Does a BTL help??

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  • #592531
    Yanky123
    Member

    Hi, I’m a bachur in yeshiva and have been looking during last few weeks into different options towards college. I can possibly get a btl from past yeshiva credits. I know there is a lot of opinions if this works or not. I know there are a lot of guys in same parsha contemplating between working towards a real BA (with using yeshiva credits) or settle for a BTL. Please post if you have applied to grad school, which one, for what and what happened. All detailed reply’s will be appreciated. THANX!!!

    #700239
    rebdoniel
    Member

    It depends on what your goals are, what career you want to go into, what school you want to attend, etc. In most cases, I would recommend a Bachelors of Arts and would try to use yeshiva credits towards fulfilling some core requirements. However, a lot of good schools are not giving credit for yeshiva nowadays. It all depends on your particular matzav.

    #700240
    Sacrilege
    Member

    Hi, I’m a girl so I dont have a BTL. However, I know that a lot of guys who go to Law School use a BTL. In order to get accepted to Law School you need a BA and you need to pass the LSATs (obviously the better the mark the better the Law School) the BA really doesnt matter (you can even have a BA from one of those 1 year fly by night programs)The main focus is the scores on the LSATs, so if you are considering Law BTL is more than perfect.

    #700241
    theprof1
    Participant

    I feel like an ignoramus. Here I am a former professor, my daughter just started both BY Seminary and Sara Schenirer School for Special Education to receive a BS with both college and seminary credits, and I don’t have the slightest idea of what a BTL is. And here I thought some Jewish guy wanted to know if he could have a Bacon, Tomato, and Lettuce sandwich. Whew. I do know that my family practices BTL, basic torah living. Actually advanced but oh well.

    #700242

    Definition

    BTL Battle

    BTL Bottle

    BTL Between the Lines

    BTL Buy To Let

    BTL Below The Line (advertising)

    BTL Bubba the Love Sponge

    BTL Biomass-to-Liquids

    BTL Bolsa de Turismo de Lisboa

    BTL Bridge-Tied Load (amplifier)

    BTL Between the Lions (PBS children’s TV show)

    BTL Build-Transfer-Lease

    BTL Bataillon (German: Battalion)

    BTL Bell Telephone Laboratories

    BTL Bilateral Tubal Ligation

    BTL Built-To-Last

    BTL Better-Than-Life

    BTL Backplane Transceiver Logic

    BTL Beyond the Limits

    BTL BACnet Testing Laboratories

    BTL Biomass to Liquid Fuel

    BTL Belize Telemedia Limited

    BTL Blue Trunk Library

    BTL Between the Legs

    BTL Born Too Late (band)

    BTL Bowel Tolerance Level

    BTL Building Tightness Limit (building air exchange)

    BTL Branching Temporal Logic

    BTL Bipolar-Transistor Logic

    BTL Brian Thomas Littrell (singer)

    BTL Basic Termination Liability

    BTL Battle Loss

    BTL British Telecommunications Laboratories

    BTL Birla Technologies Limited

    BTL Batlagundu (parish)

    BTL Big Time Loser

    BTL Baltimore Tank Lines, Inc. (trucking company)

    BTL Bachelor of Talmudic Law

    BTL Billing Term Liability (Sprint)

    BTL Begining TAPR Label

    BTL Bible Translation & Literacy

    #700243
    arc
    Participant

    it always helps to have a BTL. it looks good on the resume and can help for future credits.

    What would be the downside to getting it?

    #700244
    Yanky123
    Member

    Ok, Thanx everyone for responding so far. . . To clarify, i don’t know yet what i want to do so it makes my inquiry a drop more complex. Law, Doctor, etc is out of question. not my type. I’m very business minded, and can see myself running a company, with my leadership skills and sharp business mind. I still cant see myself doing an MBA program, as I’m really not the ultra studious type. Do i have to decide now?? Again please pour in idea’s to this question and previous. . . Thanx a million,

    #700245
    bpt
    Participant

    I think it stands for Bachelors in Talmudic Law, and New to the Scene, I am THRILLED to see your post.

