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Im wondering why there seems to be such a double standard in the coffee room. Let me explain. It seems that only certain charedi and very right wing hashkafahs are respected by the moderators and other forms of orthodox judiasm are not given the same respect. I dont want this post to turn into another fight about which form of worshipping god is the right one, I just want a simple answer as to why the moderators seem to have such a double standard. It actually blows my mind how anyone can live a truly religious and spiritual life while believing that jews from other communities are living their lives wrong. Just becuase you may interpret halachah differently, does not make you the all knowing source of Jewish law. i I understand the website is YESHIVA world news, but how about a little more tolerance and respect for some of the other religious sects. And again, please dont turn this into another yeshivish vs. chasidish vs. Modern Orhtodox fight im looking for intellectual answers only.
Pass the tissues.
Because the other “opinions” are wrong. It isn’t like both sides are right, different minhagim, different approach, etc. We honestly believe the other practices are objectively wrong and an incorrect and invalid approach to yiddishkeit.
We honestly believe the other practices are objectively wrong and an incorrect and invalid approach to yiddishkeit.
Invalidated by whom? Hashem? Your Rebbe? Your Rov? Someone who thinks that the yardstick for frumkeit is heavier stockings, certain shape of black hats, length of time you were supported and learned in Kollel, how many blatt Gemara you can regurgitate, etc ?
Or Ahavas Yisroel, always aiming to encourage Kiddush Hashem, and discourage Chilul Hashem?
Judging from the hundreds of posts I read this week, I think the Mods and the majority of posters here, are quite open-minded and “get it” very well and are very even handed and prioritize Ahavas Yisroel, always aiming to encourage Kiddush Hashem, and discourage Chilul Hashem, without favoring any one approach, within reason.
Sometimes there is one person using 12 different screenames to provoke response.
Let’s take for example…Joseph.
That would be a great example.
Where is the double standard? While it is inevitable that certain opinions will be quashed in a moderated forum that doesn’t mean that there is a double standard.
far east,
I’m sure you agree there are wrong ways to practice Judaism. And we certainly agree there are ways other than our own to practice Judaism. We only disagree on which are which.
So’s I’m not sure what you are trying to argue without reference to specific customs.
What’s double about the standard?
They let through any intelligent, respectful, non-bashing comment. I don’t know what they do with pure Divrei Kefira. It seems like there’s individual judgement on that. There are so many sites that enjoy frum-bashing. We aren’t interested in seeing that rubbish. We found one site whose stated goal is to be a safe haven for us like-minded individuals, who don’t want that stuff. Does this one site really get in your way?
Like letting threads about Facebook but not Instagram
I found this site to be quite open-minded and tolerant within reason. Thank you mods for doing a great job! (No,I am not a mod. I’m too discriminating.)
Like letting threads about Facebook but not Instagram
That’s because there is no moderation standard and every mod does as he (or she) pleases.
far east: The answer to your question to me is essentially what popa replied. We agree (for example) that the “conservatives” are not a valid approach to yiddishkeit. You feel that the approaches you are referring to are acceptable. We don’t.
I think that the reason would be that this is the YESHIVAH WORLD coffee room, not the Modern Orthodox Machmir or Mekeil CR. I agree with you that it often appears that one side is being given bigger latitude to expressing itself, than another. But this IS a site that comes with a certain hashkafa and agenda as it were, and whether or not we might all agree hashkafically, we have to recognize the source behind the site. If you want to post on a less restrictive blog, you will have to find a non-moderated group.
I am not Yeshivish, and I have often felt that certain opinions expressed strongly here, were not in line with my own religious hashkafa (i.e., I don’t see denim skirts per se as untzniusdig). But I also recognize that on a Yeshivish site, perhaps others might feel differently, and I respect our differences.
I suggest a subtitle to you, Oomis: “The Voice of Reason”.
While I’m (obviously) more to the Yeshivish/Chasidish, I enjoy your thoughts / opinions immensely. Always in a considerate, refined, respectful manner, never flying off the handle. It’s so interesting, insightful to see how you respond to delicate issues.
With many more considerate, understanding people like you, the world would stand a better chance.
I wonder why there are some people who feel that they can define Torah Judaisim as somethong other then what the Torah defines itself as and yet still be surprised when others make clear that their “feelings” are contrary to Torah.
For example.
The Torah states quite clearly “V’Talmud Torah K”Neged Kulam”.
Talmud Torah (learning Torah) is equal to all other Mitzvos.
Yet some people feel that they can disparage Torah and indicate there are other mitzvos greater then Torah Learning and still should be thought of as Torah Jews.
