Do you love all Jews…

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  • #1800209

    Joseph
    Participant

    So y’all love George Soros, Avi Weiss, Bugsy Siegel, Cardinal Jean Lustiger, etc?

    #1800262

    laughing
    Participant

    Jean Cardinal Lustiger was a tzaddick. Some may say misguided but that doesn’t take away what he did for Israel and the Jewish people.

    #1800271

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    laughing, be careful to use a capital letter when referring to Hashem.

    #1800649

    Milhouse
    Participant

    laughing, Lustiger was a meshumad, a Jew who chose of his own free will to become an idolater. Nothing he did for Jews or Israel can possibly cancel that.

    Now John Cardinal O’Connor was a true tinok shenishbeh, he never knew he was a Jew, it was only discovered after his death. So his avoda zara can be overlooked, and we can wonder at how his yiddishe neshoma, trapped in such a life, nevertheless managed to manifest itself and cause him to be such an ohev yisroel.

    #1800654

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Learn Perek 32 of Tanya. If you think of yourself as a body in which a neshoma rests, then you will consider everyone else the same way, and in that case you can’t love every Jew, because some Jews’ bodies do very ugly things.

    But if you first think of yourself as a neshoma, literally a part of G-d Above, that happens to currently be resting in a body, then you will think of others the same way; and when you see a Jew whose body does wrong you will love him all the more, and feel sorry for him, trapped in such a situation and unable to influence his body to do better.

    #1800688

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    “Standing up for emes doesn’t mean hating someone who does something incorrect. It means davening for their teshuva.“

    There is something called שנאת חנם (baseless hatred) however שנאה that is מותר is when it’s not baseless

    #1800706

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    I actually have more animosity towards Neturei Karta than I do towards Reform. Not hatred though.

    #1800715

    Neturei Karta do have a basis in Judaism however cracked they end up coming
    whether you like it or not

    #1800745

    IMO Reform is worse than neturei karta, as although neturei karta want our destruction physically, the Reform want our destruction both physically and spiritually. Don’t believe me? look up the video of the Reform saying kaddish for terrorists. That’s the proof they want us destroyed physically, and we all know how they want to destroy us spiritually.

    #1800812

    Joseph
    Participant

    Avi Weiss and the rest of the Open “Orthodox”are much worse than even the Reform reshoyim.

    Hating NK is no different than hating, say, the Sefardim since they have different views than you.

    #1800813

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Wrong!

    Reform can theoretically be considered Tinok Shenishba. I really never heard of this concept of Reform praying for our destruction. That sounds like a fabrication. In don’t agree with their ways but I don’t hate them.

    Neturei Karta are worse because they use the guise of religion and the Torah to go against the Jews. The question is if NK are even Zera Israel. Yisroel Weiss gives me goyish vibes.

    #1800817

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The people saying Kaddish for Terorist, might be rabbis who are reform, but they are not Reform rabbis, much like some of the NK meeting with Ahmadinejad, they are not Orthodox Rabbis, but Rabbis who are Orthodox.

    The reform leadership gives no such endorsement to such activities (They cannot stop it either)

    #1800822

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Reform do not say kaddish for terrorists, and there are no videos of any Reform synagogue doing so.

    Reform is a foreign religion, no different from Islam or Buddhism, but it so happens that a very large percentage of its members are Jewish by birth, with Jewish neshamos. That percentage is probably less than 50%, but still very high. The same is probably true of Buddhism in NY; there’s a very good chance that a randomly selected NY Buddhist, if s/he appears to be white, is a Jew. We have to love the Jew, but we have no connection at all to the religion s/he is practicing.

    The Hirsh gang within NK (not the real NK) are ochrei yisroel; they actively collaborate with the enemies of the Jewish nation, which makes them traitors. If we know they’re Jewish we need to have pity on their neshamos.

    #1800826

    Milhouse
    Participant

    The people saying kaddish for terrorists are not Reform. They are “IF Not Now”, an antisemitic organization funded by Alexander Soros. All four of his grandparents were Jews, so he is one too.

    #1800828

    And anyways, even if the reform were just destroying us spiritually, that would still make them worse than NK as a spiritual destruction is much worse because a physical destruction would make us lose olam hazeh but a spiritual destruction would make us lose our olam habah, which is a much bigger loss. That’s not to say that the NK aren’t reshoim. Of course they are reshoim, and I am not trying to minimise that. What I am saying is that the Reform movement is much worse than them and we should also hate their leaders too. Of course we don’t hate the ones who are a tinok shenishba, but it would be hypocrital to hate neturei karta but not the reform rabbis or the anti-orthodox activists within the reform movement. And don’t tell me that the reform rabbis are also tinok shenishba, they know very well what they are doing.

