October 4, 2011 4:06 pm at 4:06 pm #815245
After World War II many jews wanted to come to the US. People were only allowed if they had a sponsor (Like a Relative) Many did not have relatives or sponsors so sponsors had to be solicited.
Religious people were rare in those days and many more frum people wanted to come to the US than sponsors available.
So an appeal was needed to conservative and reform people to sponsor survivors and they did come throughOctober 4, 2011 5:06 pm at 5:06 pm #815247
Many “Conservative”s are completely Shomer Halacha
No, they aren’t. That was a very ignorant statement.October 4, 2011 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #815248
Fine, I should have said almost completely. And by many I didn’t necessarily mean a large percentage but there is a decent number.October 5, 2011 12:56 am at 12:56 am #815251
I’m responding to the previous post about how the perushim went to the beis hamikdosh even when the tzedukim were in charge.
The mishna says they used to stone the tzeduki kohanim with their esrogim if they did the avoda wrong.October 5, 2011 1:26 am at 1:26 am #815252
Toi: Get your facts straight. You are talking about the Union Prayer Book (reform) not the Sim Shalom Prayerbook (Conservative).
popa: Yet everyone trusted Tzeduki shechita.October 5, 2011 1:38 am at 1:38 am #815253
That is because the halacha was to trust tzeduki shechita. So what? We trust conservative for anything the halacha is to trust them on (nothing).October 5, 2011 1:56 am at 1:56 am #815254
I think his point is that there is little logical reason to differentiate between a Tzeduki and a Conservative for this.October 5, 2011 2:10 am at 2:10 am #815255
Halacha recognizes neither the conservative nor reform movements. A shomer shabbos who pays dues to a Conservative Temple or a reconstructionist pine grove is trusted for everything for which halacha trusts a shomer shabbos who davens in a shtible that doesn’t even have membership.
Re the halacha being to trust tzeduki shechita: what changed? We no longer trust shechita of people with those de’os.October 5, 2011 2:12 am at 2:12 am #815256
I think his point is that there is little logical reason to differentiate between a Tzeduki and a Conservative for this.
You mean for shechita?
That is ridiculous. The tzedukim believed they were required to shecht the same way we do it. The conservative don’t. So that is a pretty good reason to differentiate.
Re the halacha being to trust tzeduki shechita: what changed? We no longer trust shechita of people with those de’os.
They changed. The ones who still “hold” of that deah are a bunch of kookoos.October 5, 2011 2:49 am at 2:49 am #815257
1- AFAIK the conservative Committee has not touched shechita yet. I do recall reading something about bedikas hareiah but I don’t know enough to say. If you want to talk fact instead of boich, every single decision of the Conservative Committee on Jewish Law and Standards is public record. You can email them and ask what they hold about shechita.
2- How are they any crazier than the originals? I understand the karaites being worse because of the other nonsense they tacked onto it, but why do you dismiss today’s chevra so easily?October 5, 2011 2:56 am at 2:56 am #815258
How are they any crazier than the originals? I understand the karaites being worse because of the other nonsense they tacked onto it, but why do you dismiss today’s chevra so easily?
I thought you were talking about the karaites. Who are you talking about?
AFAIK the conservative Committee has not touched shechita yet. You can email them and ask what they hold about shechita.
Good, so email them and ask if they hold that every jew is required to only eat properly shechted meat. And while you’re at it, if they hold of all the rema’s chumros of shehiya bmiut basra, and the rest.
I am aware there are conservative jews who won’t eat non kosher meat, but that is way different from the tzedukim where the entire movement actually had uniform standards, which they held were incumbent. (And like I say, I doubt any conservative jew if shechting himself would be makpid on shehiya b’miut basra.)October 5, 2011 3:00 am at 3:00 am #815259gezuntheitMember
Their committee’s positions are practically meaningless since the people don’t adhere to them in any event, as a practical matter. Even IF they, in theory, have a correct kashrus standard on paper.October 5, 2011 11:37 am at 11:37 am #815260
A practicing member of the con-servative offshoot of Judaism is a mumar lehachis and a koifer beikar in most cases (most of their clergy certainly are.) In addition, their definition of shomer mitzvos has little to do with proper halocho.
Having grown up in that withered branch’s institutions, I would sooner accept the shechita of a j4j or one of the five or ten mental institution candidates who proclaim that the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZYA is even more than Moshiach over that of a con-servative shochet (none of whom exist anyway). My high school principal was a practitioner of the con-servative faith and he had an indoctrination class for us in senior year in which he taught us kefira mamash as a supposed guard against assimilation and inter-dating in college. Yeah, right. Had I listened to him I DAVKA would have intermarried because he basically taught us the “man-made but divinely inspired” and “tikkun golem” bubbamaises.
