Dose of reality: Kids kicked out of school

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Controversial Topics Dose of reality: Kids kicked out of school

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 150 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #592927

    WIY
    Member

    Lately there has been a lot of talk and articles regarding throwing kids out of Yeshivos/Bais Yakovs.

    My opinion is, a typical school is not made for kids in all situations. Its made for the type of kid the school is geared towards be it Yeshivish, Chasidish with their own twist on what that means. We all know that every school is different.

    However all regular schools are only prepared for a kid that is functioning normally.

    If a kid is “bumming out” and is clearly heading in a bad direction, I feel any responsible school must take action. Is a school supposed to sacrifice the other kids so that this kid shouldnt be kicked out?

    Now we all know there can be a # of reasons why kid will start to bum out ranging from learning disabilities to broken homes to abuse in the home….

    We cant expect schools to retain children that are a negative influence on other children. Dont tell me they are kicked out because the school cares about their name. Bottom line a bad kid brings down his friends. He isnt an island unto himself. I had bad kids in my class who got kicked out. They were very negative influences on some guys. We had a kid that introduced some guys to non Jewish music, pornography and other such things. Once a kid is bad theres no end to how low he will fall and he will bring everyone around him down with him.

    The school isnt equipped with a top rate psychologist or CSW that can deal with such a kid and frankly no school can afford one. Therefore the school has no choice but to kick the kid out. They cant risk destroying a class or even one other kid to keep the kid in the school.

    Personally, I think the warning signs in a kid show up at very young ages and the parents are the ones that often choose to ignore it. Many times a parent will be informed by the school that somethings going on with the kid but parents act like they are deaf and blind. Call it arrogance or whatever term is appropriate but many parents cant accept that there is something wrong with their child until it gets to the point where theres no denying it.

    In most cases if a kid gets kicked out I think it is because the house let it get to the point where the kid is a mess. The school is not obligated to fix the mess that the parents created. They can do their best, hire great Rabbeim, but at the end of the day a Rebbi will never be a Psychologist and can only try his hardest with the kids. There are some kids that need therapy. Theres nothing the school can or is obligated to do.

    So what is the answer? What should we as a community do to remedy the problem? What needs to be implemented?

    #708908

    Josh31
    Participant

    Sometimes kids get kicked out because they could not keep up with the recent rapid shift to the right and greater insularity.

    #708909

    abcd2
    Participant

    ddear well informed yid. I am sorry but you are wrong. “In most cases if a kid gets kicked out I think it is because the house let it get to the point where the kid is a mess.”

    How many kids with issues come from the finest of homes and backgrounds? How many kids have parents that are willing to try any suggestion? How mabny kids rebel without cause?

    The answer: Tons!

    Hasehm should give yiddishe nachas to all ofklal Yisroel

    #708910

    not an answer, but i’d like to point out that sometimes the parent IS the problem, not that s/he is ignoring it. if the parent is abusive, s/he is not going to be the one to put the child in therapy…

    #708911

    WIY
    Member

    abcd2

    “Try any suggestion” but not therapy. “My kid doesn’t need a therapist!”

    Besides that point. A child could come from a great family but it doesn’t mean he or she got the proper attention. When you have 6,7 or more kids many close in age and 2 working parents its hard to give them all attention or the proper attention as each kid is different. Let’s face it, its a miracle if only one kid has issues!

    #708912

    lesschumras
    Participant

    WellinormedYid,

    I notice you place no responsibility with the school. Inthe yeshiva high school that I attended, the students with the weakest gemorra skills were assigned to “garbage’ ( that was how these shiurim were known as ) and assigned rebbes with the poorest teaching skills. Small wonder that these kids never developed the needed skills, got turned off and the majority went off the derech by the time we graduated. I was one of the lucky few who managed to hang on and return. To the Moderator, the school was the old BTA in Brooklyn.

