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“This statement:”the torah is too hard for me therefore i have no obligation or Command to follow it” does not reflect the doctrine of a single Conservative person I’m aware of.”
thats the basis of the movement with which they identify. so not only are they wrong…but they dont even know what theyre wrong about.
so what IS their doctrine…eh?
“I am defending those people associated with it (for whatever reasons) who are probably more Orthodox than Conservative anyway and are just involved in a Conservative community/go to a Conservative synagogue.”
i have problems with that. theres no more or less. you either identify with orthodox or you dont. theres no in between. and the only possible justifiable reason to ever go to a conservative temple is if there legitimately is no other alternative and even that is questionable.
as far as im concerned there is no justification at all for conservative judaism whatsoever.
toi
to defend sam2 for a change,
he has made exactly what he is saying very clear, especially in his last post.
If the mods will let it through, I will give two examples.
1. A woman I know of is extremely learned and wanted to give back to the community. She wanted to start giving a women-only Shiur for the women of her community. Because she offered that, she and her family were for many purposes ostracized from her community. So she joined a Conservative synagogue where she happily teaches Torah to the community.
2. A woman was an only child and wanted to say Kaddish for one of her parents (don’t remember which). Her Shul wouldn’t let her, so she started Davening at a Conservative place where she could say Kaddish. She liked the community and stayed with the synagogue even after a year.
I know these families and they are 100% Shomer Torah Umitzvos (aside from Davening at a Conservative synagogue, obviously). I have a very hard time finding fault with people like this. They might be a small minority, but my point is that they do exist.
sam2 is defending a straw man. Literally – he is defending the old man in a straw hat who sits in the corner of his conservative tembel because he can’t sell the shoe store his father started in Yehupitzville, his real estate is not quite ready for him to sell to a developer (or he’s waiting for his sons to finish their law degrees or MBA’s so he can leave it to them to develop) and Chabad hasn’t sent a shaliach yet. There must be 20 minyonim of such people in the whole US.
The con-servative belief, as I learned in in Solomon Schechted for 5 years is:
The Torah conflicts with what modern science and history have determined is true. We prefer modern science and history because we don’t know much about Torah and don’t want to learn, so it’s easier to learn “higher biblical criticism.” We also don’t want to be too Jewish, you know, or to put Torah ahead of enjoying life and left-wing politics, so we’ll bend it just about until it breaks chas vesholom. We’re really deformed, but with just enough tradition to fool people who at least want to feel Jewish once a week in the morning and on holidays before they go to the mall.”
If anything, it is worse than deformed. A child knows deformed is not Judaism, but a tinok shenishba can truly be conned by con-servative.
Sam, those people are kovea Torah laitim. I would not eat at either of their homes or let them touch my wine. The real shuls are at fault for letting this happen (or at least the first scenario – something sounds fishy as in every normal community such a woman is very much looked up to and encouraged), too, but 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
I think even MO rabbonim make it very clear that you are better off staying at home rather than walking into a con-servative or deformed tembel.
Rav Moshe writes the Conservative movement is apikorsus, and it is assur to even go into their temple.
Sam: Your stories don’t make sense.
Going to a conservative shul is like going to a church. Someone who would go to a conservative shul because she wants to give a women’s shiur, is not normal. (Plenty of women give shiurim to women- this story makes no sense anyway. ????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ???).
Likewise for saying kaddish. While I empathize with a woman who does not have a brother to say kaddish for her parents, going to a conservative shul over it is just strange.
This woman was giving a Gemara Shiur, not Nach or Halacha. And I am not defending the action of even going to the Conservative synagogue. I just think that it doesn’t Passul the person.
By the way, Sam2’s stories reflect how every kefira, from notzrus and essenes to deformed, got started. Some malcontents got upset at an organized kehilla and because of some personal issue or misunderstanding, and they found an easier way out somewhere else that in the end took them away from Yiddishkeit.
