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What is the problem with eating at someones house with teenage girls? If you sit on opposiite sides what could be the problem? Also with this whole shidduch crisis” maybe we should start encouraging it?? Ive started it at my own house….anyone want to start the trend also??
What is the problem with eating at someones house with teenage girls
Never heard of it. Have heard of the problem with eating someones house, or the problem with eating teenage girls.
People are friends not food.
Also with this whole shidduch crisis” maybe we should start encouraging it??
There are plenty of frum singles events. That is not the problem. And I’m not sure teenage marriage is a good solution either.
When i was in israel, every out shabbat we used to eat at peoples houses who also have teenage daughters. I personally dont have anything against that and i totally agree that it can help the shidduch world. I tried it myself
its a good idea,, i used to do that
Corey,
My mashgiach feels the same way
My personal opinion though is that the bachur will have taavos though even if the shidduch isn’t shaayich
Who/What indicated that it was a problem?
Is the question about eating at someone’s house, and the host family has teenage girls? Or, is the question about the guest family bringing teenage girls? Which is it? Is it both? What about if both the host family and the guest family have teenage girls?
very bad. sure if youre the style house that would encourage opposite gender socialising then what was ure shaylah? eluh maiy, you think theres a problem. its not tznius. the guys are noticing the girls the whole time, a vice versa. dont kid yourself.
Its beyond the comfort zone of most teenagers. We put up mechitzos at dinners and other events to avoid the mingling which is precisely what is happening when strange girls and guys eat at the same meal on shabbos. In Eretz Yisroel it is inexcusable – if you want to have both over it should be one meal for boys and one for girls. If you have teenaged daughters you might want to rethink inviting boys.
What ever made you think that there is a problem, is exactly the reason why.
If you sit on opposiite sides what could be the problem?
What does which side of the table have to do with anything?
I have never heard of such a thing, though I guess I should have. It felt ridiculous at first, but if you avoid teenagers ever seeing someone of the opposite gender (especially when they’re too young to date) I see no reason why a Shabbos meal would be different. Still, I can’t see how this wouldn’t destroy communities if no families would ever eat with each other once they have kids of the opposite gender.
What is the connection between teenagers and shidduchim? Are you advocating something new?
Yes Hachnosos orchim is only meant for one gender families and only for one gender guests. Unless of course you have a huge house with two dining rooms in which case you can split the genders into two rooms and you have two entrances one for males and one for females.
In such a case the host family has a specific schedule where the males and females of the family take turns entering the kitchen to get the food to serve in their individual dining rooms. The host father goes into the Women’s dining room to make kiddush. After that the doors are closed so the women can sing zmiros and give d’var torah where the men can’t hear. The men of course conduct their own seudah without the ability to hear or see or be tempted by any female. Hakol B’seder.
Of course it’s a tznius issue. As popa points out, it also wouldn’t be to any practical purpose. This has been suggested in the CR before, and it’s no smarter now that it’s in a different thread. I answered in more detail in this post.
aries:
Really? If people are doing this, and they are doing it for a proper motive, why would you make fun?
I have heard from numerous rabbanim that it is completely assur and thats if families want to eat over at each others they should farm away either the boys of girls…Really people havaent heard of this???
I have. It’s based on a pretty straightforward halacha in Shulchan Aruch.
corey: no I haven’t. Then again, not too many families that I know are still eating out meals when their kids reach teen-age. Close friends, the kids usually know each other already anyway.
PBA, Hashem blessed families with both genders for a very good reason. There is nothing wrong for families to have a Shabbos meal together and I will follow that with it is no one else’s business. It would be up to the individual parents to decide whether or not all their children should join or not. In many cases these families were raised together and the girls are friends and the boys are friends or they are as close as family.
On the other hand, there are many families who invite bochurim from their local yeshiva dorms for Shabbos meals as well. Many Rebbeim invite bochurim home for meals. I have never heard that Rebbeim that ONLY have boys invite bochurim home for shabbos meals or Oneg Shabbos. I have never heard that Rebbeim lock their daughters in the Attic when their bochurim visit either. It is very difficult for families to have so many guests and for Rebbeim to do this if they don’t have daughters at home to help their wives.