    #708913

    wellinformedyid- I totally agree- we are driving ourselves into a deep dark hole. We expect the wife to work (or she needs to), the husband, have a million kids, many times no close family nearby, involved in tons of chesed, always look happy and put together. Unfortunately, we are seeing the korbonos of our unrealistic lifestyle…

    #708914

    minyan gal
    Member

    WIY – I disagree with you. The school carries a great deal of responsibility. They happily accept your child and the tuition you pay – well, the responsibility does not end there. They would love it if each child were perfect and fit into the imaginary mold they have. That is not reality. Ask yourself what would happen in a non-religious school – public or private. Most of those schools do not throw out the baby with the bath water. It must a combined effort of both the school and the family to try to remedy what ails the child.

    #708915

    Moq
    Member

    Minyan-

    True, but the school has a thousand kids, and barely enough budget to cover the underpaid teacher to teach a class of thirty children. And the teacher doesn’t make enough for him/her to have specialized degrees or training, nevermind resource rooms & therapist. As long as we have luxury pesach vacations before we have well equipped, well paid schools, we are going to pay for it in other ways then money. If need schools on the level, we need to pay for it.

    If we give our schools zero budget, and kvetch and call them names when they want more (see bais yakov of boro park thread) – what on earth are they to do? Primary responsibility is on the parents, to get tutors, therapists, or switch on their own. Schools are barely keeping their heads above water with the “standard” children.

    RamatEshkolian-

    Right; we need to be able to admit we are human. That is indeed the first step. America is not helping; everyone needs dual income. A world where the wife is a full time psycologist/tutor/nurse/mommy to her children is a good world, and makes happier children. Not always is it possible, but until your youngest is off to school, it’s a wonderful thing to be able to be home – and probably worth moving to – God Forbid! – out of town to make happen.

    #708916

    mw13
    Participant

    WellInformedYid:

    Well said. A school has an obligation to throw out a kid who is a negative influence on everybody else. Many of the kids who go off the derech do so because of bad friends – if we could stop those bad friends from being in our children’s schools, we would be one step ahead of the game.

    abcd2:

    “ddear well informed yid. I am sorry but you are wrong. “In most cases if a kid gets kicked out I think it is because the house let it get to the point where the kid is a mess.”

    How many kids with issues come from the finest of homes and backgrounds? How many kids have parents that are willing to try any suggestion? How mabny kids rebel without cause?

    The answer: Tons!”

    True, the parents are not necessarily at fault for having an off the derech kid (after all, Avrahom and Yitzchok both had sons who didn’t quite follow their derech…). However, a school has an obligation to throw out a kid who is having a negative influence on the other students, no matter why that is the case.

    miyan gal:

    “They would love it if each child were perfect and fit into the imaginary mold they have.”

    As WIY explained, each school is usually created to serve certain types of people. If you are not the type that the school is looking for, you can’t blame them for not wanting to accept you. It doesn’t mean that they have anything against you or your type, just that you’re not what they’re looking for.

    #708917

    cantoresq
    Member

    WIY, I’m going out on a limb here, but do you have children? I can’t imagine any father who beheld his son at his bris, who ever invested an ounce of effort into building his daughter’s self esteem, who wvwe worried one sleepless night over his children could ever be so cavalier about such an issue. Frow up, have some kids of your own, love them, and then let’s talk.

    #708918

    aries2756
    Participant

    WIY, since you are not married yet and you are not a parent yet, you are not INFORMED enough to have such an opinion!!!

    Schools need to take more responsibility and get equipped to handle ALL types of students and train mechanchim to catch kids before they get to the point of no return, especially when there are issues in the home. I have worked with MANY at-risk kids and have never met a “bad” kid yet. I have met many kids with “bad” problems and issues, but that’s it. As a friend of mine used to say “G-d don’t make no junk!”

