drinking on purim, teaching kids?

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  • #602746

    aproudbyg
    Participant

    Purim night i went to get somehting in the hallway, and i there where 3 second graders having one of the saddest arguments i have ever heard. this is how it went,kid 1″ no my father is more drunk” kid 2″ no mine is, my father was leaving_____(place had seuda) and he threw up on the porch!” kid 3 starts crying saying”my father doesnt get drumk”

    Is this really what purim has come to? Kids argue who has a more wasted father? Any thoughts? Does this trouble anyone else?

    #1056330

    shmoel
    Member

    Its a mitzvah to be as drunk as possible on Purim.

    #1056331

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    What is the issue here? That one kid was sad that his father was not drinking? Too bad, the father didn’t want to drink.

    #1056332

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Its a mitzvah to be as drunk as possible on Purim.

    Completely and utterly false.

    Even if you subscribe to the opinion that one should get drunk on Purim, it’s only to the point of ad d’lo yada.

    There is no mitzvah to keep drinking to the point of getting physically sick or being unable to stand or perform any of the other mitzvos that need to be performed (such as davening Ma’ariv, for example).

    I am proud of the fact that I have never been drunk in my life — and that includes Purim.

    The Wolf

    #1056333

    PLONIALMONI4
    Member

    Not quite sure why you are raising this issue long after Purim but suffice it to say that getting blind drunk on Purim is not what the Chachomim had in mind.

    Wonder what justifies excessive drinking at a kiddish the balance of the year.

    Alcohol is a problem that has become quite prevalent within the community. Was at a shalom zachor a few weeks ago in Flatbush where I observed a 17 year old boy consume 5 bottles of beer and his father did not do a thing.

    #1056334

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    but suffice it to say that getting blind drunk on Purim is not what the Chachomim had in mind.

    Actually, it does not suffice to say that. The gemara, rishonim, shulchan aruch, etc. say that it is a mitzva to get blind drunk. In fact, the example brought by the gemara is of an amorah who killed his friend in his blind drunkenness.

    Your opinion is backed by some poskim, but not by the pashtus nor by the majority. It does not suffice to “say” it.

    #1056335

    PLONIALMONI4
    Member

    To popa bar abba

    I am sure you are a fine and decent human being and try to keep the Torah to the best of your ability.

    I am also sure that you would not disagree with me that we both wish that people would focus on being as diligent in keeping the halachos of lashon hara, financial honesty and not speking during davening as they are in observing this once a year event.

    If you will respond by asking

    “What does one have to do with the other?”

    would require me to suggest that you think a little deeper about the point(s) I am trying to get across.

    #1056337

    stuck
    Member

    Ploni: A person should be diligent about no loshon hora, financial integrity, AND getting drunk ad dlo yoda on Purim.

    #1056338

    2scents
    Participant

    One thing for sure, throwing up as a result of getting drunk is not mentioned in any place as a mitzva!

    #1056339

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: The majority of Poskim post-SH”A try to counter-read the idea or Pasken against it outright, presumably because it’s inconceivable that Chazal want us all to get blind drunk once a year.

    #1056340

    stuck
    Member

    Sam: How do you count a majority?

    #1056341

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    sam: give us a survey. I did the survey last time about wine v. other alcohol.

    #1056342

    stuck
    Member

    Forget which way the majority is. At minimum, both shittas of psak halacha on ad dlo yoda are fully legit. So no one should be knocking the other shitta. So if ones shitta l’halacha is that one must get blind drunk on Purim, accept that.

    #1056343

    Sam2
    Participant

    Magen Avraham (quotes the Maharil I believe about the Gematriya), Mishnah Brurah, Aruch Hashulchan, Pri Megadim, Pri Chadash, Chayei Adam, The Vilna Ga’on doesn’t Pasken but what he mentions in the Siman is a Tziyun to two Gemaras that say how terrible being drunk is, Kitzur Shulchan Aruch, (many of these are quoting the Me’iri that if you know that you will have Kalus Rosh it’s better not to get drunk), off the top of my head.

    #1056344

    Sam2
    Participant

    Stuck: Even according to the Shittos that say you have to get drunk, they qualify it and mention that if you will come to Kalus Rosh then you shouldn’t get drunk and Yatza S’charo B’hefseido.

