May 24, 2012 6:00 am at 6:00 am #878263
APY – As a person whose parents spoke Ladino but did not pass it down to their children, I highly doubt what you say about Ladino being mamma loshen for anybody younger than the age of 75. Most Sephardim speak the language of the country to which they migrated after the Inquisition – Farsi is much more common than Ladino and I don’t even know if they remember it in the Arab countries. You will also have French, Spanish, and Arabic spoken in Sephardic homes but very little Ladino any more.
147 – “Torah HaKedosho” was written in Loshon HaKodesh. This is NOT the same as Hebrew, which was written by Ben Yehuda.May 24, 2012 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #878264
Nechoma, give us a break with the anti-Zionist propaganda! How much is 2+2?11, maybe?May 24, 2012 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #878265
Nechomah, Thank you for that accurate definition about Ivrit.May 24, 2012 2:19 pm at 2:19 pm #878266
Nechomah: Modern Hebrew is still very, very close to Lashon Hakodesh. Besides, it’s seemingly a Machlokes (Abudraham and P’nei Yehosua against the Nodah Bihudah) as to whether the natural development of the Hebrew language stays Lashon Hakodesh or whether only Biblical Hebrew was Lashon Hakodesh, even in the times of the Gemara.May 24, 2012 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #878267
An event for ALL klal yisroel should be geared to ALL klal yisroel even if they are 75 years old. Which is besides the point altogether.
By your (and others) take on things, the event should have been in aramaic, since all sectors learn shas and it is by far the most common understood language.
As I said, this has nothing to do with demographics and everything to do with those behind the event, especially the money behind it. We all know the golden rule. He who has the gold, makes the rules.
Fpor those who don’t get it. Organizers and those who are for it, are two different things.May 24, 2012 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #878268
Sam, what the apikorus Ben-Yehuda put into Ivrit, is a very far cry from any natural growth.May 24, 2012 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #878269OneOfManyParticipant
You know, it’s the little clues like these that give you away. You might want to look to that.May 25, 2012 6:59 am at 6:59 am #878270Ken ZaynMember
There is little reason this “language” of Yiddish exists, other than for historical purposes
I thought the main reason was so parents could have a secret language in front of the kids! (Does not apply in Williamsburg…)May 25, 2012 8:39 am at 8:39 am #878271
Naysberg, in case you haven’t noticed Ben-Yehuda (who may have done teshuva on his last day, but that is another post) has been dead for 90 years. In that time Hebrew has developed.May 25, 2012 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #878272
Naysberg: I have made that Ta’ana myself because it has several Halachic Nafka Minos. Still, to restart a dead language isn’t easy. I don’t think he left the Biblical Hebrew L’hachis. He just did what he felt would make it spoken again. Even in the times of the Tannaim those that spoke did not speak Biblical Hebrew. Languages develop. It does happen.May 29, 2012 4:25 am at 4:25 am #878273147Participant
Yiddish may be dead, but B’H Ivrit is alive & well, and may every Jew be Zoche to master fluent Ivrit, and hence good access to numerous Seforim including Torah & Siddur,May 29, 2012 4:35 am at 4:35 am #878274
Torah is in Loshon Kodesh, which is a different language than Ivrit.May 29, 2012 4:35 am at 4:35 am #878275
Sam2, Biblical Hebrew ceased with the end of the Biblical period. Mishnaic Hebrew is somwhat different – thus Chazal speak of “lashon Mikra” and “lashon chachamim”. As with every living language Hebrew evolved during both the Biblical and Mishnaic periods and is continuing to evolve.May 29, 2012 6:45 am at 6:45 am #878276
yekke2 -“Why is it Jewish?”
Even though the origins are many languages -it is only spoken by Jews.
Ivrit is Not Loshon Hakodesh. They don’t even pronounce the words the same. Many Non-Jews speak Ivrit. Being similar to Loshon Hakodesh doesn’t make it a Jewish language.
So some people feel they have to apologize when they aren’t speaking the Jewish language to Jews.