The debatable “fact” that some people who davened in those institutions supposedly showed some chessed to frum immigrants (probably true as they did not know the beliefs of anyone they were sponsoring and they sponsored as many socialists and communists as they did frum people, never mind that in those days you just went to whatever shul was closest or in style regardless of its affiliaiton and few of those people knew what the movements even stood for) does not change the nature of these movements. Far more frum activists, like the leaders and volunteers for chessed organizations in EY and Chabad shluchim, stick their necks out and give all they have for largely unappreciative, often literally parasitic and contemptuous, frei Jews (most of whom, especially outside of EY, know no better but also won’t pass up a freebie when they need one) than the other way around.
What is known is that once the refugees arrived, those institutions and movements put a lot of pressure on the frum ones to assimilate. BH most held steady and ended up rekindling the flame of Torah in the United States.October 5, 2011 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #815261
itch- i dont particularly care. antitorah judaism all together. antig-d,too.October 5, 2011 1:01 pm at 1:01 pm #815262minyan galMember
PBA, thank you for your comments. I will not debate this issue again. All that I will say is that I study Torah and other Judaic topics, attend morning minyan almost daily, light candles every Friday and attend Shabbat services 52/52. For me, that suffices.October 5, 2011 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #815263
You’re not seriously suggesting that a person who keeps halacha in a manner that would be completely acceptable in most frum communities, but davens at a conservative temple because he finds gender separation to be immoral is a mumar l’hachas (and I grew up around several such people), are you?October 5, 2011 3:30 pm at 3:30 pm #815264
I would certainly say there is no neemanus by him and I would not accept him for eidus or anything else. I would not let him touch any non-mevushal wine in my reshus or drink from a bottle that he poured from.
If anything, he is a koifer beikar and mumar lehachis of the first order – he is saying the Torah is immoral and is kovea Torah laitim instead of kovea itim laTorah. He is also davening in a moshav leitzim, but that is beside the point.
I knew one such person as well, but his standards were very low, somewhere around what just may be accepted at Chovelei Torah (or in the unfortunate Jewish world of the 1930’s to 1950’s) but nowhere else.October 5, 2011 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #815265shlishiMember
because he finds gender separation to be immoral
me2: And what if he eats non-kosher meat because he “finds shechita to be immoral and inhumane” and would rather eat animals that were stunned.October 5, 2011 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #815266
If anything, that person is pretty clearly a mumar l’taiavon, I’d say, I’m not sure why you’re suggesting otherwise and seriously would appreciate clarification.
I guess the same thing applies to meat, although in that case, the person’s refusal to be a vegetarian instead would make me wonder about the possibility of ulterior motives that actually were l’hachas.October 5, 2011 3:58 pm at 3:58 pm #815267
600: Strong words when misapplied make them weaker when they really matter. To be a Mumar Lehach’is you would actually have to be Over some sort of Lav. Tell me what this person is necessarily Over. And why does that make someone a Kofer B’ikar? Do you know what the words Kofer B’ikar mean?October 5, 2011 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #815268
when i was in college i practiced zen-baddhism extensively.
i found it to be very rewarding, challenging, and spiritually satisfying.
i progressed in spiritual growth and “finding myself”
im sure avodah zarah was equally meaninful to those that practiced it.
xtianity looked pretty good too, very peaceful and friendly, i never got the chance to look into it though.October 5, 2011 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #815269
“zen-baddhism” Love it! You could also refer to the getschke as Buddhu. That means idiot in Hindi.October 5, 2011 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #815270mikehall12382Member
minyan gal…you don’t need to explain a thing…and good for you!
I will add that Conservative movement in Canada is much closer aligned with orthodoxy, in Canada then the US…There is a big difference between the two countries….October 5, 2011 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #815271
Sam, I know that movement inside and out and there are no excuses that can be made for it. You cannot imagine what I was taught in the guise of Torah. It is kefira and those who practice it and believe in its doctrines are mumarim.
It is based on Torah NOT being from Sinai chas vesholom. End of story.
con-servative is like Solomon Dwek – it appears frum if you don’t look into it and accept what it tells you about itself at face value, but once you get to know what it really is, or once you have been fooled by it, you know it is chozzer treyf and of no value.October 5, 2011 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #815273
After World War II many jews..
Zahavasdad, I don’t care if I am embarrassing you in public. Learn and learn FAST to capitalize the words Jew and Jews. It is not the first time I have seen this error in your posts and it reeks of subconscious self-deprecation (actually Jewish anti-Semitism) because it is usually an error I see made deliberately by anti-Semites including Churban deniers. I don’t care if you’re dyslexic either, because you manage to capitalize other words.