    #700246
    the.nurse
    Member

    mod 80

    looks like you have a lot of time on your hands.. though i must say that the list was pretty amusing.

    just for the record, theprof1, i have no idea what BTL means either

    #700247
    squeak
    Participant

    Bachelor of Talmudic Law

    but by all counts, a BTL is really a BS

    #700248
    Yanky123
    Member

    No downside to getting the btl, its much easier. I was about to start online courses to add to my yeshiva credits for a BA, than realized that maybe the BTL would be enough, which is why i posed the question. If i hear that a btl is useless than I’ll start other courses. . .

    #700249
    theprof1
    Participant

    OK got it. They had the BTL back when I was in yeshiva (ain’t gonna say when that was). Many guys in Baltimore used it to get into Loyola. Sacrilege is very right about using a BTL for law school. They don’t care care as long as you get high LSATs. But New2 it all, grow up first. You want a BLT and then what? No grad school cause you’re such a great business mind that you don’t need an education. You aren’t studious but wow are you ever a leader. Right. Grow up. Quickly. Before the real world hits you smack in the face.

    #700250
    Sacrilege
    Member

    “I’m very business minded, and can see myself running a company, with my leadership skills and sharp business mind. I still cant see myself doing an MBA program”

    I’m really not sure what company would hire you to run their company without an MBA. With todays Job Market so tight you really need any advantage you can get.

    Than again, you can start your own company.

    #700251
    NEEDIDEAS
    Member

    Is a BTL the same as First Rabbinic Degree (FRD)?

    #700252
    squeak
    Participant

    With over 100,000 MBAs handed out every year, it is a degree with diminishing or even questionable value. Unless it’s from a top 4 school.

    Plus, MBAs don’t look so good on grads with no work experience. It is considered meaningful when a working stiff gets the MBA during his/her career.

    #700253
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    BTL stands for BaTul (just kidding)

    personally i got a BTL and i as i see more and more it doesn’t mean as much (a main problem is that yeshivos are accredited under AARTS which is a national acceptance (as opposed to regional which colleges accept)) therefore you have to apply for an exception which, i advise, go to a college that you know will accept it (exception or not)

    #700254
    Yanky123
    Member

    With all due respect to the professor; i disagree with you. Education does not nec go hand in hand with success. I def agree that its imp to have a deg to fall back on and to get a position, but i dont think knowing the intricate details of the vietnam war and lab science on how to disect a frog will put bread on my family’s table. Look at the wealthiest people in the frum community and let me know how many of them have or used their degrees. U’ll be astonished at the results. I have done a lot of research into this. Wishing you all the best. . .

    #700255
    Lawstudent
    Member

    yes I received a BTL from a yeshiva in israel and i am currently on a very generous academic scholarship at a large prestigious law school in manhattan. it stands for Bachelor of Talmudic Law. that being said, unless youre contemplating law, theres limited use for it, however i do know my friend has the same degree and hes in an MBA program. Additionally, as much as i love the fact that i didnt spend needless years in college, similarly placed students in my class have a leg up because they were accumalating business experience for their resume those years while i was not.

    #700256
    Yanky123
    Member

    That post was not at all meant to diminish the importance of a degree, as im not sure if you remember, i was the one that started the blog, trying to figure out the most efficient way to get my degree. I was only saying that some people have the abilitie to do it without the paper, even in which case im pro to get a degree for backup. Now with that aside, mbachur, this is exactly the response i was waiting for. Can you please give me more details to which types of programs worked and which didnt, and to sqeak, all mba programs require you to do field work simultan. . .

    #700257
    Yanky123
    Member

    And to sacril, i agree with you and this is why im pursuing my degree. However like you said, iy”h one day i will start my own company.

    #700258
    emoticon613
    Member

    just s/t funny – i have a slight reversal tendency in reading, so i thought the title said ‘does a BLT help?’ and was thinking, like, help what, exactly. LOL!

