English Music

If, by “English,” you mean music by Britten, Purcell, or Elgar, I rather enjoy it.

If, by “English,” you mean music where the lyrics are not in Hebrew, Yiddish, French, Turkish, Latin, etc., I could listen to “Mama Rochel” all day long.

What exactly is bothering you, and could you please be specific about what you mean by “English” music?

Where are you- England? U.S.A.? It doesn’t bother me per se, no. If its inappropriate, that’s a different story, and I leave, but merely being in english, for me, doesn’t make it inappropriate, nor does it make me sick. As for a Jewish establishment, there’s only really a Shul, a Yeshiva, maybe a Mikveh, but after that a restaurant is just a restaurant, a barbershop a barbershop, etc. They might be in Jewish neighborhoods, owned by Jews, but their just private establishments.

“I’m so disgusted when they turn radio songs into jewish songs. “

Isn’t it better,though, that they have taken a secular piece and elevated it to something more meaningful? There is nothing intrinsically wrong with secular tunes. It’s the lyrics that sometimes make the tunes disgusting. The Maoz Tzur that most of us sing is a non-Jewish tune, isn’t it?

It don’t mean a thing

if it ain’t got that swing.

it bothers me in goyishe stores as well. As a rule whenever I shop in manhattan / dept. store I come home with a smashing headache caused by nauseating music.

it totally and completely disgusts me!!!

i get so upset when i walk into a jewish owned store or office and there is non-jewish music bouncing off the walls when choshuve people are inevitably going to pass through…

it doesn’t have to be someone choshuv, i was just trying to make a point…

also, playing music with female singers causes men to listen to kol isha!!

there is non-jewish music bouncing off the walls

Although this horse has been beaten long past the time it died, what is “non-Jewish” music? Music written by a non-Jew? What if a Jew is performing it? What if there are no words?

For example, I am part of a flute-piano duo. We are both frum. If we play Suite Modale by Ernest Bloch (a Jew), is that “Jewish music” or “non-Jewish music”?

haifagirl, what about songs with words that are by Jews? For example, there is a group called the Beastie Boys, who are all Jewish. There’s a heavy metal band called Disturbed whose singer/songwriter is a nice Jewish boy from Chicago – and his grandfather is a Rav!

Are those considered Jewish music? What about Simon & Garfunkel?

The essence of music is intrisically ruchniyus (many midroshim and meforshim discuss this–i.e. Mizmor L’Dovid, L’Dovid Mizmor etc.). It can help bring one to the heights of d’vaykus to HKB”H, or R”L the opposite. There are those neshomos that are particularly sensitive to music and it’s powers, and each individual should be aware of which kind of music has a positive or negative effect on them. That being said, I heard many years ago two interesting points in a shiur about music: 1)The music itself absorbs the intentions of the composer, and will in turn have an effect on the listener–(I wish I could remember sources quoted…..) 2)All positive ruchniyus/Jewish music was created at Ma’mad Har Sinai and was stored away to later be retrieved by the neshomos that would come into the world to bring them down and have the effect that HKB”H wants it to. Just some musical food for thought.

It would bother me if a Jewish/Frum establishment chose to play non-Jewish music–there is a choice, but since I’m not the owner/proprietor then I could just make a friendly suggestion.

You can tell my frustration at this thread. I can’t even type normally! That should have read:

Which leads me to believe I can put on a Mexican radio station and the poster would not have a problem with it!

(Mods: If you want to fix it, that would be great!)

you did a fine job yourself

So what you REALLY meant was SECULAR music, not ENGLISH. The way you stated it, a salsa CD would be acceptable. It’s not English; it’s not the radio. And those were the two critera you mentioned.

Thank you for clearing that up.

I think chesedname meant to say “goyishe music”

I was in France in a store i heard the radio playing a song [Goiysher words] that sounded familiar

i then realized it was Piamentas “Asher bara sason vsimcha chatan vkalla”

Thats called HORRIBLE

There is a school of thought that says that most American classics ARE Jewish music, written by first-generation American-Jewish songwriters, who borrowed heavily from the Jewish musical traditions of Eastern Europe, including sacred music. Quite a few were sons of cantors.

To quote Jerome Kern’s (a great American composer of popular songs, born in America of two immigrant parents) conclusion on Israel Isidor Beilin (changed his name to Irving Berlin, he was the son of a cantor): “”Irving Berlin has no place in American music – he is American music.”

And I can mame Jacob Gershowitz (George Gershwin, son of Jewish immigrants from Europe), Samuel Cohen (Sammy Cahn, ditto), Richard Rogers, Lorenz Hart, Oscar Hammerstein II, Stephen Sondheim, Harold Arlen (Chaim Arlook, son of a cantor), Kurt Weill (another son of a cantor).

These men alone are responsible for over 1/2 of the great American songs we regard as standards. Cole Porter, another of the great 20th century songwriters, regarded himself as the token goy on tinpan alley.

Then, of course, you can’t ignore the players and purveyors of that music, who wove the rhythm of Jewish Klezmer into American Jazz- Benny Goodman comes to mind – did you ever notice the resemblance between “The Grine Cuzine” and “My Country Cousin?”

I’ve always considered the bulk of American music to actually be Jewish music.

Thanks for the info, ronrsr. I should have known. But then again, one of the most famous winter holiday songs of the non-Jews was written by Irving Berlin.