Re’eh. Huzharta.October 5, 2011 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #815274Boro Park MenschParticipant
Mod-80, You went to college?????October 5, 2011 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #815275
600: I will leave it at saying that we obviously know different Conservative people. I have met several who are completely Shomer Halacha and believe in Torah Min Hashamayim. You obviously haven’t.October 5, 2011 4:37 pm at 4:37 pm #815276
unfortunatelyOctober 5, 2011 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #815277
Where did you go?
I have a B.E. (breaking and entry) degree from the Ossining Institute of Advanced Correctional Study, better known as Sing Sing.October 5, 2011 4:44 pm at 4:44 pm #815278shlishiMember
Sam: When popa challenged you on that point above, you conceded his point and modified your assertion.October 5, 2011 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #815279
I’m now completely confused about your argument. Are you trying to say that Conservative Jews are mumrim l’hachas because whatever they seem to believe outwardly, inwardly they believe something else? Because I’ll admit not knowing too many of them, but that seems pretty obviously wrong. Or are you suggesting that their doctrine lacks depth (that it might look nice, but it’s rooted on a faulty basis), because of course I agree with that (after all, I am not Conservative), but don’t see how that would make someone who does believe in that faulty basis a mumar l’hachas.October 5, 2011 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #815280
Whatever you were doing while practicing Zen, you weren’t doing it to anger Hashem right? (You can correct me here, but I’m pretty sure the idea of practicing Zen l’hachas is actually a contradiction in terms.) Committing an aveirah because you find it “very rewarding, challenging, and spiritually satisfying” is the definition of not being l’hachas.October 5, 2011 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #815281
so you have met several conservative people who are completely shomer Halacha. i guess they are rebels then to defy the conservative movement as a whole like that.
wow you must be REALLY friendly with a lot of people. you ask them questions about Taras Mishpacha? and you watch to see what they do when a milchig fork falls int a bowl of chicken soup? well, assuming you know they have two sets of silverware that is. i guess you eat at their homes then. im sure most Poskim would approve of that.
i happen to know many reform and reconstructionist people who are also completely shomer Halacha as well. i know thats hard to believe but its true, i know them! perhaps ill become reform too, why not, if you can be reform or conservative and be completely shomer Halacha.
i just wanted everyone here to know about this so they will stop criticizing the other two branches of Judaism.
were all the same you know, love Hashem, ignore Hashem, seek to do His will as He has commanded us, or just to be good people and ignore what we dont agree with. its all the same really, as long as we are nice people and have a good gefilte fish recipe.October 5, 2011 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #815282
i promised myself i would not expose myself to these kinds of attitudes during this time of the year, i tried but its difficult.
ill try again though.
goodbye for now.October 5, 2011 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #815283
I am not saying that it is okay or safe to assume that the average Conservative person is Shomer Halacha. Of course not. I would say that because it is a vast majority that someone (most places, I can only speak for what I have seen) who Davens at a Conservative synagogue does not have a Chezkas Kashrus. What I am pointing out is that statements like 600’s that anyone anywhere who goes to a Consevative synagogue is a Mumar Lehachis and a Kofer B’ikar is just wrong.October 5, 2011 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #815285
Why would someone say unfortunatly that they went to college?October 5, 2011 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #815286
Why would someone say unfortunatly that they went to college?
they wouldnt, someone who went to college would probably say: “unfortunately”October 5, 2011 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #815287
Shlishi: Correct. The word “many” probably implied more than actually exist. I can confidently say “not all” though.October 5, 2011 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #815288
In the wikipedia entry for Spell Checker and Grammar Checker there is a Big picture of me saying it was invented for this personOctober 5, 2011 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #815289
mike- i find your condonement/endorsement/policy of appeasement appalling. i live in toronto, and i live next door -literally- to the biggest conserative congregation in Canada. they drive on shabbos, talk on cell phones outside on shabbos, dress like who knows what, etc. Their succah is kosher yay! it in no way bares a likeness to regular torah-keeping Jews. And i also take issue with minimizing the damage they do to real yiddishkeit. me LaShem elay, anyone?October 5, 2011 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #815290
Spell Checker and Grammar Checker
And why are these capitalized and Jew not capitalized? Either you use a new checker that was programmed by Lipa Schmeltzer on Peerim or you’re just making excuses for some deep-seated self-hatred. Your posts make me suspect the latter – that you would rather be frei or even a non-Jew but you’re stuck for social reasons.October 5, 2011 10:38 pm at 10:38 pm #815291
What I am pointing out is that statements like 600’s that anyone anywhere who goes to a Consevative synagogue is a Mumar Lehachis and a Kofer B’ikar is just wrong.