    So let’s get that straight from the start and understand that Home and School is a partnership and each has a combined responsibility when it comes to children. When YOU will be the parent, maybe then YOU will understand that a little better. Mechanchem has as much of a responsibility in raising a child as do the parents. They have as much influence if not more than do parents, and they spend more time with the children and set more rules. They charge parents an arm and a leg for the privilege of taking their child to begin with and parents barely have the time these days to spend any quality time with their own children as they scramble to pay the bills.

    And understand this, it was the parents who set up this system, it was the schools who did it!

    #708919

    bymeidel
    Member

    my parsha teacher taught us something that relates to this topic regarding yaakov and eisav. theres a mashal to parents who have 2 perfect babies who eat everything parents give them and dont have any allergies- real angels. their third child however is not so perfect, he is a picky eater, spits out all his food and has a lot of allergies. The parents arent going to say to their baby,”this is how we eat in our family!”, they are going to try their best to get their child to eat properly, whether it be going to an alergist, or doing airplane to get the child to eat.

    The time comes for the first 2 children to go to school and they are doing great, they play nicely, they behave and the teacher tells the parents how good they are. when the 3rd child goes to the same school he has a very hard time, he is misbehaving, it takes longer for him to learn the aleph bais etc. Just like the parents didnt tell their baby, “this is how we eat in our family!” they shouldnt say to their child, “In our family everyone does well in this school!” They have to realize that all their children are different and have different needs. Just b/c something worked for child 1 and 2 that doesnt mean it will work for child 3.

    This relates to yaakov and eisav who were both brought up in the same home by the same parents, yet turned out so different. How is this possible? Rav Hirsch explains that yitzchak and rivka treated yaakov and eisav the same until they were 13 and failed to realize eisav unique talents that needed to be developed in the proper way. Had they realized eisav’s talents and treated him differently b/c of them he probably would not have become a rasha.

    So for those of you who say, “How many kids with issues come from the finest of homes and backgrounds?” you have to consider that maybe the parents didnt recognize their child’s individual means and assumed that the school (or whatver it is) that worked for their other children will work for this one. parents have to realize that their children are not clones and have different needs.

    #708920

    anon for this
    Participant

    Moq,

    Why do you say that it’s financially easier for a mother to stay at home out-of-town than in town?

    #708922

    Moq
    Member

    Anon – cleveland/detroit/baltimore. Price of home – 200k-300k. Flatbush – 700k. Drop the mortgage and mommy stays home.

    Shlomo Zalman – drop two Rebbeim (40k + 40k = 80k). Who exactly is going to teach the other sixty kids?

    #708923

    Ofcourse
    Member

    abcd2, YOU ARE SO RIGHT!

    “How many kids with issues come from the finest of homes and backgrounds? How many kids have parents that are willing to try any suggestion? How mabny kids rebel without cause?

    The answer: Tons!”

    Absolutely!!! Truly brilliant people often say I don’t know. Their confidence level allows it. It’s the arrogant among us who point a finger of blame and have all the answers, until the tragedy hits them personally.

    I sometimes wonder about the Possuk- Hafoch ba v’Hafoch ba D’Kula ba. Many of the biggest Gedolim are clueless on this topic, and when asked will suggest use of psychologists, who are often clueless themselves. This is one topic that has most people stymied. Despite the existence of brilliant scientists in all areas, cures for many maladies are very much unknown and presently just guesswork. Possibly just one G’Zera of our Dor, among other Crises, that we arent meant to figure out.

    #708924

    WIY
    Member

    Aries,

    Yes home and school is a partnership yet most parents don’t see it that way. They think they are off the hook and its all up to the school.

    Let’s get real, yeshivos are broke, parents are cheap on tuition and Rabbeim make about $30,000 a year and have on average 25-30 students.

    You expect more from the school? When parents start paying tuition IN FULL then maybe we can have dialogue about what schools can do differently.

