Driving on Shabbos

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  • #619062

    DerShteygingYid
    Participant

    Most of us understand the heter for being able to hail a cab on Shabbos in case of a medical emergency.

    But, what if we plan to be at a party until after Shabbos begins and then plan to get a cab to return home – since walking back home through bad neighborhoods is dangerous?

    What is the halachic rationale for permitting this?

    #1212332

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Obviously this about Ivanka Trump.

    This is not a normal party by any standard. And the Secret Service is involved

    #1212333

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Who said it is permitted?

    Question for your LOR. Why would you be permitted to attend the “party” in the first place?

    Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (SA) 33: Things that we don’t do because of danger.

    “7:… Walking alone at night”

    If the distance and event are permissible, also questions for LOR, maybe maybe maybe walk with someone else. –May be a yichud issue if no one is around and it’s with someone of the opposite gender.

    If the area has a dangerous reputation and the only safe way to return home is via car, why a rabbi would tell you to go?

    Also this is assuming this “party” is lekavod Shabbat and permissible for someone to attend.

    #1212334

    TheGoq
    Participant

    Do you go to many parties on Friday afternoons?

    #1212335

    Mammele
    Participant
    #1212336

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    It seems that your question is a veiled attempt to discuss the ruling for the Kushner’s. Since we do not know who and what was told to the Rav who was asked the shailoh (i.e. what if the Secret Service advised the Rav of the security concerns) we should not be commenting.

    #1212337

    Mammele
    Participant

    If true, the question was probably asked as what to do once there, not if they should go to the ball in the first place. So the Rabbi may have been “forced” into given a heter, if that’s possible.

    Legitimate heterim to be driven home by car are also given when one is forced out of the hospital, rather than spending many hours in the lounge or wherever on Shabbos. But then there was a NEED to be there, and part of the reason is probably so one shouldn’t hesitate to go to the hospital for a ??? ????. Or when someone is released and not fully by the kochos to walk yet, and a hospital waiting room is not the best place to recuperate.

    But as I mentioned in the other thread, I’m really bothered by the scenario you outlined, and even with a heter it’s definitely not in the spirit of Shabbos.

    #1212339

    DerShteygingYid
    Participant

    iacisrmma – That is why the question was made in general. No, we cannot comment on a specific situation. Obviously, the Trump-Kushner heter (if it even exists) prompted the general question.

    #1212340

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Is a Jew permitted to run for president during an election cycle when the upcoming Jan. 20th inauguration day falls on a Friday?

    #1212341

    iacisrmma
    Participant

    goq: It was common in Europe (and here in the USA at the turn of the 19th – 20th Century) for chasunahs to take place on Erev Shabbos.

    Lightbrite: Please remember that the Kitzur was writing based on the times when there were no artificial lighting and it was completely dark.

    What has been written about the Kushner’s is based on a comment by someone in EY (not a member of the family) and while it is being widely reported we don’t know if it is true. So there is a whole lot of speculation.

    #1212342

    apushatayid
    Participant

    If, perhaps, maybe, who knows. Exactly. It makes for nice gossip. Until we know who asked, what was asked, and who answered what they answered and when the answer is applicable, is all speculation, at best.

    #1212343

    yichusdik
    Participant

    We’re always hearing here – ask your LOR. I think that whatever one thinks about the President, the tshuva, or Jared K and Ivanka T, it is wonderful to see a person in the public eye ask a shaila and abide by the tshuva.

    #1212344

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Lightbrite………….

    Why not? There is no issue of Shabbos at noon when the President is sworn in. There is no governmental requirement to hold or attend balls/parties in the evening after the swearing in.

    #1212345

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    CT

    The inuagruation is a day long event going into the night, its not just the swearing in ceremony.

    the parties afterward are actually quite important. Even if they arent legallyn required, they are the “Minhag of the Medina”

    #1212346

    Meno
    Participant

    I was once given a heter by a prominent respectable posek to take a cab home from the hospital on shabbos with a patient who had difficulty walking. (He only told me after we had already walked home, so it wasn’t a psak l’ma’seh for that occurrence, but he said it would have been muttar.)

    #1212347

    chizuk1
    Participant

    I’d just like to point out that the “party” Ivanka/Jared are attending is a Kosher catered meal with Kosher wine, food, etc. It’s billed as a Shabbos meal party.