There are always exceptions that prove the rule, such as the lone frum Jew in a small town, stuck there for professional reasons, who goes to whatever shul is there because he doesn’t want to be alone on Shabbos (and BH Chabad is moving into those small communities so in another generation that won’t be an issue anywhere in the US). Such people usually send their children far, far away for chinuch at some point and they are usually the last generation to live in that town (unless their children are the ones who encourage Chabad or perhaps SEED/Ner leElef to come back with them and start a community.)
However, I have experience with this religion called con-servative and I know that its adherents do not believe in many of the 13 ikkarei ha-emunah.
That makes them koifrim be’ikar and those who know there is a real Jewish alternative are mumarim lehachis.October 6, 2011 6:06 am at 6:06 am #815292Boro Park MenschParticipant
Mod 80, Why would that be “unfortunate?” It allowed you to go to medical school and add one more frum doctor to the community.
Can I presume correctly that while in yeshiva, this was the explanation you gave to your rav?October 6, 2011 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #815293
Mod 80, Why would that be “unfortunate?” It allowed you to go to medical school and add one more frum doctor to the community.
Can I presume correctly that while in yeshiva, this was the explanation you gave to your rav?
If I wanted to go to medical school, I would tell my rav why I wanted to go. I wouldn’t make up stupid reasons.
I’m also not sure I would ask a rav. Unless I had some shaila about it. Whether or not to go, in a vacuum, seems like it would just be my personal preference and career ambitions.October 6, 2011 2:10 pm at 2:10 pm #815294soliekMember
heres where im confused. why the conservative apologetics?! i mean for goodness sake! look at how they started. i dont care how l’shem shamayim it was (or at least according to the guy who started it) its WRONG. since its inception it has been wrong. especially now that its become more of a political statement than a religious identity (much in the same way that reform has). “i dont think of X as moral…i dont think hashem would have wanted that so lets change it” really. but…hashem just said not to…whatever…
all of you who are defending conservative judaism in this thread are pulling wild yotzim min haklal out of a borsalino and saying “oh please go easy on conserative…they have one or two tzaddikim in s’dom” shkoyach. i know a conservative girl who just married a goy. her parents pray in a conservative temple and she married a goy. why? not because of some rebellious nature thing…but because her parents didnt give a blasted darn about who she dated or fooled around with as long as she didnt do the deed until she married (which is a sham anyway). so is it any surprise that she married a goy? the parents are gonna pay for the wedding because “whatever makes their daughter happy.” you know whos crying and reissing kriya? the grandparents who are orthodox.
the conservative movement started on the premise that “oy siz shver tzu zein a yid so lets make it easier.” STOP! i dont care what you think you know about halacha and hashkafah or anything torah related. just look at how it started. ITS FLAWED!!! es laasos lahashem hefiru torasecha obviously isnt true because orthodox judaism is doing WAY better than conservative judaism. fine. so you have a guy who started an “oy siz shver tzu zein a yid” chassidus. shkoyach. fine. fast forward a hundred years and look at conservative now! they have a rabbinate! and yeshivos! and HASHKAFAH!!! BASED ON WHAT?! ON OY SIZ SHVER TZU ZEIN A YID?! AND PEOPLE HERE ARE DEFENDING IT?!
i dont care how shomer torah umitzvos you say you are. i sont care how much tzedaka you give. i dont care how many times you toivel in the mikveh or are megalgel b’sheleg or whatever you think you should do to make yourself frummer…if you identify as a conservative jew you are identifying with a movement which says every single second of the day since its inception “the torah is too hard for me therefore i dont follow it” and im sorry but there is no “only” for a mumar l’teavon.
“but theyre good people” so are muslims…why dont you become one.
as far as im concerned there is no dan lekaf zechus where conservative is concerned. the only possible thing to be said about this generation of conservative jews is “tinok shenishba” but once someone is made aware that their form of judaism is flawed and why…i have problems accepting any excuses.October 6, 2011 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #815295
“the torah is too hard for me therefore i dont follow it”
no, its much worse than that,
its: “”the torah is too hard for me therefore i have no obligation or Command to follow it”October 6, 2011 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #815296soliekMember
well now maybe…i was referring to how it started. but yes you do have a point.October 6, 2011 2:49 pm at 2:49 pm #815297
Because it’s bad to believe negative things about people that aren’t true. Especially if you disagree with them. Especially if your disagreements are legitimate.
This statement:”the torah is too hard for me therefore i have no obligation or Command to follow it” does not reflect the doctrine of a single Conservative person I’m aware of.October 6, 2011 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #815298
I want to be very clear: I am in no way, shape, or form defending the Conservative movement. I am defending those people associated with it (for whatever reasons) who are probably more Orthodox than Conservative anyway and are just involved in a Conservative community/go to a Conservative synagogue.October 6, 2011 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #815300
sam2- why are you defending these people. what point are you defending them on?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.