The reason some speakers spoke English by the Asifa is that they realize not e/o understands Yiddish -so they didn’t want those participants to feel left out.May 29, 2012 9:27 am at 9:27 am #878277
So if a Jew is Sephardic and Yiddish is NOT their language,
Ladino is really a dead language, what do they speakMay 29, 2012 12:14 pm at 12:14 pm #878278
Right, Health, a dialect of German is a Jewish language, but a dialect of Loshon Kodesh is not? How ridiculuos is that!?!May 29, 2012 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #878279
ZD – Like I said above, I come across many Sephardic Jews and have found that it really depends on which country they migrated to. Those that come from Spain or South America speak primarily Spanish or possibly Portuguese. Those from France or Algiers speak French. The ones that migrated to Iran or other Arab countries speak Farsi or even Arabic. Many who have come to EY over the generations now speak primarily Ivrit. There is no one unifying language for Sephardim as there was before the Inquisition.May 29, 2012 3:32 pm at 3:32 pm #878280
A Sefer Torah written by a kofer must be burnt. Ben-Yehuda (and his successors) is a kofer.May 29, 2012 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #878281
Nechomah: What Sefardim have come from Spain in the last 500 years?May 29, 2012 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #878282
I have found among the Sephardim I have met in the US, Paris (France) and Israel generally speak Hebrew and another laguage (Usually Spanish French , Arabic , Farsi or EnglishMay 29, 2012 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #878284uneeqParticipant
I don’t think that Ivrit is the Lashon Hakodesh, because many of the invented words are the exact opposite of Kodesh. However, I do believe that it still takes precedence over other languages being that is a modern spinoff of Lashon HaKodesh and no other language can boast that. There is also nothing less inspiring than watching a fresh ba’al tshuva guiding himself through halacha and mussar seforim with ease without the language barrier. While in other places, even many (though not most) Yeshiva trained men can barely grasp whats going on in those seforim.May 29, 2012 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #878285147Participant
Ivrit & Loshon haKodesh are just as much the same languauge, as American & British are essentially the same language, as is Spanish & latin Amrerican Spanish, and as is Dutch & Flemish.May 29, 2012 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #878286Josh31Participant
Hebrew is the unifying language between Ashkenazim and Sephardim. My best understanding is that the the vast majority of Charedei Torah teaching in Israel (or Eretz Yisroel) is in Hebrew.May 29, 2012 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #878287
147, yasher koach for saying it like it is!May 29, 2012 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #878288oomisParticipant
Any word in Ivrit that is not “kodesh” comes from Arabic or some other language.May 29, 2012 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #878289oomisParticipant
Yiddish has some not so nice words also, and I will not enumerate them.May 29, 2012 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #878290lesschumrasParticipant
Ironically, Yiddish was a language born of Haifa and arrogance, not of kodesh.
There is a good reason that it is based upon midieval German. In the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries German Jewry was suffering persecution and many responded to the offer of the Polish kings to move to Poland. At that time Poland ruled the Ukraine and what is now western Russia and the Polish kings saw the Jews as an instant mercantile class. However, being Germans, the Jews refused to speak the what they viewed as thecrude Slavic language of the poles and continued speaking their midieval German which evolved into YiddishMay 29, 2012 11:54 pm at 11:54 pm #878291
There is a Worms Machzor published in 1272, that still exists, that is in Yiddish. So the language is older than that.May 30, 2012 2:38 am at 2:38 am #878292lesschumrasParticipant
Chulent, Worms is in Germany. All Germans spoke midieval German . How do you explain Polish Jews speaking German ? Until the movement of Jews to Poland our primary language was always the language of the host country. If the Jews who moved to Poland had adopted Polish, there would be no Yiddish. Ironically, centuries later the Jews who remained in Germany looked down upon their Polish cousinsMay 30, 2012 4:24 am at 4:24 am #878293
mdd -“Right, Health, a dialect of German is a Jewish language, but a dialect of Loshon Kodesh is not? How ridiculuos is that!?!”
Your perception is wrong.