There is a more rationalistic understanding of “V’Talmud Torah K”Neged Kulam”.
It means that without knowing the Torah one cannot fulfill it.
It does not mean that one can exempt himself from all his normal obligations by studying Torah.
Those who learn in Kollel only do so while their wives are Mochel the Kesubah obligation that the husband has to support his wife.
Because the other “opinions” are wrong. It isn’t like both sides are right, different minhagim, different approach, etc. We honestly believe the other practices are objectively wrong and an incorrect and invalid approach to yiddishkeit.
And that is true for the “right wing” as well, such as those sects who support abusers.
“The Torah states quite clearly “V’Talmud Torah K”Neged Kulam”.
Talmud Torah (learning Torah) is equal to all other Mitzvos.
Ben Levi,
Please tell me where it says this in the Torah.
Interesting, Ben Levi. I recall learning this obscure passage in Gemoro Shabbes where Hillel Hazoken answers the mechutzaf about learning the whole Torah while standing on one foot. “What is hateful to you, don’t do to your neighbor”, explaining Veohavto Loreacho Komocho. As Hillel said, all the rest is commentary.
So to me, and to (I hope) most thinking frum Jews, if there is any mitzvah that outranks the others, it is to be an Oheiv Yisroel before you are a Yoishev Beis Medresh.
To my observation, it seems the reverse is true. At least to me it seems that the Yeshivish Olam is always being attacked. (Could be wrong)
However I’m so against to mud slinging and bashing. How I wish it would stop.
far east,
I used to post here far more often. I stopped, in part because of what you are talking about.
Also, because the posters here claiming to be Yeshivish are giving actually Yeshivish people IRL a bad name.
To my observation, it seems the reverse is true. At least to me it seems that the Yeshivish Olam is always being attacked. (Could be wrong)
However I’m so against to mud slinging and bashing. How I wish it would stop.
Also, because the posters here claiming to be Yeshivish are giving actually Yeshivish people IRL a bad name.
These have to be read together. The “Normal” Yeshivish (such as our Gedolim, and people who are Ovdei Hashem) are not criticized. It is those who “overlook” Halacha who are, especially when someone tried to promote such anti-halacha activity.
Like letting threads about Facebook but not Instagram
If it wasn’t a troll post it would’ve been approved, Joseph.
As for where it states what I said.
Meshes Peah.
As for “knowing the Torah” to fullfill it.
If you acknowledge that you must learn the Torah to know it then you acknowledge that without learning the Torah you do not know.
Results?
If someone who is not knowledgebale it Torah comes and states “these are Torah values” and another person who is knowledgable in Torah who actually sits and studies the Torah for much of the day, states that Torah values are not in line with what that person states it is logical to believe the Second person.
As for the “statement” made by Hillel to the mechutzaf.
Lets see.
Facts are the Torah Shel Ba’al Peh and Torah Shebiksav are huge (Tanach, Shisha Sidrei Mishna, Shas, Midrashim ect…) so how do we understand Hillel’s statement?
Is’nt Shammai’s statement more logical?
Of course I am not the first to raise this question the meforshim on that statement raise this question and explain exactly what Hillel meant Loo it up.
And thank you for providing a perfect example of why intensive Torah study with all commentaries is needed and one cannot really base their opinions on a few random unconnected statments that they heard here and there.
I suspect there is a double standard in the coffee room. Otherwise you should see posts by Zdad about certain recent news story which you don’t see.
Uneeq. What are you talking about???
“As for where it states what I said.
Meshes Peah”
Thank you, So it is not in the Torah, correct? It was said “about” the Torah. My point is that While we don’t have to entertain every naarish idea that someone comes up with and “proves” from the Torah, we certainly cannot dismiss halachic opinions that stem from an actual effort to understand and interpret the torah by people who have studied it extensively. A rough example would be say…. sturgeon. There are actual rabbonim who hold its kosher. Not just b’dieved kosher but full fledged kosher. Now we have a majority that disagrees but does that “discredit” the dissenters? I would posit No. But recently there has been a movement in Orthodoxy to not just disagree with someone on the other side of the aisle but to actively discredit the other side. I dont see a need for that. Do you take for granted electricity is ossur on shabbos? Probably you do since contemporary poskim have paskened so. But around the time of its discovery, no one really understood what it was. And some rabbonim at the time may have had different explanations on the nature of electricty and some may have leaned to the ossur side and some to the muttar side (depending on what the electrons actually do) Now that we more fully understand the nature of electricity we have determined its ossur, but back then were those that were mattir it “wrong” at that time? Were they kofrim? I think we are on a dangerous road these days where dissenters are branded heretics and “goyim”. Note, Im not talking about folks who abandon torah or choose not to follow some laws.