I live in a community where Hochnosos Orchim is a huge part of our community. I find this a little over the top.
Well, if you must know, I find it a little over the top that you think my tznius standards, as expressly expressed by my roshei yeshiva have to bend to your hachnosas orchim standards.
DaasYochid-
Does the Shulchan Aruch prohibit a family that has boys and girls children from having ANY guests? Or is it only applicable if the guests are unmarried? Or are married guests prohibited too? And does it matter how old the hosts children are? If so, what ages?
Thanks
While I haven’t really seen such a thing, it doesn’t surprise at all, since in some circles the idea of having any correspondence between boys and girls is considered the worst thing ever. So of course, that would include this. I think for people that have been brought up that way, it may be problematic since they would have no idea how to act, or interact, with the opposite sex, which can result pretty badly. But for people that have been brought being used to corresponding with both boys and girls, having a shabbos meal with each other would be considered perfectly normal, and a wonderful thing.
But even for people of the former group, perhaps they should have such arrangements at meals anyway, so they will become better at properly acting and interacting with the opposite sex, which is something they’ll have to do anyway when they begin dating, and more importantly, when they have a spouse.
stamamen,
The S.A. doesn’t give specifics, he says that when it comes to separation, we need to be very, very (???, ???) careful.
PBA, really? Where did I criticize YOU and YOUR tznius standards? Please show me. I don’t want to go through another round with you as in the past. You asked me a question and I responded. If you take offense, sorry, but I did NOT respond to you, your Rosh Yeshiva or anything personally having to do with you.
aries – Well maybe thats because you were never a bochur. Yes, RY and Rabbeim will not let bochurim go to places that have tennage girls. It is not a hard concept to comprehend. Why does the mitzvah of hachnosas orchim have to be mevatel the lav of arayos?
aries: Ok, I’m sorry. I was mistaken.
I thought when you called it “over the top”, you were criticizing me for doing it. I see now that you only meant that you personally think it is not correct hashkafa, but are respectful of those who do consider it correct hashkafa.
For those who think it’s a good idea for girls and boys of marriageable age to sit at a Shabbos table together to learn how to talk to members of the opposite gender, do you know anybody who would research their Shabbos guests like they do shidduchium that are redt to their children? Who knows if they are suitable. Should they find out only after their emotions get involved?
As a single girl (but much older than average) I ate at many houses when living in Yerushalayim before I got married. There were families that stopped inviting me once they had boys who were old enough that they considered it to be too big a challenge for them to be at a table with a single woman, and I was at other families that kept inviting me but had a very long table, and I sat at 1 end, with all of their unmarried girls and married daughters in between. I never really saw them during the meal, but who’s to say that they weren’t looking my way? Can’t say for sure. Not all parents want to risk it.
when we have boys over the older girls sit on the same side of the table as them just not right next to them. my brother sits in between them
this way they dont stare at them whole meal
Aries, your post about Hakol B’seder is hilarious.
Boys and girls at the same Shabbes table, Lo B’seder!
Moreover, I’ve heard of takanos from Rabbi Moskovits from Midrash Shmuel that (young) couples should not invite each other for Shabbes meals. It causes shalom bayis problems. Some women cook gourmet food, whilst others make simple food, some men give profound divrei Torah, whilst others are not so gifted, some men sing beautiful zmiros, whilst others sing boring tunes. These eye-openers are no good.
That is absolutely ridiculous. Someone should be happy with their spouse and know that they have different Yisronos and different Chesronos than everyone else. Let’s Assur ever being nice to each other because we can come up with some ridiculous problem that could come out of that. Let’s Assur all human interaction. No Arayos, no Lashon Hara, no problems.
“Yes, RY and Rabbeim will not let bochurim go to places that have tennage girls”
Interesting….I was an invited guest at the home of my RY and many Rabbeim, all who had teenaged daughters present at the table.
As for young couples inviting each other…my Rabbeim stressed the importance of the different families in the kollel to be close and encouraged the families to invite each other for meals.
