 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #868053
its 3 clicksOctober 28, 2011 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #868054BTGuyParticipant
Jothar, you explained yourself well. I am mochel everyone too. Thank you for being mochel, as well. I only gave myself the privilege of being outspoken to you only because I saw some of your posts were analyzing and being outspoke the others, and then it seemed regardless of the point of the thread, your message was the same. I agree with you safety is very important. Internet safety is an area all to itself. I am glad you are making people aware that not all posters may be what they seem to be. I agree with you that no one should be hurt, obviously. I may be wrong, but it seemed to be your numerous suggestions of closing the place down for no current reason was like wanting to stop issuing driver licenses because someone may get into an accident, which is far more prevalent, tragically, than anything occurring on this particular site.
Anyway, the important thing is I want to thank you for learning, as you are supporting the world spiritually, and I am grateful to you. Also, Have a great Shabbos!! 😀October 28, 2011 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #868055EnglishmanMember
Like said, the LH, MSR, and Rechilus discussions — which probably constitute a majority of discussions — are far far worse than the pitfalls of halachic discussions.October 30, 2011 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #868056
And that’s a pitfall of the front page even more than here. There are items on the front page that belong in [redacted charedi LH blog], not here.April 18, 2012 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #868057sefardi tahorParticipant
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