“but i mean there were 12 seperate shevatim. There is no one way to follow Judiasm”
what the heck does the amount of shvatim have to do with respecting and validating movements in judaism that roiv gedoilim of yesteryear held were kfira?
Oh. Nothing.
Ben Levi, you have no idea how much learning I have or haven’t done – or anyone else in the CR, for that matter. Who are you to say what anyone’s perspective is based on, other than your own? Your assumptions, and your gaaiva are frankly breathtaking.
There’s a reason why Hillel is followed in all but a handful of disputes. Shammai’s perspectives, while logical, don’t often meet the standard of “V’chai bohem” and thus aren’t implementable.
And Hillel gave a clear insight into VeOhavto, and its corrolary. without it, learning is without legs to stand on, just as without learning, ahavas yisroel is without arms to help our fellow Jew.
You seek to justify an exclusivity of doctrine and “permission to have a Jewish point of view” so long as it matches your own world view.
I know individual Jews who know more about several mitzvos through experience and doing than you or I could ever learn from sitting and learning. If it makes you feel better about yourself to consider your “elite” perspective the one true way, kol hakavod to you. Enjoy the view from the pinnacle of Judaism. THe rest of us will try to live in the real world.
kkls: At first, I thought you to be a troll, based on the fact that your first posts were very troll-ish, especially the Instagram thread. You also got bent about the Instagram thread, claiming the CR mods to have a double standard when it is obvious why they don’t let your thread. Add in the fact that you’re a new user, and you fit the the classic John Troll persona.
Now, I see that you were just ignorant of basic forum etiquette, and I will further judge you favorably.
Ps. You may want to google a little bit about internet trolls. You’ll understand the reason why the CR is very nasty to them.
Talk about double standards, I just went through the YU cover-up thread, which, sadly, was closed right as it was getting more and more fascinating.
Although I am quite Yeshivish and tend to disagree with many of the more MO posters here on various issues, I always understood that they had a different view than mine and could respect that. Especially when it came to the subject of child abuse.
It was therefore absolutely shocking to me how “pareve” some of the oh-so-vehement-anti-abuse posters were once the subject was YU.
Hypocrisy at it’s absolute, and very disappointing, best.
Isn’t that in Pirkei Avos? Mt rov explained to me that this is the ONLY way in which a Yid can be mekayeim the whole Torah, because there are mitzvos that are specific to some individuals and not others (such as mitzvos incumbent on Kohanim, bechorim, women,people who live in E”Y but not in Galus, etc.). By learning Torah, however (Talmud Torah), one has fulfilled the equivalent of even those mitzvos that he could not necessarily otherwise be mekayeim.
Uneeq: I googled internet trolls like you suggested, and now understand why this is horrible. I can see why you and some others might have thought that i was a troll, and will definately try not to post anything like that again.
My question was a sincere question, because many of my friends had gotten instagram accounts and i wanted to know if it was really that bad if i got one to. However, since i was a new member and didnt really know the type, i didnt yet understand that most people on this forum would never go near it.
What happened with ZK is terrible, but if it had to happen i am glad that this occured soon after i became a member. This has shown me that everyone must really be careful with what they post.
kkls: My question was a sincere question, because many of my friends had gotten instagram accounts and i wanted to know if it was really that bad if i got one to.
Your question can be asked in this forum. But it takes time to be able to figure out how to ask a question properly, not to sound like someone who wants to stir up controversy.
When anyone asks- is “X” bad? – Where “X” is Facebook/internet/stalking or anything that could be controversial, it is assumed that the poster would like to get a argument started.
If honestly you would like to hear the debate, because you are unsure if X is good or bad, be sincere and explain in the OP why you are in doubt and people will respond to your thread.
Oh, and some advice as a former user of Instagram. Don’t use it.
Although I am quite Yeshivish and tend to disagree with many of the more MO posters here on various issues, I always understood that they had a different view than mine and could respect that. Especially when it came to the subject of child abuse.
It was therefore absolutely shocking to me how “pareve” some of the oh-so-vehement-anti-abuse posters were once the subject was YU.
I agree with this. I would also expect a Chatholic Church type investigation into YU. I would not be shocked if R’ Norman Lamm will have to give up his pension and/or settle in a lawsuit.
The difference between that & the other case is that YU will probably cooperate, while the other sect has acted like the Mafia by threatening, attempting to bribe & denounced the victim, so that no one else dares speak up.
Ctrl Alt Del -“The Torah states quite clearly “V’Talmud Torah K”Neged Kulam”.
Talmud Torah (learning Torah) is equal to all other Mitzvos.