    Training Mechanchim costs BIG BUCKS they need to know child psychology which also means significant time spent on educating these mechanchim. Mechanchim should be better trained and also better paid. What we ask of our Rabbeim and teachers isn’t fair. You want them to be able to handle all types of kids and get paid $30,000 a year?! Pay him $90,000 and supply him with an education/training. Then we can talk! Until people put their money for their kids tuition before all else, we won’t see any changes.

    Oh and for the record, if a kid sees that his tuition isn’t that important to his parents what message does that show?

    #708925

    msseeker
    Member

    I can’t imagine any father who beheld his son at his bris, who ever invested an ounce of effort into building his daughter’s self esteem, who worried one sleepless night over his children could ever be so cavalier about… exposing his kids to OTD friends.

    #708926

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    My husband told me this true story that happened in Bnei Brok. A few principals of a yeshiva came to Rabbi Schach and asked his advice…they wanted to kick out a child from their yeshiva. Rav Schach asked them if they knew the boy and his background and they didn’t know…just that he was acting up and not behaving in yeshiva. ROTZCHIM! MURDERERS! said Rav Schach, you are ready to kick out a child without a clue why he is behaving this way? The principals looked into the matter and found out that the boy’s parents were getting a divorce. and they kept the boy in their school.

    If a school kicks out a kid from school, they are giving him a death sentence. No school will want to touch him and he will most probably become off the derech.

    If a school feels they are unable to handle a particular child, they should try their best to find a school that does accept him and is willing to give him the extra attention he needs.

    #708927

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Teachers in frum schools aren’t often trained to handle challenging kids. They usually make situations that are dealable worse.

    #708928

    aries2756
    Participant

    mw13, a school has an obligation to work with each child they accept and for each child they take schar limud for! Furthermore a school has an obligation to be accountable and responsible for each child under their guidance and care. THAT means that THEY have them during most of their waking hours and i many cases have them more hours than the parents do. THEY are supposed to be able to watch out for signs and symptoms of abuse, neglect and general malaise. They are supposed to notice if children are fairing well or not. AND if parents are not doing what is necessary to help their own children that doesn’t mean that the school washes their hands of them, that means that for those children the school takes on the larger responsibility for them because the parents are NOT for whatever reason that is. The school might have to call in child protective services, the school might have to take the parents to a beis din, or the school might have to get a court order to make sure the child is well taken care of, but the school should NOT turn a blind eye and let the child fend for themselves by throwing them out onto the streets.

    If you were in denial that your child had a problem should the school wash their hands of your child or should they be the child’s advocate until YOU came to terms with reality? Should they assign the proper teacher, Rebbe, mechanech to the child who could understand him better and work with him to bring out his potential or should they just ignore him and let the chips fall where they may?

    #708929

    Moq
    Member

    SJS – true. now what? We need 60k salaries to make it kday from them to get masters, etc. And a few hundred in the school to make class size smaller and add guidance counselors and the like. Until then, it’s gonna be rough. The best educated, talented young frum people…go to the public schools system, for a starting salary of 55k + full benefits and constant raises. Versus 40k if you are lucky, with zero benefits, and maybe if your lucky in ten years you’ll make 45k. and in the public school system, by them you’ll be up to 65k, and the’ll pay you to get a masters.

    The worlds best programmers…don’t work for the NSA. They work for video game companies.

    #708930

    anon for this
    Participant

    Moq,

    I lived in a small out-of-town community in the central US. Despite the fact that homes were much cheaper than in Flatbush, I couldn’t afford to stay at home because of tuition. Most parents in the school were klai kodesh (rebbeim or kollel members), and paid little to no tuition. Since my husband was in school, we didn’t count as klai kodesh and were expected to pay full tuition (which was quite high, at least 75% greater than the actual cost per student, in order to subsidize the klai kodesh).