    #1800829

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    As the radio podcast asks every motzi shabbos: “Moishiach in the Air”.???? Based on the substance and tone of this thread, I’d renew your radio contract for the next year or two since your question will still be timely.

    #1800840

    Gadolhadorah, either explain why I’m wrong or don’t say anything. Smug comments won’t help you in this debate.

    #1800857

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Why didn’t Reform occur in Sephardic lands?

    #1800854

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Chesterfield: Smug? Not really. I happen to believe that unconditional ahavas yisroel is a condition precedent to z’man moishiach. You may not. Thats the brilliance of the CR. You don’t get banned for expressing (respectfully) a dissenting view.

    #1800864

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yabia: Because 50% of the sephardim converted to Christianity in Spain and Portugal. So their bad apples became Catholic whereas the Askenazic bad apples became Reform.

    #1800865

    I am not saying you should be banned, I am saying that you should explain your opinion or don’t bother commenting at all, which you still haven’t done. On what basis do you say that unconditional ahavas yisroel is a must for the moshiach to arrive? If a person commits an aveiroh to rebel against hashem he is not considered amisecho, and we learn this in hilchos loshon hora, and the mitzvah of ahavas chinam only applies to those who are considered amisecho.

    #1800866

    Yabia Omer, that is because the Haskalah didn’t occur in muslim lands because the Age of Enlightenment didn’t reach to the middle east. What point are yout trying to make?

    #1800875

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Why didn’t Reform occur in Sephardic lands?

    Because unfortuantly many Rabbanim were not up to the task of being the town Rabbi and didnt always do the proper thing and when Napoleon spread the ideas of the French Revolution , One of which was the Catholic Church was corrupt, some jews adopted a similar idea towards the jewish leadership and it become Reform and the Haskallah

    #1800876

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Cardinal Lustiger is a bad example, a better example is Israel Zolli, the former Chief Rabbi of Rome who converted to Christianity in 1945 after selling out the Jewish community of Rome to the Nazis while he was protected by the Pope

    #1800879

    Phil
    Participant

    “Hating NK is no different than hating, say, the Sefardim since they have different views than you.”

    Joseph,

    Only [you] would compare the monsters who support our bloodthirsty enemies in Gaza on Shabbos and in Tehran as part of a Holocaust Denial conference, to Sefardim.

    #1800880

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Yabiah:. different mesorah and minhagim although none would ever be described as “reform” Also, the islamic culture in many of these “Sephardic” countries was itself fairly “traditional” and there was very little in the way of “progressive” social movements, egalitarianism etc.

    #1800892

    devny
    Participant

    “Hating NK is no different than hating, say, the Sefardim since they have different views than you.”

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    #1800900

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    GH: I think this is partly true.

    Capital ‘H’ Haskala didn’t occur in Muslim lands but we have to realize that those countries were very advanced in the sciences, the arts, astronomy, philosophy, etc. And it was in these lands that Sephardic rabbis were able to flourish. We don’t see the Rambam, Ritva etc. becoming reform (Chas vechalila) because they were exposed to “enlightened” societies.

    Another point is that in general, Sephardic leadership tried to keep EVERYONE in the fold. If you were mechalel Shabbat, you were not banished. In Europe, they actively created walls against those who were not 100% in the fold. And that is why even nowadays you will see a spectrum of people in Sephardic shuls coexisting peacefully and organically. Among Ashkenazim, we’ve got MO shuls, black aht shuls, Chabad shuls, Yeshivish shuls etc. etc.

    Don’t you guys ever questions this??

    #1800902

    Sam Klein
    Participant

    We all have a Mitzva in the Torah to keep of ” V’ahavta l’reiacya kamocha” love your brothers as yourself. No matter how Jewish or not they are.

    #1800905

    ” the rest of the Open “Orthodox”are much worse than even the Reform reshoyim.”