Ben Levi,
Please tell me where it says this in the Torah.”
S’A -Y’D 246:18.
Health,
Unless I’m misunderstanding, C-A-D doesn’t consider Torah sheba’al peh part of Torah. If Mishnayos wasn’t good enough, why would S”A be better?
There is only One Judaism – Orthodox Judaism.
There is only one way to serve Hashem the G-D of Israel and that is by fulfilling His mitzvos and by not departing from them.
What some people believe is not real.
Encouraging people to be un-real is not good by Torah.
DY -“Unless I’m misunderstanding, C-A-D doesn’t consider Torah sheba’al peh part of Torah. If Mishnayos wasn’t good enough, why would S”A be better?”
I was always under the impression that he was Orthodox.
Health,
Read this post:
“”As for where it states what I said.
Meshes Peah” (Ben Levi)
Thank you, So it is not in the Torah, correct?” (CAD)
and decide for yourself.
DY – I firmly believe you are smart enough to know what CAD meant when he wrote that. What you said in response was below the belt and untrue. An accusation like that out of context can be very harmful to both of you.
This is The YESHIVA World. It should be geared to hashkafos that match the title of the site.
If anything, I am surprised at how much leeway posters who consistently post borderline apikorsus and out-and-out malicious leytzanus are given here.
One tzadik gomur even posted about boycotting stores that carry certain mehadrin products and he was not censored. If that is not tolerance, I don’t know what is.
Far east, the Rambam and his Mishna Torah were accepted by all, in his day. The M”T spread to far-away lands pretty quickly. They had issues with the Moreh and they still do.
Syag, I would love for him to defend himself, and I definitely left open the possibility that he doesn’t mean what I think he means. What do you think that comment means? Do you think he’s nitpicking semantics? I would hope so, but it doesn’t look that way.
Health, I am orthodox. Daas, thank you for proving my point. The first thing you thought of to do was to discredit me as a non-believer. (at least in torah sheBaal peh) simply because I pointed out to you that it doesn’t actually SAY that talmud torah k’neged kulam. And furthermore, there would never be anyone who would believe that to the point that they would actually put that into practice. Want a cheeseburger? Go ahead!! I did morning seder today and after all, talmud torah k’neged kulam right? Do you really believe that statement? Would you put it into practice? No. You wouldn’t. Because the thrust of the statement is to enforce the importance of talmud torah, and that learning serves as the base of all observance. No rav in the world (past or future) would ever take that statement literally. If they did it would spell the end of torah observance as we know it.
Now that I have established what I meant we can move on to the larger point. In general , there is a trend toward the right in orthodox Judaism today. It is resulting in a lot of discord because instead of it being a machlokes in learning we have moved it out of the theoretical and made it a real machlokes. We have even taken minhag and elevated it to the status of halachah. (a different conversation altogether) And those we see not following what we deem to be the right way we immediately dismiss as kofrim, goyim, whatever (sound familiar Daas?) Ad hominem attacks like :
“Unless I’m misunderstanding, C-A-D doesn’t consider Torah sheba’al peh part of Torah. If Mishnayos wasn’t good enough, why would S”A be better?” DaasYochid
are part of the problem. Did you really think that?
We need to step back from the brink. Sometimes at night before I go to bed I pick up some nach for some “light” reading and I am astounded at the repetition of history. I have often wondered if there is some navi out there, or some chronicler who is writing this stuff down, all the petulant arguments and all the divisiveness. We certainly havent learned our lesson from our own history. Maybe when our great great grandkids read our story they will get the message. Maybe. But I’m not holding my breath.
As for the original post by FarEast, Yes, you are finding that the more out there opinions may be quashed. It is simply a function of the rightward trend in Orthodox observance. I am positive that the “taliban women” are convinced that they have the “true” observance of tznius. Do they? Are we kofrim in their eyes? would they let you post your opinions on tznius on their forum? (yeah, yeah, the internet is ossur. I know) Here is another example. Some younger kollel guys I know referred to me the one day (in my presence) as “Harry” (an apparent reference to my MO looks and therefore shaky observance right?) not knowing that I am aware of the meaning, and certainly not knowing of my years spent in beis medrash. The “inside” joke being that “ha ha he doesn’t know how superior we are to him because we are spending time in kollel and he goes to work every day”. I brushed it off as youthful indiscretion, but it really bothered me that they couldn’t accept that there actually may be other ways to be orthodox then their definition. And that they quite possibly really thought that I was some lesser Jew than them. And that is the crux of it. We are slowly fracturing into splinter groups that can no longer tolerate each other. What are we to do? What are we to do…..
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