    Unlike the klai kodesh families, we could not afford cleaning help, new clothes (we got hand-me-downs from relatives) or vacations, since we paid full tuition. When I lost my job while pregnant and could not find another, I asked for a tuition break. The executive director of the school berated me for my inability to find another job and threatened to kick my children out of school, claiming that schools in cities such as Baltimore never provide tuition breaks when parents lose jobs (I found out later that this is not true). Although he didn’t kick my kids out, my daughter was bullied by other students and we were ostracized in the community.

    Not long after we moved to a wonderful, warm NJ community where my husband found a good job and we found good schools there for our children. Recently our personal and financial situation changed, and currently we are barely able to pay tuition. My children’s schools have been amazingly warm and supportive, and are responsive to my children’s needs. They recognize that my situation precludes me from working outside the home, and have not pressured me to find work in order to pay tuition.

    Living out-of-town doesn’t mean mothers can stay home with their kids. Often out-of-town school have a smaller parent base, along with a higher persenctage of non-paying students, so tuitions can be higher than at in-town schools.

    #708931

    I agree with “cantoresq”.

    No rebbe or menahel should consider this type of step without thinking hard about if they’d consider this a fair way of dealing with their own child.

    No yeshiva or bais yakov should consider taking such a drastic step unless they have exhaustively considered any, every, and all possible alternatives.

    If parents have to be asked to remove their child from a school it should be done in the most bekovadik, private way possible, and the school should also continue to be involved in helping the parents place the child elsewhere.

    #708932

    minyan gal
    Member

    “Teachers in frum schools aren’t often trained to handle challenging kids. They usually make situations that are dealable worse.”

    That is why all teachers (and Rabbonim) should be qualified teachers. Even if the school has no money for special ed teachers, a qualified teacher is trained to pick up these problems and together with the parents, possibly work out a solution.

    Also, much as it will pain some parents, occasionally there is a child who is not cut out for a yeshivah or any day school. Use the same tuition money to get the best quality education that you can for this child – even they must learn their yidishkeit at home. As bymeidel said even all children in one family cannot do the same work. If one child is unable to cope with yeshivah life, then send them elsewhere.

    #708933

    Moq
    Member

    Anon – I stand corrected.

    Minyan – I was actually thinking of euthanasia instead; much cheaper then yeshiva and saves make money for the other children.

    #708934

    aries2756
    Participant

    Lets get this straight, it is the schools that created the system that is currently collapsing upon itself. It is the system who told the girls to marry only kollel boys and it is the system who told the boys to stay in kollel and not go to work. WHO DID THEY THINK WILL PAY TUITIONS IN THE FUTURE????? This is the reality of the situation they themselves created. Stop blaming parents for not being able to pay tuition when THEY themselves told them not to work! Stop blaming parents for not wanting to pay for other people’s kids. Stop blaming parents for not wanting to pay for unqualified personnel! Thats just for starters.

    Now we are going to keep going round and round with this argument as we do on each thread. What came first the chicken or the egg. It can’t be fixed because the yeshiva system is not going to admit they are wrong and yet the schools keep closing because of lack of funding. But where is there funding supposed to come from? People are fed up with the schools and the system they are running. They no longer wish to support it. Can you hear the voice of the people loud and clear? You created the problem and we are not going to help you continue!

    In all honesty, if you keep telling yungerleit that it is not their responsibility to go to work and make a parnasah how do you expect them to pay tuition? How are the Rebbeim supposed to get paid? Which mitzvah is more important? Unless you have a Yissacher/Zevulun contract how are you supposed to handle this?

    So now it boils down to the responsibility of the schools to the kids. Do they need to hire qualified mechanchim? Do they need to work with the kids that have issues? Do they need to train their staff? YES, YES, YES, YES!

    You can’t use the lack of funds or anything else as an excuse because the schools themselves have set themselves up for failure. It is the system that failed not the students so don’t blame the kids and don’t make excuses for yourselves. YOU chose to promote learning over being responsible husbands and parents. YOU chose to kick children out as examples. YOU chose unbendable rules. YOU chose to hire anyone who needed parnasah rather than qualified individuals who can actually connect with their students. YOU choose to ignore complaints, YOU choose to ignore signs of abuse or neglect. YOU choose to ignore signs of issues and problems and pass the buck. YOU choose to look for excuses to stand behind and wash your hands of the problem.