    Undoubtedly agree

    #1800910

    whitecar
    Participant

    Depends if i had my coffee

    #1800904

    “concept of Reform praying for our destruction. That sounds like a fabrication. In don’t agree with their ways but I don’t hate them.”
    And what of the hellenists of two Millennia ago would you say the same
    care to explain the difference

    They pray-whatever the term might be worth
    against our Redemption which is hardly different
    More so
    the goal is against everything that we have stood for and stand for since the beginning of creation and into the future – irrespective of the average paying member who is ignorant is aware of

    is that worse than Than those who endanger us

    #1800903

    ‘The paradox of outrage.
    We believe that at the core of reality there lies a G-d who is essentially good and cares for each one according to his or her needs, guiding each one to the right path, punishing wickedness and rewarding goodness in fair and equal measure. And so, over and over we are outraged–because what we experience flies in the face of this entire belief.
    Yet, if we abandon either pole of the paradox, we might as well have never been born. If we learn to ignore the existence of the evil , finding some justification for G-d or simply hiding our heads in the sand–then for what purpose were we placed in such a world? To leave it as we found it? And what kind of a G-d have our justifications created?
    But if we should surrender our G-d, concluding that, “there is no Judge and therefore no justice”–then what value does my life have? What value does any life have? And what, then, is the point of all the outrage?
    This is the drama created by a G-d entirely beyond any form of understanding–a drama powered by the agonizing tension of paradox.

    #1800962

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yabia: That half the Sefardic population converted to Catholicism doesn’t give you pause?

    #1800959

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I think Yabia makes a really critical point…..historically, the Sephardeshe yiidden were considerably more monolithic and there were fewer schisms as among the Ashkenazim. In one narrow context, I’ve always found myself more welcome as a stranger in a Sephardeshe shul than among Ashkenaz (except perhaps for chabad). Maybe its because there numbers are fewer, but I sense there are fewer instances of splintered shuls among the Sephardishe tzibur where a group feels compelled to start their own minyan because of some disagreement with the Rav or over hashkafah.

    #1801005

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    coffee addict, you are mistaken. It does not mean that hatred that is not baseless is mutar just that the Torah wants us to resolve it by not keeping it bottled up in the heart by admonishing each other. This can only be done if there is a reason for the hatred. See the Yad Yoseph on the Ein Yaakov Yome 9. also the Rashbam on the pasuk, Vayikro 19,17.

    #1800993

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Thank you GH. Very interesting points.

    On another note, who is this “Joseph”??

    #1801162

    ziongate,etc.,

    he may be eccentric but he’s entitled to his seemingly sincere opinion and so are the others
    Do you have any basis for your allegations against Joseph
    changing monikers so quickly is not that easy

    #1801175

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Yabia Asks: “On another note, who is this “Joseph”??

    Well, that is a very good question.

    The “Joseph” we think we know (under that or other name) is actually a very talented troller with a great depth of knowledge on matters of halacha (as well as secular matters and current affairs) but also with an occasional flair for sexist and Trumpian style racist tropes and hyperbole. If you take his stuff in context, its not that hard to sort out the substance from the troll designed to elicit outrage. Buried deep in some of his stuff is a really dry sense of humor which doesn’t always come through as intended.

    #1801201

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    Did you guys notice that YWN deleted a whole string of posts in this thread??

    #1801224

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    There is one Jew that I do not love. It is because he is a rasha gamur and (as I’m often reminded on these boards) it is a mitzvah to hate him.

    The Wolf

    #1801253

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Wolf, what is the basis for that judgment?

    #1801257

    Meno
    Participant

    Avrohom avinu davened for anshei S’dom

    #1801527

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Re: Haskala not happening in Sefardi countries, it actually did, in the form of the Alliance. The Alliance was closely linked to the Maskilim, and did lead thousands of Sefardi Jews ever-so-slightly off the correct path.

    #1801528

    Milhouse
    Participant

    Meno, Avrohom only davened for any hypothetical innocent Sedomim, not for the guilty ones.

    #1801545

    Yabia Omer
    Participant

    The Alliance influence wasn’t nearly as problematic as the Maskilim/Reform?

    #1801546

    laughing
    Participant

    I have such mixed feeling about “Orthodox” Jews

    #1801558

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Meno, Avrohom only davened for any hypothetical innocent Sedomim, not for the guilty ones.

    That’s not true. He was asking to save the entire city, not just the righteous people that may have been in it.

    On the other hand, it should be pointed out that you don’t have to love someone to daven for them.

    The Wolf

    #1801559

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Wolf, what is the basis for that judgment?

    I have to have a basis for hating someone?

    The Wolf

    #1801695

    MDG
    Participant

    ” a spectrum of people in Sephardic shuls coexisting peacefully and organically. Among Ashkenazim, we’ve got MO shuls, black aht shuls, Chabad shuls, Yeshivish shuls etc. etc.”

    There is more Ahava in Sephardic shuls. See birkat cohanim. Tov Lev hu yivarech. Also the B’racha of “… levarech et amo yisrael B’AHAVA”

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