Gershon Veroba makes no pretense of composing those songs.

Music is music. Melodies can be used to uplift the spirit or they can be used in degrading ways. Isn’t it far better to take a song and elevate it spiritually by infusing it with lyrics pertaining to chessed and Torah, when it might have started out as a beer hall drinking song?

A spectacularly example of uplifting “non-Jewish” music is “Va, pensiero”. It was written by the non-Jewish but philo-Semitic Italian opera composer Giuseppe Verdi. It expresses musically the composer’s feelings about what Jews in Babylon must have felt while in exile longing for their land. I find it as moving as Psalm 137.

“Music is music. Melodies can be used to uplift the spirit or they can be used in degrading ways. Isn’t it far better to take a song and elevate it spiritually”

I agree. With the exception of music from forbidden origins (such as Avodah Zara), some music is simply refined and uplifting, and some of music is degrading, as Oomis notes, or is the catalyst for lewd movements or less than spiritual atmosphere. A “Jewish” label on a cd is no “hechsher”, and some of our refined and uplifting tunes originate from less than stellar places.

Why dont they just play classical or jazz or something without words. pure tunes and then there wont be a real problem. The tunes are the same anyways. Let the goyim think its there songs, and us ours. I personally have something against some of the modern “jewish” (purposely in quotes) songs. They sometimes sound more goyish than what we could hear on the radio! THOSE tunes give me headaches!

The only classical composer who comes to mind, whose music I avoid, is Wagner.

charliehall, I have to say that I am very surprised to hear that for a number of reasons. I have seen many operas, and I worked for an opera company for many years after (secular) college. Did the Rav take into consideration the subject matter of the opera? Many opera plots glorify situations and relationships that are just not kosher by any standard. I didn’t start caring about that until the BT bug set in.

I have seen Nabucco, but Turandot is actually my favorite opera. Talk about a shidduch crisis, LOL. Rigoletto is another I always have loved the music to, but if my kids were to ask for the English translation of the Italian, there’s no way I would tell them!

To be honest, I am shocked that YU has been having opera fundraisers. I am female so kol isha isn’t an issue, but I am just sensitive, I guess.

Oomis, I agree on Wagner. Some people can separate the man from his music, but I can’t.

oomis – Yes, it is! “None shall sleep”… (until he finds out the name of the Ice Princess)

Also the source of the first table tennis reference in opera (Ping, Pong and Pang, the comic/tragic ministers) 🙂

(One of the great ironies of opera is Chinese characters singing in Italian, not that Italians would have understood Chinese)

During these non-Jewish holidays (if not ALL the time), it would be so smart of the Jewish store owners to play CDs, rather than their radios. There is no secular station that plays strictly non-sectarian music. I listen to talk radio. Much less problematic.

Now it may be that in some stores, there is a wider demographic. Maybe not all the customers are Jewish. Still, mamesh non-Jewish holiday music should not be heard in those places.

ok. leitzonus aside, jewish music…(and by that, for all you idiots out there…i mean shwekeyish and your standard mainstream frum composers…) with english words is perfectly fine. plain music…be it from a jewish or non jewish composer…essentially has nothing wrong with it. as an extention of that, there is nothing wrong with taking a non jewish song and amking it jewish by changing the theme and lyrics. many old time niggunim are written originally written by non jews.

when it comes to non jewish music with words, the story changes. MANY (not all) non jewish songs these days are atrocious, with such sexually explicit lyrics, that would they be turned into a movie, they would be rated XXX. therefore in GENERAL (please note…in GENERAL) they are all assur. that being said, just because a non jew writes a song, and its lyrics…does NOT make it assur! take Guns N’ Roses – Cats In The Cradle for example. the lesson in that song is applicable to everyone, jews and non jews alike. there are no sexual references in that song at all. it is a song that tells fathers to spend more time with their sons. is there anything wrong with that?

now that that is established…back to the subject at hand. a jew should NOT be playing non jewish music with lyrics in his place of business. there is no reason for it, but if he IS, before judging, listen to the lyrics before making your objections. it may be a completely acceptable song.

when it comes to non jews. a jew walking into the place of business of a non jew, has no right to complain about the music, unless it is generally offensive (i.e…it has explicit sexuality in the song) it is their business, and if you dont like it, walk out. there is a story (i think it was about rav moshe…) he got into a cab, and the driver was playing non jewish music on his radio. the talmid that was with him was about to ask the driver to turn it off, when his rebbi stopped him. the basic idea was…this is what he does…he drives around in this car all day…who are we to deprive him of this simple pleasure.

like someone said above (forgive me for not quoting you directly) if you feel so strongly about it, then get an ipod, and listen to that.

on the subject of christmas carols. many of them don’t even reference christmas at all! i see no reason why anyone would find them offensive at all! for example…”jungle bells” just talks about a sleigh ride…whats wrong with that? or “let it snow” is a song about how cold it is outside! whats wrong with that? i am not advocating playing that in your house…but honestly, what is there to get so worked up about?

as for songs that directly reference christmas…if you are sooooooooooo offended by that…than get an ipod.

merry chanukah ;D;D;D

Guns ‘N Roses? Don’t know about that. “Cat’s In the Cradle” was a #1 hit for Harry Chapin. – Moderator 77