    BUT if a child does well, sparkles and shines, YOU take ALL the credit. The parents had nothing to do with it.

    #708935

    mw13
    Participant

    aries2756:

    First of all, I’m not quite sure why your post was directed to me, seeing as I can’t figure out how it would respond to anything I said.

    Second, you seem to be expecting, if not demanding, an incredible amount from the school system. Remember, the teachers/principals are often overworked, underpaid, and only human. You may be expecting too much from them.

    ICOT:

    “No rebbe or menahel should consider this type of step without thinking hard about if they’d consider this a fair way of dealing with their own child.”

    True. But on the flip side, no Rebbi or Menahel should consider accepting a student without first thinking long and hard whether they’d want him/her to be an influence their own child.

    “If parents have to be asked to remove their child from a school it should be done in the most bekovadik, private way possible, and the school should also continue to be involved in helping the parents place the child elsewhere.”

    Couldn’t agree more.

    #708936

    cantoresq
    Member

    I can’t imagine any father who beheld his son at his bris, who ever invested an ounce of effort into building his daughter’s self esteem, who worried one sleepless night over his children could ever be so cavalier about… exposing his kids to OTD friends.

    __________________________________________________________________

    You’re mixing issues. Who my children socialize with is not the same as who should not be kicked out of a school. Moreover, I’m getting a sense that the “velt” is very quick to label someone as OTD, when in fact the child just not fill every nook and crany of the “mold.”

    #708937

    aries2756
    Participant

    True. But on the flip side, no Rebbi or Menahel should consider accepting a student without first thinking long and hard whether they’d want him/her to be an influence their own child.

    NOT TRUE, when they are performing their JOB they have an obligation to the community and that is ALL parents, and ALL students and their personal feelings don’t come into play.

    #708938

    Moq
    Member

    aries –

    we are the system. Who is this mysterious system? So let these parents start another school. But you can’t sent your child to a school, and demand it have resources that it doesn’t have.

    40% of children in a normal school are on partial scholarship, and I’m talking average. That’s because of Kollel? I think that’s a misconception. And Kollel wasn’t made by the elementary school system.

    If anything, it starts in high school

    And tuition problems abound in many communities with no kollelim. While certainly Kollel is not an excuse for to shirk tuition, chinuch is ( do we want them to work for us or not? it’s like any other benefit…).

    #708939

    mw13
    Participant

    aries2756:

    “when they are performing their JOB they have an obligation to the community”

    When the Mechanchim are performing their job they have an obligation to their current students, first and foremost. And they cannot and should not accept a student that will negatively affect the others.

    Moq – Well said.

    #708940

    Ofcourse
    Member

    What does money have to do with kids getting thrown out of school? I havent heard of any therapists/social workers who bring about noticable changes in either children or adults, from anyone who has used them. HOGWASH! In previous years, when we had devoted, caring Rabbonim, who were willing to give of their time for no money, then we solved problems. Therapy is a business. High vocabulary, lots of hot air and a bill for 175 an hour, thats what therapists offer, nothing more!

    #708941

    kapusta
    Participant

    mw13:

    True. But on the flip side, no Rebbi or Menahel should consider accepting a student without first thinking long and hard whether they’d want him/her to be an influence their own child.

    Disagree. I’ve met plenty of people who are not perfect. Does this make them bad people? Absolutely not. They are people who have different things that need fixing. I think this attitude of not having a middle ground, where a kid is either top or bottom, is a big influence on the whole OTD thing.

    ~~~

    The school has a responsibility. If the kids not to your liking, just send him back to the store and ask for another one?! Does the school have any loyalty to the parents who have been in their school for several years (and maybe paying full tuition)?! I heard from a certain (well known) mechanech who, before kicking a child out, sits down with the rebbeim until they find something good about the child to make sure its not the result of just being on everyones bad side. I’m not sure his thinking is so off.