    #700259
    Sacrilege
    Member

    Squeak – All graduates are having trouble finding jobs now, with little job creation coupled with job cuts we have a BIG problem. However, I dont think you can say that an MBAs value is questionable. Any and every degree you get makes you more valuable which puts you ahead. There are literally hundreds if not thousands of Lawyers out of jobs, the legal field got hit very hard (its only with great hashgacha that I not only have a job but actually just recently FOUND one) are going to now say a Law Degree has questionable value? We are in a bad economy, G-d willing it will pick up, and when it does those with degrees will not be sorry they have them.

    New2 – Its nice to hear you are so full of ambition but unless Hash-m has pre-determined for you to become the next Reichman, I think its best to go about this in the most “natural” way.

    #700260
    mw13
    Participant

    I was always inder the impression that a BTL helps get you into law school, and that’s about it… but I haven’t looked into it so don’t take my word for it.

    #700261
    Yanky123
    Member

    Sacril, HELLO!! I started this blog as to which is best path in colledge to take!! So we are not arguing at all. With Siyata D’shmaya i am going full force. I also could not agree with you more on your reply to Sqeak. Iy”h, if hashem decides that I should be the CEO, i will def consider taking you in as policy director. Sorry gotta run, i have a conferance with my marketing and developement teams in the city. Professor, please prepare me a btl sandwhich, have to run to the office early in the morning. Meeting online with production firm on taiwanese time 4 am.

    #700262
    ulisis
    Member

    I’ll say it: law degrees from many law schools are of questionable value. In any economy.

    #700263
    Sacrilege
    Member

    New2 – I’ll consider your offer 😉 And good luck, my Father (may he be gebenched) is not a college attendee, and he is B”H the Managing Partner of a successful company, so it can be done, it didnt happen overnight, so keep at it. Much Hatzloch!

    Ulisis – Many? as in 2-5, or 49% of all of them in the U.S.? Please clarify your statement.

    Nowadays, unfortunately for a lot of Law School graduates only the top 2% from Ivy League colleges are being hired.

    #700264
    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    While there are many fly-by-night ways to get a degree, and there is even a book on this called the Bachur’s Guide to College or something similar, please don’t think that hiring managers and admissions officers aren’t aware of this, as well. They very well know the difference between a real degree and other alternatives.

    The better the school, and the more rigorous your education, the better chances you have of success. Of course some people do well without this, but some people also win lotteries.

    Especially in this economy, all fluff is out. You must have skills that make you indispensable and be willing to work hard. All companies are cutting costs and personnel to the bone to raise their bottom line.

    Do your hishtadlus properly, and keep davening.

    #700265
    squeak
    Participant

    They very well know the difference between a real degree and other alternatives.

    I find that is generally the case, in the NYC area and even in large companies outside of NY Metro. But in other regions or smaller companies, they often have never heard of these shortcuts and will treat it the same as any other college they never heard of.

    For someone starting in such an area, the pseudo-degree may be the stepping stone into such a company, and the experience there can be the stepping-stone into ANY company.

    #700266
    oomis
    Participant

    I thought that sandwich was assur… OH – B T L, NOT B L T! Whoops! ( I just read all the posts before sending this, and I see a few people picked up on the same dyslexic thing as I did).

    #700267
    squeak
    Participant

    Sacrilege-

    Obviously, more than 100,000 people per year disagree with my assessment or they would not bother putting in the work it takes to earn the MBA.

    With that in mind, I don’t think the addition of one or two people here disagreeing with me is going to change my perspective. Which is the other side of the desk.

    #700268
    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Bagel, Tuna & Lettuce?

    Sure it can help.

    You make a Brocha on it.

    You can use it to give you strength to do Avodas Hashem.

    #700269
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    I’m with Squeak – so many people I work with have their MBA (and from NYU) that its no longer a big deal.

    To be fair to the BTL getters – they learn Talmud on a very high level (lhavdil if you were in school for Russian literature, their 400 level courses in Talmud are probably higher or at least as high as Russian LIterature).

    #700270

    Hard work is more important that any degree. But the degree helps you get a foot in the door.