    #1212349

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    If the area has a dangerous reputation and the only safe way to return home is via car, why a rabbi would tell you to go?

    Good question indeed. One is not allowed to intentionally put oneself in a position where he/she will need to be mechallel Shabbos.

    #1212350

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    We’re always hearing here – ask your LOR. I think that whatever one thinks about the President, the tshuva, or Jared K and Ivanka T, it is wonderful to see a person in the public eye ask a shaila and abide by the tshuva.

    I always hesitate to say that, because not every “LOR” is a competent posek.

    #1212351

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I was once given a heter by a prominent respectable posek to take a cab home from the hospital on shabbos with a patient who had difficulty walking. (He only told me after we had already walked home, so it wasn’t a psak l’ma’seh for that occurrence, but he said it would have been muttar.)

    A choleh often gets a heter for violating a shvus, and that should never be applied to a non-choleh situation.

    #1212352

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    BTW It seems the Parade was running late (Likely due to Secret Service) and will end after shabbos starts

    There is no real way to plan these things

    #1212353

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Just want to remind everyone that Jared Kushner is Jewish (and possibly Ivanka as well) so the halachos of L”H apply.

    “We’re always hearing here – ask your LOR.”

    DY: “I always hesitate to say that, because not every “LOR” is a competent posek.”

    That is why I also hesitate to say that every time someone asks a halachic (or any type of) question in the CR and instead I do try to answer it if I am able to. I know that there are some who feel that the appropriate response in such cases is always: “ask your LOR” but my 2 hesitations are:

    1. I don’t know who they will ask. & 2. I assume that most people who ask questions in the CR are doing so because they don’t in fact have someone to ask.

    #1212354

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    LU

    No Posek has come out and said Ivanka wasnt jewish and that the conversion wasnt valid. Rav Shecter was on the Beis Din who converted her and the Chief Rabbinate of Israel has also said the conversion was valid.

    #1212355

    Mammele
    Participant

    So over Shabbos I heard that Jared Kushner davens three times a day, and I’m thinking perhaps I judged him wrong (that post wasn’t approved). To confound me even more now comes news that the whole family attended an interfaith church service on Shabbos.

    So now LU will scream L”H and I’m wondering, if someone publicly violates Halacha, knowingly or unknowingly, shouldn’t there be some public outcry to set things straight so that everyone knows it’s not allowed?

    #1212356

    chizuk1
    Participant

    LU, saying “possibly” to Ivanka’s judaism is itself Lashon Hara.

    Among others, R’ Moshe Heinemann gave his approval to Ivanka’s conversion once he looked into it.

    At this point she is considered 100% jewish, despite some leniencies in certain halachos that some segments of Orthodoxy follow.

    #1212357

    mw13
    Participant

    if someone publicly violates Halacha, knowingly or unknowingly, shouldn’t there be some public outcry to set things straight so that everyone knows it’s not allowed?

    I don’t think anybody here considers Ivanka Trump the arbitrator of what is or is not Halachicly permissible. So even if she did rely on an eyebrow-raising heter, I’m not convinced that it’s necessary to publicly denounce her actions.

    #1212359

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    It is not an eyeraising Psak.

    People in government need to obey security procedures. Political Assasinations are a real threat.

    It would likely fall under the category of Pkuach Nefesh

    #1212360

    DaMoshe
    Participant

    The fact is that they asked the question. I’m sure the Rav who handled it consulted with the Secret Service and anyone else needed to give a psak. We don’t know all the details, and most of us here aren’t Rabbonim, so who are we to speculate on it? Even if we do disagree, it doesn’t reflect on Jared and Ivanka, it reflects on the Rabbi who gave the psak! If they had decided for themselves, I can see where they’d be wrong, but they asked the question. Isn’t that what they’re supposed to do?

    #1212361

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    People in government need to obey security procedures. Political Assasinations are a real threat.

    It would likely fall under the category of Pkuach Nefesh

    Nonsense. They didn’t have to go.

    #1212362

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Even if we do disagree, it doesn’t reflect on Jared and Ivanka, it reflects on the Rabbi who gave the psak! If they had decided for themselves, I can see where they’d be wrong, but they asked the question. Isn’t that what they’re supposed to do?

    You are responsible for choosing to whom you ask your shailas.

    #1212363

    Joseph
    Participant

    If they asked a “rabbi” like Haskel Lookstein, who the RCA condemned for going to church, it isn’t worth much.