    On a separate note, when someone accepts a job as a rebbe in a school, he knows exactly what hes getting himself into. No one walks in with blinders and thinks hes getting a free ride. Teaching is not about reading material off a page of notes. Teaching is a talent. If you are not teacher material and you walk in knowing that, well good luck to you. Its a recipe for disaster.

    WIY, are you a rebbe by any chance? (or closely related to one?)

    *kapusta*

    #708942

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    If yeshivas are turning kids off from frumkeit, are they still worth it?

    Its a hard balance – people don’t prioritize money for tuition. People don’t think about careers to go into to be able to afford their children’s tuition. Then we have to pay teachers low salaries.

    I had a teacher in 8th grade that really screwed me up. She stressed 100% the wrong things in life (like it’s assur to wear skirts down to you ankles) and constantly contradicted many of our Rabbonim. It took me 4 years at a good high school to really straighten me out.

    She’s still teaching :-/

    I was lucky because I recovered.

    #708943

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Good points everyone. To add, I have a Kabbala that one of the “causes” of the OTD problem is parents not paying full tuition (for whatever that means, and however He makes cheshbonos up there).

    SJS:

    So send to a school where the Rabbaim and teachers do care about the children. They do exist, and if you have to pay more, aren’t your children worth it?

    To th OP (WIY): To remove a child from a school is equal to telling them they no longer have to keep Torah U’Mitzvos, and it is on the Cheshbon of the one who removes the child. It may be required (just like you must kill a Rodef), but does anyone want that on their cheshbon?

    #708944

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    GAW, its not always so simple and you know that 🙂

    There is tremendous social pressure and financial pressure. Many schools don’t allow siblings to stay if one kid is pulled out (unless of course you are rich). Ideally, sure.

    #708945

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    SJS:

    Of course not. But that gets back to our “agreement” that paying full tuition is one of the most critical things a parent can do for his/her child’s chinuch.

    And as far as social pressure….B”H I don’t live in Teaneck (200KChump?)! 🙂

    #708946

    SJSinNYC
    Member

    GAW, I’m immune to social pressure and live in Teaneck 🙂 I don’t earn $200,000 either LOL.

    #708947

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I’m immune to social pressure and live in Teaneck

    I know. It just seems to be the poster child of societal pressure.

    #708948

    WIY
    Member

    GAW

    To leave the bad kid in the school and he brings down other boys is a lot worse. I agree that kicking a kid out isn’t so simple. It has to be carefully thought out. Additionally, no yeshiva/school should just kick a kid out to the streets. That’s a recipe for disaster right there. The Menahel must find a suitable yeshivah first that is willing to accept the kid and work with him.

    #708949

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Point 2: To leave the bad kid in the school and he brings down other boys is a lot worse.

    Point 1:My opinion is, a typical school is not made for kids in all situations. Its made for the type of kid the school is geared towards be it Yeshivish, Chasidish with their own twist on what that means. We all know that every school is different.

    However all regular schools are only prepared for a kid that is functioning normally.

    If a kid is “bumming out” and is clearly heading in a bad direction, I feel any responsible school must take action. Is a school supposed to sacrifice the other kids so that this kid shouldnt be kicked out?

    OK, which one is it?

    #708950

    Sorry but my daughter was tossed out the semester before she graduated because she was seen with a guy, even though the guy was her brother. We were told, ‘we’ve been waiting for this for four years’. She managed to take the regents but not finish her Jewish studies. She wasn’t allowed to graduate with her friends and was denied a yearbook. This is not the way to mentor children, this is the way they crush their self esteem and turn them away from Torah values and Yiddishkeit.

    #708951

    myfriend
    Member

    YM: Was the situation as simply as you put it, or was there more to it?