    #700271
    Yanky123
    Member

    Pashuter Yid, that is an interesting point you bring up. Do you or anyone have case in point to back that up?? Did anyone out there get a BA from either excelsior or chater oaks and have good or bad experience either getting into a grad program or get into or declined a position??

    #700272
    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    New2, I don’t have first hand knowledge of people with those degrees, but whenever I check my email I see ads for Univ. of Phoenix online degrees. Now, if I see those ads, you can be sure that people doing the hiring and making the admissions decisions also see the ads.

    I have recently heard of programs where some colleges come down to a yeshiva for 3 Sundays of all-day coursework, and credit is given for a full semester. All these things make me nauseous. The one good thing I saw in that Bachur’s Guide to College book, which someone gave me as a joke, is in the introduction. It says, Do not show to your parents.

    #700273
    Yanky123
    Member

    Very pashuter yid; I don’t think I would hire you for Development even if you held a degree from Wharton Business School. Oh, they don’t advertise so much, so they prob don’t hold up to your standards anyway. (It is the nation’s top Business School) . Kidding around, but seriously; how do you evaluate a college based on who has a good marketing team? Besides, U of Pheo charges triple than any other undergrad school which is why they have to advertise so much!! Second, I was so so so so confused about the whole parsha until I sat down and read The Bachur college book. It was extremely informative. It maps out all programs in great detail. I highly highly recommend it to anyone that is not a pashiter yid, and is in this parsha. I think you’ll also gain a lot, and learn not to rate a college on thier advertising!

    Besides, basically he explains how to use your thinking, and analytical experience gained in yeshiva towards your degree. There is a reason that colleges acknowledge yeshiva credits. You cannot compare a lawyer with years of toiling over sugyos etc, with a law degree, to one that spent his high school doing drugs, hanging out etc. . .

    #700274
    rebdoniel
    Member

    I do not believe it does either limud hatorah or other study any justice to reduce both to these standards. Learning Torah is not somethign that can be reduced to an academic degree. At the same time, you should not be receiving credit for secular areas you do not have breadth and eepth in.

    #700275
    artchill
    Participant

    new2thescene:

    Unless there is a PHD in your family, it’s not advisable to waste your time with a BTL!!!

    Legitimate graduate schools look at BTL’s as a great money maker. They will simply make you take 30 credits of prerequisites before you can start the graduate program. Unless the BTL includes basic general studies college coursework, you will be forced to pay for real college anyways. Get a real degree instead.

    #700276
    Pashuteh Yid
    Member

    New2, I think you totally misunderstood my previous post, even 180 degrees. I was not saying that Univ. of Phoenix is a great school because they advertise. I was saying the exact opposite. That if one thinks he can get some online degree and people won’t know the difference, in truth, everybody else knows about online degrees, too, as they see the same ads.

    Now the second point is that you mention Wharton as being the top B-school, but come on, you forgot about Sloan, which is MIT’s business school. As they say in MIT, Harvard is the playground down the block.

    Third, while it is true that gemara develops the yiddishe kup, but one must also develop skills in secular studies to be able to communicate with the secular world. One does not go around convincing others of his point by waving his thumb in the courtroom or the law firm, as one does in Yeshiva. One must learn to write focused and well-reasoned and well-sourced briefs and documents. This is a skill which many yeshiva bochurim lack, as their English and writing is atrocious. And if you want to go into a scientific or technical field, al achas kamah vkamah that you will need to learn real material in real courses.

    #700277
    QuestionForYou
    Participant

    Which colleges and/or Yeshivas in the USA offer BTL’s?

    #700278

    Sacrilege – as a recent graduate from a good law school, and as a volunteer in my school’s admissions department for six months, I can tell you first hand that law schools are decreasing the amount of BTL students they accept. NYU, Brookyln Law, Columbia, Fordham Law Schools have all eliminated BTL students or only accept a handful if the LSAT score is above average. The theory is that the law schools want to diversify the student body (there are hundreds of BTL applications each year) and many [not all]BTL student lack english reading and writing skills. While they may have the brains from learning in yeshiva, they lack the formal secular education required for success in law school and the legal profession. In my law school class, one student would frequently use “yeshivish” or yiddish words to the professor. Need i say more?