From the dictionary:
“Dialect – 1. regional variety of language: a regional variety of a language, with differences in vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation
2. language spoken by class or profession: a form of a language spoken by members of a particular social class or profession
3. nonstandard speech: nonstandard spoken language
4. member of language family: one of a family of related languages – Romance dialects such as French and Italian”
Yiddish would not be considered a dialect because it has a different Alfa -Bet. So it’s a new language – a Jewish one.
Even though Ivrit would fall into #4 -it still is a new language, just like French and Italian are two different languages. So it might be in the same family as Loshon Kodesh, but it is its’ own language. The biggest proof that they made a new language, is because they changed a lot of pronuciation. Why? Because they didn’t want to speak the language that Jews always spoke.May 30, 2012 7:54 am at 7:54 am #878294tahiniMember
Ashkenazi Jews did and do speak yiddish, Sephardim, did not, are they not to be included and shown some respect?
I am married to a sephardi with ancestry from all over the middle east, and they all speak perfect Hebrew. There is indeed a type of Judeo arabic which is used among certain groups as well as a tendency to use the language of the host country, be it Farsi, Arabic or French. Many biblical Hebrew scholars note that the Yemenite pronunciation of Ivrit is most authentic and closest to the way our forefathers spoke.
Yiddish is a beautiful language precious and spoken by many Jews, but not all!!! yes there are many sephardi especially from Jerusalem who speak great Yiddish, but how about some kavod when talking about Yiddish and realising not all Jews are Ashkenazi and shock horror the shtetels of Eastern Europe have been tragically long gone! Those with any sentiment for the old lands where Yiddish flourished should remember their delightful gentile neigbours who in the absence of Jews still loving cherish their antisemitism to this very day.May 30, 2012 12:28 pm at 12:28 pm #878295
Health, this is crazy. Yiddish is German because of #1,#2 and #3. Ivrit is a current version of Biblical Hebrew. They use Sefardi havara. Ivrit is by far more similar to Biblical ( and kol she’ken Mishnaic) Hebrew than medieval French to modern French, or medieval English to the modern one. Stop repeating the propaganda.May 30, 2012 12:32 pm at 12:32 pm #878296
Health, so if someone decides to start writing English using Hebrew script, but otherwise leave everything the same, it is going to be a new language? Ridiculous!May 30, 2012 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #878297
Chulent – are there are no Jews living in Spain anymore?May 30, 2012 3:12 pm at 3:12 pm #878298
There are 12,000 Jews Living in Spain today, Most are from MorroccoMay 30, 2012 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #878299
Nechamah: From 1492 until approximately 1900 it was illegal for any Jew to live in Spain.May 30, 2012 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #878300
Health: What pronunciation did they change? Are you referring to S’fardi Havara?May 30, 2012 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #878301on the ballParticipant
‘Enough with the Yiddish already’
Surely you mean ‘Enough OF the Yiddish already’?
Unless you were translating literally from another language where this grammar is correct.
Yiddish springs to mind.May 30, 2012 5:15 pm at 5:15 pm #878302
mdd -“Health, so if someone decides to start writing English using Hebrew script, but otherwise leave everything the same, it is going to be a new language? Ridiculous!”
First of all, Yiddish is Not just German with the Aleph -Bais. There are many differences.
Second of all, you said dialect. It can only be a dialect if it fits into one of the four definitions. Since it doesn’t have the same Alpha -Bet, it is a different language. This language might have come as an offshoot of German, but it isn’t German -it’s the only Jewish language right now. How come you think you are smarter than Gedolim for the last umteen years? They chose to speak in Yiddish over the languages of the countries where they resided in, this includes Ivrit, when they lived in EY. You don’t think they could learn a new language, esp. Ivrit which comes from Loshon Kodesh? The reason is because it’s (Yiddish) the Jewish language.
So stop with Yiddish is nothing more than German already.May 30, 2012 5:24 pm at 5:24 pm #878303
Health, according to #1 Yiddish is a dialect. Having a different alphabet does not make a difference. The Serbs and Croats use different alphabets but Serbo-Croatian is one language.
On the ball, how about “down with Yiddish”?May 30, 2012 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #878304
Sam2 -“Health: What pronunciation did they change? Are you referring to S’fardi Havara?”