I think the answer is 2 frum alternatives minimum, even if they’re run by the same kehilla or organization, in all but the smallest communities.
This woman was giving a Gemara Shiur, not Nach or Halacha.
1) Did other women want it?
2) Was she in-your-face about it?
She could have given it quietly at home, too. Every rov and/or shul board has the right to determine what goes on in the shul, but none to determine what goes on in homes (except if the rov is asked whether so-and-so’s kashrus is reliable or if chas vesholom there is abuse and the rov is the one who is notified).
I suspect there was an attitude problem.
51. Toi
What I do take offence to is your derogatory tone. Before commenting next time please reread what someone wrote.
“I just think that it doesn’t Passul the person.”
which means what exactly
Soliek: If they keep Shabbos and Kosher (really keep, with all of the Halachos) I wouldn’t call them Mumrim Lehachis or say that if they touch your wine it’s Stam Yeinam.
If they keep Shabbos and Kosher (really keep, with all of the Halachos) I wouldn’t call them Mumrim Lehachis or say that if they touch your wine it’s Stam Yeinam.
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If they touch my non-mevushal wine (not that I have any, serve any or give any as gifts except small bottles that I know a family will just enjoy by themselves, because of all the halachic issues), it is yayin pogum.
Well, many rabbonim would differ. My example of a frum Yid stuck in a con-servative shul is one thing. I’d still be leery of sharing non-mevushal wine with him until we spoke more, but it would come out very quickly that he is not a part of the movement.
Your examples are 2 malcontents who put their own feelings and desires ahead of halacha and/or community rules which have the force of halacha. They are 2 Chavas who now have their husbands and children eating from the eitz bli daas (or 2 Izevels who have their husbands worshipping a’z.)
If they keep Shabbos and Kosher (really keep, with all of the Halachos) I wouldn’t call them Mumrim Lehachis or say that if they touch your wine it’s Stam Yeinam.
To stick my two cents in, to whom do they ask shailos? A conservative temple leader, or a Rov? Also going to such a service in of itself is an issue. Would you say the same about a Jew who just happens to go to a Unitarian church?
Unfortunately there are some Orthodox Jews who have gone OTD and sadly done the same….This is in despite of years of Yeshiva Education and not being exposed to TV Movies etc…
mike: I am doubtful there is even a single case of an Orthodox Jew who was never exposed to TV or movies that c’v intermarried.
Would you say the same about a Jew who just happens to go to a Unitarian church?
Or a messianic jewish congregation. And suppose he doesn’t believe in yushke, he just likes that they let his wife say kaddish.
I think I’ve made my position clear. It stems from the fact that I have had the fortune (obviously misfortune in some of your eyes) of having met several Conservatives who are Shomer Halacha. That has shaped my opinion on this. I am not defending anything; I am just saying that some of the reactions here to them are extreme and are not what Halacha (though I will agree it is debatable) holds in this situation.
Unfortunately there are some Orthodox Jews who have gone OTD and sadly done the same….This is in despite of years of Yeshiva Education and not being exposed to TV Movies etc…
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The difference is that the frum parents care and are devastated by the loss. The con-servative parents will be very happy if the goy gets even a deformed or deconstructionist conversion and then pff…he’s a Jew after a year of courses in how to do tikkun olam and the importance of eco-kashrus.
I think I’ve made my position clear. It stems from the fact that I have had the fortune (obviously misfortune in some of your eyes) of having met several Conservatives who are Shomer Halacha.
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They APPEAR to be shomrei halacha. So do some mess-ianics. The question is – what do they BELIEVE? Wood alcohol appears the same as perfectly drinkable “96.” One is as good as the other for cleaning, too. Try drinking some wood alcohol and you’ll end up blind or dead.
The answer is NOT – vezois haTorah loi sehay muchlefes. It is also NOT Torah meSinai. If they believed this, they would not set foot in a tembel. Right there and then, they are violating halacha.