    I have a question for you: So many people nowadays are so Makpid on everything the Mishnah B’rurah says. They are Choshesh for a Da’as Yachid in the Achronim and consider people who don’t follow the M”B’s Eitzos Tovos as not being Medakdek in Mitzvos. So why are people so quick to dismiss the M”B here and say that the other Derech of P’sak is just as legitimate?

    #1056345

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Sam2: I’ve been told by several rabbanim that we generally do not pasken from the (majority of the) Me’iri that was lost for a long time.

    Popa: You can get to ad d’lo yada b’hiddur l’chol hadeios without getting as drunk as some of the people I saw this Purim.

    #1056346

    Be lucky
    Participant

    I think your taking it to far

    #1056347

    stuck
    Member

    Sam: Its simply following S”A.

    #1056348

    Sam2
    Participant

    Itche: Just because in general we don’t necessarily Pasken like the Me’iri doesn’t mean that we can ignore him even when a tremendous number of Achronim brings him down.

    #1056349

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Sam2: Fair enough, but you have to admit that there is a tzad to require getting drunk without any cheshbonos about kalus rosh.

    #1056350

    The little I know
    Participant

    Come now, children. There’s drunk, and there’s drunk. The vomiting person, sick to stomach, and blitzed in the mind is certainly NOT what the Chazal meant with ad delo yoda. The Poskim describe this in detail, and nearly unanimously. Those poskim to whom we turn for everything, chumros, etc. are among those who proscribe the drunkeness that we find so disgusting. Yet, many of us relish the day we can let the guard down, and get sloshed, claiming it to be a mitzvah. Well, that is tailoring mitzvos to fit with personal agendas. I dare to state that this is NOT kabolas haTorah in any way. If one followed a particular shittah consistently, I might be persuaded to look away at his getting drunk. But the shikrus we notice is unquestionably not the intent of Chazal, not a mitzvah, against the Purim spirit, and a major departure from Avodas Hashem. The Rambam describes this in glowing detail, as do many of the conventional poskim who we follow as our guiding lights.

    #1056351

    shmoel
    Member

    What does Shulchan Aruch say?

    #1056352

    Sam2
    Participant

    Itche: Only in the sense that there is a Tzad to not Pasken like other Rishonim who are brought down by all of the major recent Poskim just because they are not majority opinions.

    #1056353

    Wolf:

    “Even if you subscribe to the opinion that one should get drunk on Purim, it’s only to the point of ad d’lo yada. There is no mitzvah to keep drinking to the point of getting physically sick or being unable to stand or perform any of the other mitzvos that need to be performed (such as davening Ma’ariv, for example).”

    The most pashut pshat of ad di’lo yadah is to drink until you know absolutely nothing. Getting physically sick and being unable to stand would seem to be a lesser level of drunkenness than that, so one would usually need to go through these stages before becoming drunk to the point where they do not know the difference between boruch Mordechai and arur Haman.

    Now, there are certainly Poskim who define the chiyuv of ad di’lo yadah differently; however, there are many (TOr, HSulchan Oruch, etc) who hold this way.

    “I am proud of the fact that I have never been drunk in my life — and that includes Purim.”

    And I am proud of the fact that I have rarely been sober on Purim.

    stuck:

    “both shittas of psak halacha on ad dlo yoda are fully legit. So no one should be knocking the other shitta. So if ones shitta l’halacha is that one must get blind drunk on Purim, accept that.”

    +1

    PLONIALMONI4:

    “I am also sure that you would not disagree with me that we both wish that people would focus on being as diligent in keeping the halachos of lashon hara, financial honesty and not speking during davening as they are in observing this once a year event.”

    True. However, there is one rather large difference; there is nobody (to the best of my limited knowledge) who not only denies but actually advocates against keeping the halachos of loshon hara, genievah, etc. while there are plenty of people who seem to feel perfectly comfortable denying and advocating against the chiyuv of drinking on Purim.

    (Again, there is some argument as to how far this chiyuv goes, but to pretend it doesn’t exist (or that there isn’t a legitimate halachic basis for getting very, very drunk) is just flat out wrong.)

    Sam2:

    “So many people nowadays are so Makpid on everything the Mishnah B’rurah says. They are Choshesh for a Da’as Yachid in the Achronim and consider people who don’t follow the M”B’s Eitzos Tovos as not being Medakdek in Mitzvos. So why are people so quick to dismiss the M”B here and say that the other Derech of P’sak is just as legitimate?”