    #1212364

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I have no idea why they went

    This is just a guess on my part. I have nothing to back it up, but being that they are in the government now , maybe they had an obligation to go. Just like they went to the interfaith service on Shabbos. I dont know the reasons why they went or if they even had a choice

    #1212365

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    While it wasnt on Shabbos, I know there was a debate about Rabbi Johnathan Sacks attending the royal marriage of Harry and Kate.

    Again I dont know who made the decisions or if he was obligated to go or not

    #1212366

    Mammele
    Participant

    DaMoshe: are you talking about going to Church Shabbos also? And are you sure they asked?

    #1212367

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Nobody knows who the Shaila was asked of, The whole issues as I understand it came from an Israeli news source, not from the Trumps

    #1212369

    Avi K
    Participant

    Assuming that the car was driven by a non-Jew it would only be a shevut. The room for a heter is then greater. If the Secret Service personnel are the majority then the question whether the car is being driven for them or the Kushners (even if the Kushners would walk the security detail would have to accompany them ). If for the security people then it is oovin d’chol or ziluta d’Shabbat (Rav Moshe says this about riding a bus where the Jew does not have to pay) which might even be easier to be waived.

    #1212370

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    ZD: “No Posek has come out and said Ivanka wasnt jewish and that the conversion wasnt valid. Rav Shecter was on the Beis Din who converted her and the Chief Rabbinate of Israel has also said the conversion was valid.”

    Chizuk1: “LU, saying “possibly” to Ivanka’s judaism is itself Lashon Hara”

    I didn’t mean to imply that there is any question about the validity of her conversion, and I apologize if my words were taken the way.

    I personally do not have any (or hardly any) information to be able to know if her conversion was or was not kosher and therefore, I didn’t want to state flat-out that she is Jewish as though it’s a definite fact when I had no idea if it was or not.

    All I meant by the word “possibly” is that to me it’s a possibility since I know nothing about it one way or the other, so I didn’t want to say something false and imply that I know that she is definitely Jewish when I don’t in fact know.

    I hadn’t seen it as a LH issue, and I actually thought that I was being dan l’kaf zchus since some of the posters seemed to think that she had done something against halacha which would certainly be fine if she’s not Jewish anyhow. I also didn’t want to make any false accusations against any posters who may have been guilty of speaking LH about her by saying that she is definitely Jewish when I don’t know that definitively.

    But I appreciate your letting me know that you think there may a LH issue. You could be right.

    I didn’t know that it was so clear-cut that her conversion is kosher and that everyone accepts it. If that is so, then I retroactively retract the words “possibly” from my above post.

    #1212371

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Even if we do disagree, it doesn’t reflect on Jared and Ivanka, it reflects on the Rabbi who gave the psak! If they had decided for themselves, I can see where they’d be wrong, but they asked the question. Isn’t that what they’re supposed to do?”

    DY: “You are responsible for choosing to whom you ask your shailas.”

    True, but many people don’t know better. Someone who had a different chinuch than you and grew up with certain Rabbis/types of Rabbis has no way of knowing that his Rabbi is not reliable. (I’m not saying that the Rabbi in question is not reliable. I don’t know enough to know one way or another. I am simply being melamed zchus on the Kushners for their choice of Rabbi.)

    #1212372

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “if someone publicly violates Halacha, knowingly or unknowingly, shouldn’t there be some public outcry to set things straight so that everyone knows it’s not allowed?”

    MW13: “I don’t think anybody here considers Ivanka Trump the arbitrator of what is or is not Halachicly permissible. So even if she did rely on an eyebrow-raising heter, I’m not convinced that it’s necessary to publicly denounce her actions.”

    +1.

    #1212373

    lesschumras
    Participant

    How come this topic isn’t lashon harah? It’s all speculation and none of your business

    #1212374

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    lesschumras – + 1 million

    #1212375

    Avi K
    Participant

    Regarding Ivanka’s conversion, if when she went into the mikva she intended to keep everything she is Jewish. That is halacha pesuka. As Rabbi Lookstein followed the RCA’s GPS there should not be a question.

    Regarding going to the church, I heard that the prohibition is marit ayin. As the Kushners were conspicuously not holding prayer sheets and this was even noted by a reporter that might not be a problem. Moreover, Chazal relaxed the rules in this area for people who are karove lamalchut. Of course, the armchair poskim can say that one does not have to be karove lamalchut. They can even denigrate talmidei chachamim. However, they should remember a few things:

    One who denigrates Torah scholars is defined as a heretic, who has no portion in the World to Come (Sanhedrin 99b).