Don’t you think it’s strange for s/o who isn’t Sefardi to make up a language based on their Havara? The reason why he did it because he didn’t want the New language (Ivrit) to have anything to do with the old (LK). The same reason he made up words that wasn’t needed -like Shairootim for Bais Hakeesay. This might not be a good example because Shairootim might be slang, not original Ivrit. So here is another example -Dayog -Fisherman. The way to say this in LK is probably Odom Sheoichaiz Dagim (Bemetzoida).
He created new words for his new language. Yes, it’s based on LK, but it’s a new language and it has No Kedusha. It’s probably better to speak English than Ivrit. At least English wasn’t created by a Koifer!May 30, 2012 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #878305TheBigJMember
I don’t speak Yiddish, but intend to learn it as soon as I get very good with Hebrew, for which I’m working at an advanced level. I love the fact that Yiddish is still widely used and is increasing. And don’t write off Ladino. There is a revival of it taking place, with many youngsters of Sephardi origin learning it from their grandparents.May 30, 2012 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #878306
Health, if you want to hold that 2+2=5, you are welcome to do it. No matter what we say to you, you won’t agree. If it advances the cause of anti-Zionism to say that we all live on the Moon, you won’t have a problem with it.May 30, 2012 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #878307MDGParticipant
Not even those lived in the time of the Bible used biblical Hebrew.
One of main differences of Torah Hebrew and the Hebrew of Kutuvim is the style of language (I read that in a sefer, but can’t recall the source). Look at Megillat Ester, for example. It’s Hebrew is much closer to modern Hebrew than the Torah is to Modern Hebrew. The language of Hashem’s Torah is unique. The Hebrew of the Neviim is also unique, but Ketuvim was often written in the vernacular.May 30, 2012 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #878308MDGParticipant
“he made up words that wasn’t needed…. So here is another example -Dayog -Fisherman. The way to say this in LK is probably Odom Sheoichaiz Dagim (Bemetzoida).”
First of all it should read “he made up words that weren’t needed”
Second of all, all languages evolve and new words are created. Did you ever wear a “tallis”? Did you know that the word “tallis” does not appear in Tanakh. According to your savara, one can’t say tallis (or tallit); one has to say beged im tzitzis al hakanfos OR something cumbersome like that.
“The same reason he made up words that wasn’t needed -like Shairootim for Bais Hakeesay. “
Shairootim means servicies, or as I would translate it in this case “facilities”. You might say to someone in English, “I need to to use the facilities.” It’s just another way to refer to the “Bais Hakeesay”May 30, 2012 9:41 pm at 9:41 pm #878309
Now we have a bunch of expert linguists who learned everything they know about language, old and new, from their good friends at google and wikipedia who for the most part probably never heard a word of yiddish in their life. Which brings us back to this thread and the question why an Asifa addressing the use of the web, whose content in english is far greater than its yiddish content, resulting in a requirement of at least a passable command of the english language, was given over in yiddish, especially when a good percentage of those in attendance don’t speak any yiddish.
Speaking of yiddish, don’t rely just yet on the folks from google to translate anything from english into yiddish, the folks at google might want to hire a few yiddish speakers first. “Hello” translates as “a gut yur” and “aunt” as momma.May 30, 2012 9:57 pm at 9:57 pm #878310
“The same reason he made up words that wasn’t needed”
Like those ancient authentic yiddish words “kuzin” and “kuzinish” to describe male and female cousins (at least according to those “expert” at google).May 30, 2012 10:20 pm at 10:20 pm #878311
APY: Google Translate translated “Hello” as “Shalom Aleichem”, “Aunt” as “Tante” and “cousin” as “shvester kind”.
All correctly.May 30, 2012 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #878312ItcheSrulikMember
Naysberg: The only people I hear bashing modern Hebrew as much as you do are secular scholars and anti-zionists. At least one group has some understanding of the differences.May 31, 2012 12:27 am at 12:27 am #878313lakewhutParticipant
traditionally, Ivrit is from ladhon hakdesh with some aramaic. At least it’s a semetic language, while Yiddish is not.
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