    The difference is that these people are makpid on the Mishnah Brurah, not meikel on it. And this shittah of the Mishnah Brurah is certainly a kulah.

    (Not that that makes it any less of a legitimate shitah, only that you cannot fault those who are “Makpid on everything the Mishnah B’rurah says” (makpid being the key word) for not relying on the kulah of the M”B here.)

    #1056354

    fedup11210
    Member

    To the KANOI NEXT DOOR: it does not say that you should get drunk until you know nothing. It says that you should drink “ad dlo yadha bein arur haman and boruch mordechai!

    #1056355

    Logician
    Participant

    Are you guys honestly doing this AGAIN ? Some of your comments are so similar, I think you’re just pasting them from other threads!

    #1056356

    that argument is extremely sad! it is so backward to think that chazal would want us to make ourselves sick and throw up and act so disgusting. i can’t stand when i see ppl like that on purim, and just as a side point- which really is not really a side point, but also very important- it is SUCH a chillul Hashem! what do you think goes though the minds of other ppl when they see drunken jews throwing up on every block? does it make sense that that is what Hashem wants from us????

    #1056357

    stuck
    Member

    Yes, it does. That is what Shulchan Aruch tell us. And we follow S”A whether it makes you feel good or bad.

    #1056358

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    that argument is extremely sad! it is so backward to think that chazal would want us to make ourselves sick and throw up and act so disgusting.

    Sam: Do you see what you are doing? The shitta that we should do that, and should get sick and throw up, is a completely valid shitta. It is the pashtus in the gemara, and is held of by the shulchan aruch.

    Even the shittos that hold it is not the halacha, hold that it was the halacha until the story in the gemara happened.

    It is not backward. I’m not saying I understand it, and I’m not saying you should understand it. But to simply sit there on your armchair and call chazal and rishonim “backward” is absolutely wrong.

    yummy: why don’t you ask your father that question? Or your rav. Ask them if the shulchan aruch who holds you are supposed to do exactly that, is backward?

    #1056359

    Sam2
    Participant

    The Kanoi Next Door: So it’s a Kula to not get drunk? Interesting. I would have thought that the “kula” was the Heter to get wasted, which everyone agree is absolutely an Issur Gamur all year round. I guess that goes back to the old saying that there’s no such thing as a Chumra which isn’t Mavie Lidei Kula and vice versa.

    #1056360

    stuck
    Member

    Of course its a kula to not get drunk. The basic halacha is that you must get drunk on Purim.

    #1056361

    popa- my father DOES NOT get drunk. but thanks for the advice anyway:) and neither does our rav make himself that grossly drunk. sorry to burst your bubble. and (i’m sure) it does not say in the shulchan aruch that you should be throwing up all over the place. kedoshim t’hiyu. tamim t’hiye im Hashem… for some reason getting grossly drunk does not (at least in my mind)fall into either of these p’sukim.

    #1056362

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yummy: I didn’t say your father gets drunk, nor that your rav gets drunk. I said you should have some respect for the rishonim and acharonim, including the shulchan aruch who say quite literally that you should get drunk.

    Just because we paskin one way, should not mean that we consider the other opinion backwards or barbaric.

    #1056363

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I find this whole discussion beyond ironic. Isn’t what everyone says is the problem with “MO” here the fact that they like to pick and choose Rishonim to fit their agendas (others’ words, not mine).

    #1056364

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I also find this conversation ironic. Don’t you usually argue that we should respect other opinions that we don’t hold of. Shouldn’t that apply to rishonim and the shulchan aruch?

    I’m not saying you should say it is even ok to get drunk today, if we happen to pasken otherwise. But you cannot call the shulchan aruch backwards.

    My answer to your question is that the minhag has always been to get drunk. We have always paskened that you get drunk. Nothing has changed in all those years.

    #1056365

    stuck
    Member

    Following Shulchan Aruch is hardly picking and choosing.

    It is the ones who don’t want to get drunk that might be picking and choosing.