    #700279
    Sacrilege
    Member

    asking – LOL. I just know that a lot of guys go to Law School on a BTL. I am a girl so this wasnt even an issue for me.

    I have actually heard that Columbia is now being more selective, as they have have all ways been the #1 destination for the smarter Yeshiva crowd. It seems as if Georgetown has become the new Columbia in that regard.

    #700280
    oomis
    Participant

    BTL is worth very little nowadays (rightly so). The boys may be learned enough to get smicha, possibly (and let them, if they deserve it), but they often have very poor communication and language arts skills, because they are plain and poshut UNEDUCATED in the secular world. If they want a degree that comes from the secular world, they need to do their secular hishtadlus.

    I know guys who went to Yeshivah in E”Y for five years to get the BTL, specifically so they could bypass college and go straight into law school. Only one of all of them was accepted, and I am certain it is because his parents are both highly educated and made sure he got a great high school education.

    #700281
    Yanky123
    Member

    I agree with you that going to grad school without a basic command of the english language is atrocious. I like to think I have a decent holding, but would appreciate greatly if the yeshiva’s would have offered courses on the side, in this area. Btw, any college grad’s that read my other posts in this blog, how is my english?

    #700282
    rebdoniel
    Member

    To be successful at the study of law, you need to have a background understanding of the foundations of Western civilization and government, philosophy, etc. (beyond the Aseres HaDibros). While I believe Gemara study is well-suited to this, as is the study of halacha, there needs to also be an understanding of the actual content involved that serves as a precursor to the study to law.

    #700283
    Sacrilege
    Member

    reb d – Whatever you need to be a successful Lawyer you learn in Law School. They re-wire the way you think and attack a problem. It doesnt matter what kind of BA you have, you can have it in Art/Music/Religion it doesnt matter.

    #700284
    Yanky123
    Member

    Btw, i would like to thank all those that have responded. Thanks to your suggestions, I decided to go further than a btl and I am deciding now on a BA program to start.

    #700285
    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    taken from wikianswers website (I’m actually trying to use my BTL to get into a masters program)

    Without going into the actually history of the two accrediting agencies, there are a few issues that should concern individuals when choosing between regionally and nationally accredited colleges and universities.

    For one, the regional accreditation standards are higher than that of the national accreditation agency. Thus, the regional accreditation is preferred by colleges and universities who wish to be recognized as institutions that possess excellence within higher education.

    Second is the issue of transferability of credits. Nationally accredited institutions typically accept credits from regionally accredited colleges and universities, where regionally accredited colleges and universities will not accept credits from nationally accredited institution. This means if you have a coursework and/or a degree from a nationally accredited institution, it would be like starting all over again should you decide to transfer to a regionally accredited school (which most all recognized colleges and universities are). This should also be a great concern should you plan on pursuing advance degrees (master’s, doctorate) at a later date. The degree from a nationally accredited school would not be recognized.

    Third, employers who are aware of the difference in regional and national accreditations may not recognize your education that was completed at a nationally accredited institution

    heres the website

    http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_difference_between_nationally_and_regionally_accredited_schools

    #700286
    yeshivaguy1
    Participant

    i am about to start classes in touro israel. I am wondering if anyone knows about how accepted a touro degree is. I am potentially giving up a full scholarship to a pretty prestegious university by going to touro, because i want to stay in yeshiva in israel, and i just want to make sure a touro degree is worth something.

    Touro israel is another idea for bochurim you can get up to 59 credits towards an american touro degree by taking night classes there. touro also recognizes up to 48 yeshiva credits so a bachur can come back to america and be almost finished his degree.

    #700287
    artchill
    Participant

    new2thescene: Congratulations, smart move

    yeshivaguy1:

    Touro degrees are accepted. They took a ding for the grade scandal a few years ago, but now things are okay. Be VERY careful with reading any financial paperwork they shtup at you.

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