“he’s a Jew after a year of courses in how to do tikkun olam and the importance of eco-kashrus.”
Don’t know much about conservative, reform reconstructionist….but I don’t think you are far off….
Wood alcohol appears the same as perfectly drinkable “96.”
I once heard a joke about this. A old chassid who drinks only zektz und neintziker goes to the doctor for because he has a cough.
The doctor tells him he has “water on the lung.”
Chassid says, “Water? I knew it! It’s that feer percent!”
I once heard a joke about this. A old chassid who drinks only zektz und neintziker goes to the doctor for because he has a cough.
The doctor tells him he has “water on the lung.”
Chassid says, “Water? I knew it! It’s that feer percent!”
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A true story, although I think it was a joke that the old chossid told about himself. His name was Reb Meir Itkin AH and he lived in Crown Heights. He was a mesirus nefesh Yid who ran black market businesses during Communist times to keep frum Yidden clothed and fed and to provide funds for clandestine yeshivos. He consumed “96” to the exclusion of all other drinks back then, too. He passed away 4 years ago, and yes, he was 96.
I was once doing 96 shots at a simcha. All of a sudden, probably from eating too much fruit to keep hydrated, my face turned red and I was warned that I had too much. Instead, knowing what happened, I took a walk around the block and a few deep breaths, and came back perfectly OK. My line was: “That four percent water got me! It isn’t filtered!”
Yes, I did hear it as a true story; I didn’t want to represent it as such.
so far the biggest defense has been “oh but what about…what about…what about this case…”
what about indeed! i dint care how many yechidim you pull out of a hat. and by the way…if theyre shomer shabbos and kashrus…why are they conservative. again assuming that they really are shomer shabbos and kashrus k’halacha
as for your question i said they were mumarim lteavon but as for wine…yes i would have issues drinking non mevishal wine touched by a conservative jew because i wouldnt believe that hes shomer shabbos and kashrus
its kind of like: it is fine if your Rav says you can do it. (even if your rav is named debbie).
edited
M. 80: …
edited a bit
thoroughly edited
sorry
I looked up 411 and Debbie is a guy’s last name.
Actually, I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a guy’s first name as well somewhere, either.
When I was a kid, I remember being surprised when taking a state test that after completing one’s name, one had to check off the box for gender.
Couldn’t they tell from the name, I’d thought.
A nechitge tug.
edited
sorry
i think the moderator needs some self-moderating here
That must be a first.
“i think the moderator needs some self-moderating here”
Isn’t that a conflict of interest?
Perhaps we need checks and balances…
Whoa! My last post went through? Impressive!
The Conservative shul that I attend is the only one in the area that holds twice daily minyans every day of the year. There are many Orthodox worshippers who come there to say Kaddish as it is “the only game” in the neighborhood. Incidentally, when I say Orthodox, I suppose that I mean what the rest of you would refer to as MO, as where I live, aside from Chabad, there are no frum people. Most of those who attend our local Chabad are also not what most of you would refer to as frum. My city only has about 18,000 Jewish people and the bulk of them are Conservative, if they are even affiliated. Incidentally, the 4 cemeteries in town are owned by the 2 Conservative shuls and are used by all of Rabbis in the city.
“several Conservatives who are Shomer Halacha.”
They don’t exist; you mean that you met several conservatives who are culturally traditional, when they feel like it.
Shomer Halacha means that you are bound to the halachos of the Shulchan Aruch and mainstream Poskim; which is contrary to conservative belief and practice.
In this season of Tisheri, Instead of pointing fingers at anyone
How about invite one to your house for Shabbos..
I’m going to be in shul all day on Shabbos.
MG, r u in the crescentwood area? Maybe you should have a chat with Rabbi Shmuly Altein about starting a new minyan?
“How about invite one to your house for Shabbos..”
there are so many jokes im thinking of right now 😀
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