    Jerusalem was only destroyed because of denigration of Torah scholars (Rambam, Hilchos Talmud Torah, Chapter 6).

    Anyone who denigrates a talmid chacham has no cure for his malady (Shabbos 119b) – and there are many different interpretations of exactly what that “malady” is.

    #1212376

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Zahavasdad (sorry I couldn’t reply earlier)

    Inaugural Balls are not a minhag medinah, but a minhag of the particular President, and scheduled at his whim. There is no requirement to hold the ‘official’ inaugural ball the nigt of the swearing in (or to even have one).

    “The first Inaugural Ball (for George Washington) was held a week after the Inauguration. Presidents have cancelled inaugural balls for various reasons. Franklin Pierce, who was mourning the recent death of his son in 1853, Woodrow Wilson, who in 1913 felt that inaugural balls were too expensive, and Warren G. Harding, who in 1921 wanted to set an example of simplicity, all opted to end the custom of inaugural balls. Private parties known as “charity balls”, were held during the second inauguration of Calvin Coolidge in 1925, for Herbert Hoover in 1929, and especially during the depression and World War II era inaugurations of Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1933, 1937, 1941, and 1945.”

    The new President could have chosen any date he wanted for the ball (from January 20th on) or no ball at all.

    #1212378

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    How come this topic isn’t lashon harah? It’s all speculation and none of your business

    When Shabbos is publicly desecrated, I think it is a mitzvah to voice one’s opposition.

    #1212379

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “How come this topic isn’t lashon harah? It’s all speculation and none of your business”

    DY: “When Shabbos is publicly desecrated, I think it is a mitzvah to voice one’s opposition.”

    That’s not something that you can posken on your own. Ask a reliable Poseik if: 1. there is definite chilul Shabbos here. 2. It’s a Mitvah to be posting in the CR about it.

    #1212380

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    DY

    In their defense other than Ivdu D’chol and assuming that had a heter for the secret service to drive them (Which is a real possibility) they did not seem to desecrate shabbos. The whole events have photographed so if they did do actual melcha, someone would have likely seen it

    Even the church attendence. they did not hold the prayer sheets (as noted by newspeople) and did not pray with the other people

    #1212381

    yehudayona
    Participant

    lightbrite asked about a Jewish president being inaugurated on Friday and CTL pointed out that Friday at noon isn’t Shabbos. But what about January 20 falling on Shabbos (as it will in 2029)? Maybe there would be a private swearing in like there was for LBJ.

    #1212382

    Joseph
    Participant

    It’s strictly prohibited to even ENTER a beis avoda zora, even IF they weren’t worshipping the avoda zora.

    #1212384

    squeak
    Participant

    They should have insisted on being driven in a Tesla chutsh to avoid d’oraisahs

    #1212385

    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    Yehudayona……….

    The President assumes office at noon on January 20th (or a VP becomes President upon the vacancy of the office ala LBJ). The oath taking need not take place immediately, it is tradition to have taken place on March 3 until the date was changed by Constitutional amendment to January 20. A new President could assume all powers at noon and have his oath administered .

    I don’t know that there is a halachic problem with being sworn in on Shabbos, trhe President doesn’t have to sign anything, and doesn’t have to speak into a microphone. These are added trappings, not requirements.

    #1212386

    Avi K
    Participant

    DY, by voicing one’s opinion against a pesak someone received one risks being exposed a someone who does not know the diference between an alef and a swastika.

    Lilmod, it is prohibited as LH to go straight to a public outcry. First you have to speak to the individual privately. In this case the Committee to Find Blemishes in Others (to use Rav Aviner’s term) is second-guessing the Secret Service, who know their business (and anyone with even a modicum of intelligence who saw the videos of what went on in the streets knows that they were right) and the rav who paskened.

    Joseph, as it is a rabbinic prohibition there is flexibility. There are many heterim for someone who is karove lamalchut. A certain jailer who concealed his Jewishness so that he could save Jews was deemed by Eliahu to be worthy of Olam HaBa, according to the commentators without having to first go through Gehinnom (Taanit 22a). Presumably he had to go to the local bet a”z to keep up his disguise.

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