I suppose individual circumstances vary and each family/couple must use their seichel when inviting company.
(Perhaps things were different when I was a teenager/newly married 15-20 years ago.)
Goldie,
that’s an excellent idea
from when i was in 12 grade (about 17-18) there were certain families i told my parents i would not go to because they had boys my age there and slightly older. atleast 2x we were invited i had ‘other plans’. both times i went to close friends, one of which also had bachrim. so whats the dif? the first family has boys not so yeshivish and i didnt feel comfortable near them. by contrast my friend’s brothers i knew would ignore me as i would ignore them. problem solved.
(since then i have grown up and i have gone to this family when the sons are there. they have become self absorbed and thus, ignore me.)
so to say its families that do it, it might be the daughter with a sensitivity
(disclaimer: this is ME and MY opinions, not based on anything)
moi aussi, I agree. Men should lsten to the R”Y they are close to and trust. But that doesn’t mean that everyone has to listen to YOUR or HIS R”Y. Obviously many Roshei Yeshivas as well as many Rabbonim in general have varied opinions on various issues.
apy – No where in my post did it say anything about eating at the RY’s or Rebbi’s house. I only mentioned what they said about eating at others.
Every one is entitled to behave according to their own comfort level and should be respected.
In my opinion, having teenage boys and girls from different families at the same table is a wonderful thing and should be encouraged.
Sam2, in the Chassidishe velt, men and women don’t interact socially EVER. Are they all ridiculous? Interaction includes respecting other people’s minhagim/hashkafot.
You’re right that isolation from society is not required, but doing things lifnim meshuras hadin deserves recognition.
aries, was I imposing anything on anyone? I mentioned that I heard a takana from a R”Y. He’s not mine. We don’t know each other’s genders, so don’t assume anything.
“That is absolutely ridiculous. Someone should be happy with their spouse and know that they have different Yisronos and different Chesronos than everyone else.”
Sam2: Here in E”Y it is common for young couples to invite each other for meals. It is a problem and does cause sholom bayis issues.
Your comment is true for couples who have been married longer.
Freshly married couples do not have that certainty.
Sam2,
That is absolutely ridiculous. Someone should be happy with their spouse and know that they have different Yisronos and different Chesronos than everyone else.
You’re confusing idealism with pragmatism. Of course it would be ideal for everyone to be sameach b’chelko, but we should, on a practical, level deal with the frailties of human nature.
The yetzer horah doesn’t work with cold logic alone.
I think Yisro told his daughters ???? ?? ????? ???, to invite Moshe Rabbeinu for a meal.
Disclaimer: He had other ideas in mind!!!
“No where in my post did it say anything about eating at the RY’s or Rebbi’s house.”
Are their teenaged daughters somehow different?
moi aussi, I was agreeing with you. I didn’t mean “your” as a personal “you”. I meant it as a general “your, mine, his, her”. I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear.
apy – Yes. Maybe they can run the show differently and be more in control, than some stranger who wouldn’t mind…
I think Yisro told his daughters ???? ?? ????? ???, to invite Moshe Rabbeinu for a meal.
Does it say they ate at the same table?
“No where in my post did it say anything about eating at the RY’s or Rebbi’s house.” (r-b)
Are their teenaged daughters somehow different? (apy)
He knows whether they are or not.
Don’t forget, the OP was suggesting mixed meals to encourage socializing. If a particular father knows his children, and his guests, and determines that they will avoid interaction, that’s an entirely different matter.
Your grasping at straws here.
the reason it is ussually not a problem to eat at a Rebbis house even if he has teenage girls is because most probobly nothing would happen seeing as your Rebbe is sittting at the same table as you unless you have no Yirah of your Rebbe- that should be worked on
it is preferable to sit on the same side aof the table as the girls with your sisters in between because if there across from you, youll be looking at them
although i do not Pasken if indeed someones Rav told them it is assur then they cant really have their own opinion beacause its assur
encouraging a possible issur is crazy and before encouraging it ask your Rav what he thinks
theres no being liberal with halacha
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