    #1056366

    hold on- i didn’t say you shouldn’t get drunk. you should just be aware that there is drunk as in ranging from being a little high to being mildly drunk, then there is drunk as in more than mildly drunk to being grossly throwing up drunk. the first type i am ok with. the second type i am not. and i don’t think that the rishonim/acharonim would be ok with it either if they saw to what degree many ppl do it. and did it ever occur to you that maybe in those days there was more kedusha, just simply by the fact that we were closer to the times of kabbalas haTorah, and that now since ppl have totally different yetzer haras for really horrible things, which maybe exacerbated through drunkenness, so in these days, with our nisyonos, we should not get that drunk?

    #1056367

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    yummy: that is an interesting theory. But it isn’t how we usually do halacha.

    #1056368

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I was responding to your comment about calling the opinion we don’t Pasken by being backwards. And are you sure about your Minhag thing? Rav Schachter always mentions that when he was growing up no one got wasted and I was told (only secondhand though) from a very reliable source that several Rabbonim from Europe who they had spoken to said that is was never the Minhag in Europe that everyone would get plastered. Only a few Yechidim would and they were looked down upon.

    #1056369

    stuck
    Member

    Sam: Rebbis and Bochorim have regularly been getting plastered on Purim in America since at least (that I know of from bochorim from that time) in the 1940’s. And it was as such in pre-war Europe as well.

    #1056370

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    PBA: I was responding to your comment about calling the opinion we don’t Pasken by being backwards.

    I don’t undertand. You think I usually call opinions of rishonim that we don’t pasken like “backwards”?

    And are you sure about your Minhag thing?

    Rav Yisroel Salanter used to get drunk out of his brains until he was lying under the tables drunk. I heard this story along with the direct line of who heard it from whom. I think it was 6th or 7th hand. And the first two “hands” were the alter of kelm, the alter of slabodka; and the next few were just about as reliable.

    But, I suppose that is all the information I have about it.

    #1056371

    explain that popa. what do you mean its not the way we usually do halacha? there are a lot of things that we did in those days that we don’t do now because of yeridas hadoros and our super powerful yetzer hara.

    #1056372

    HIE
    Participant

    this argument here…. such nonsense..

    #1056373

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    what do you mean its not the way we usually do halacha? there are a lot of things that we did in those days that we don’t do now because of yeridas hadoros and our super powerful yetzer hara.

    Please give me 3 examples since the time of the shulchan aruch.

    Or blazes, give me 3 examples ever.

    #1056374

    i can’t think of three right now but i can think of one at the present moment. and i will preface this by saying that this occasion was NOT halacha specifically, but i am just pointing it out to show something that we changed because of our yetzer hara’s gone mad:

    tu b’av. girls dancing in the fields, boys picking out which one would be their wife. what do you think would happen if we would do that these days? and please don’t say it would be the end of our shidduch crisis.

    #1056375

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So you think that changed because our yetzer hara “has gone mad”.

    1. Please bring a source that that is the reason.

    2. Please bring a source that there was a halacha there which we no longer follow.

    3. Do you have even one which is less than 2000 years? How about since the time of the shulchan aruch?

    4. This is not the point. The rema does not say that anything changed. The poskim who hold we don’t get drunk do not say that anything changed. You made that up. That is not ok.

    And it was not ok for you to call it “backwards” if it has changed. If it has changed, then it was not backwards then, and it is not backwards now–it has just changed.

    Just retract it. I’ll respect you.

    #1056376

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Sorry, I’ve got too much to do on Purim to get drunk.

    The Wolf

    #1056377

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: Gebrochts is a great example, no?

    Rav Yisrael Salanter is famous for having a different Shittah about drinking on Purim (see the Emek Brachah). Yes, he did used to get drunk. And from what I have heard he was a minority.

    #1056378

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Gebrochts is a great example, no?

    I think not. Gebrochts does not have to do with our yetzer hara changing, it has to do with our knowledge of the world changing. I could bring dozens of examples for things like that.

    Rav Yisrael Salanter is famous for having a different Shittah about drinking on Purim (see the Emek Brachah). Yes, he did used to get drunk. And from what I have heard he was a minority.

    Well, that explains it all then. I am a 5th generation talmid of R’ Yisroel, as are most of the yeshiva people in the world, since almost all the yeshivos are slabodka.

    #1056379

    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: it has to do with our knowledge of the world changing. I could bring dozens of examples for things like that.

    You mean like Metzitzah B’peh? 😉

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