    #708952

    WIY
    Member

    GAW

    I believe a bad kid needs to be sent out but not to the streets, he should be transferred to a more accomodating yeshiva. These days there are many yeshivos that have opened for kids who need a “lighter” schedule and free-er atmosphere.

    Myfriend

    There is always more to it. I know of these “stories” mothers don’t have a clue what their daughters are up to or how bad they are capable of becoming. Same with their sons and it applies to fathers too. The school knows the kid better than the parent in 99.% of cases.

    #708953

    Moq
    Member

    anon- why so much anger at the kley kodesh? Frankly, why Rebbeim make less then a garbage man? Tuition breaks are part of their benefits. Why must the people who teach our kids make absolutely nothing – chas v’challiah, make more then one of us?

    Kollel? How many kollel guys do you have in OOT? Again, it’s a community thing; the community brings them, offers them high salaries and breaks to build up the community. Again it’s payment. If between their salaries, wives salaries & tuition breaks they can afford something you can’t is that so horrible? Why is that wrong?

    Aries- again, communities without kollel don’t have fiscal problems? No no no.

    Again, we are the schools. We need to pay them. That’s what it boils down to. If we feel we can do better – then let’s go do it, or finance it. Why is it THEM? (As always, with real respect!)

    Chose to kick kids out due to unbendable rules?

    Is that really the case all the time?

    Hire anyone? Anyone who will take the measly salaries we pay.

    We are ultimately responsible for our own children. Nekudah. And part of that, is working with the school. The attitude of “the schools messed up my kid” – doesn’t help our kids. Then help the schools. Finance them. Offer resources.

    Do you think any principal will listen to an indictment of everything he stands for?

    They are always well meaning. They work for US 24/7, for our kids, when they could make much more money elsewhere. Let’s show respect, or do the job ourselves. Of course we should give feedback. But aren’t we passing the buck to them?

    Will this attitude help our schools – our kids? Will a community wide – our schools stink – how exactly will that help our kids?

    OfCourse – Hold it – when people were willing to work for no money – it’s their responbility?? Are you kidding me? They have to eat, like everyone else.

    And I personally have seen dozens of children and adults helped by competent professionals.

    Kapusta – there is minhag, that menhalim fast the day they have to expell a child.

    SJS – and if we paid more, she would have been experienced by a young , educated, talented teacher. Instead, that teacher went to the public school!

    Yiddishe – that sounds a bit …spinned.

    #708954

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I believe a bad kid needs to be sent out but not to the streets, he should be transferred to a more accomodating yeshiva. These days there are many yeshivos that have opened for kids who need a “lighter” schedule and free-er atmosphere.

    So the child is not “bad” (i.e. distributing drugs or porn), they are just unable to keep up with the pace/grades that the current yeshiva demands?

    #708955

    Ofcourse
    Member

    Moq, “Yiddishe – that sounds a bit …spinned”.

    He he. Were you never witness to a situation that if you tried explaining it to someone, would be beyond belief? I have. You obviously havent. They happen every day though, both good and bad. Never say never.

    #708956

    WIY
    Member

    GAW

    There are yeshivos for such kids too. They exist because sadly they are necessary and BH some people with vision realized that its either make a Yeshivah for them or they hit the streets and die fom a drug OD shortly thereafter.

    A kid who is distributing drugs is a rodeph you realize? He must immediately be sent home he can’t be allowed near his classmates.

    #708957

    Ofcourse
    Member

    Moq, “OfCourse – Hold it – when people were willing to work for no money – it’s their responbility?? Are you kidding me? They have to eat, like everyone else.

    And I personally have seen dozens of children and adults helped by competent professionals”.

    Halevei you’d be right. Im not saying they dont try in varying degrees, depending on the specific therapist, I just never saw a real turn-around. At best, I’ve seen very slight improvements. Once a kid’s life experiences, ego, interests and drive is one way…..

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 150 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.