June 4, 2012 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #878367HealthParticipant
Sam -“However, as I mentioned above, it is seemingly a Machlokes between the Nodah Bihudah and the Sefer Abudraham as to whether or not Lashon Hakodesh can change based on how people speak”
Where’s the Mekor? Tell me where the Pnei Yeshua is also -I’d like to look it up.June 5, 2012 12:23 am at 12:23 am #878368Sam2Participant
Health: I don’t know off the top of my head. I do know that Rav Schachter quoted a Noda Bihudah that attacks the whole premise of the Sefer Abudraham. Part of his Ta’ana was that Davening isn’t in an inherent Lashon Hakodesh because it’s not in Biblical Hebrew. The Abudraham would say back that since it was the spoken Hebrew of the time of Chazal it counts as Lashon Hakodesh.June 5, 2012 12:54 am at 12:54 am #878369pcozMember
igros moshe orach chaim 8 (i think) says that any version of lashon hakodesh spoken by a significant element of klal yisroel has a din of lashon hakodeshJune 5, 2012 1:56 am at 1:56 am #878370Sam2Participant
Pcoz: Do you mean OC 5? There is no OC 8, but OC 5 is in volume 8.June 5, 2012 2:30 am at 2:30 am #878371TomcheMember
The Radak (Sefer HaMichlol, introduction) writes that Loshon HaKodesh is all but forgotten to us, and all we have left is what is in Tanach.
The Chasam Sofer notes that while Chazal used many words and phrases borrowed from the Greeks and Romans, they never coined a new word, as has been done in modern Hebrew, for in their holy opinion it was preferable to use other languages rather than create even a single new word that did not have its like, its example, in the Torah, since it could not be rooted in sanctity.
The Chasam Sofer EH 2:11 says that in ancient times Jews used to use a modified version of the non-Jewish languages for everyday (divrei chol) talk, similar to what Yiddish is.
The Chasam Sofer writes that the reason Jews do not speak Loshon Hakodesh as a speaking language is because it is inappropriate to use a holy language while enveloped in Tumah, which is our current status. The Rambam writes that a love song in Hebrew is more repulsive to Hashem than the same song in Arabic, for instance, because the pollution of the Holy language is an additional crime. If someone wants to store pornography in his house, thats bad enough. But to store it in the Aron HaKodesh is unspeakably worse. So to cause Loshon HaKodesh to be used as a street language, complete with all the disgusting ways it is used today in Israel, is just more of a reason why we should make sure it never gets into the streets. For our Creator to look down at the world and see His holy language – or even elements of it – used in magazines such as are sold in Kiosks on Yaffo or Dizengoff Street, or spoken by the lowest of the low trying to make a sale, is not something that he or we are happy about.
The Kuzari writes that Avrohom Avinu, therefore, spoke 2 different languages. One for holy speech – that was Loshon HaKodesh, and the other for mundane speech – that, the Kuzari says was some non-Jewish language that Avrohom Avinu took and changed around a little on his own. And thats the idea behind Yiddish. It is a non-Jewish language that we took and twisted a bit in order to make it exclusive among us.June 5, 2012 1:49 pm at 1:49 pm #878372mddMember
So, Tomche, I guess ” universita” and “otobus” should be o.k.? How is it different from Chazal practice?June 5, 2012 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #878373mddMember
Gemora laments the use of Aramaic and says Hebrew should have been used (end of Sotah and in B.K.)!June 6, 2012 4:27 am at 4:27 am #878374HealthParticipant
Tomche -“So to cause Loshon HaKodesh to be used as a street language, complete with all the disgusting ways it is used today in Israel, is just more of a reason why we should make sure it never gets into the streets.”
You’re basically saying like Sam that LK can exist in Ivrit, but you’re saying it’s Ossur to use it. I disagree; even if you say LK can exist nowadays in modern form -you can speak Ivrit. Because I hold Ivrit is Not LK and it’s a new language that was made up. (It’s not even a Jewish language.) They have a different pronuciation than LK amongst other reasons. If it would be LK because LK can be spoken in modern form -then speaking Ivrit would be Ossur. Many Choshuv Jews have spoken and speak Ivrit.
What your saying about Yiddish is true. Klal Yisroel did this throughout the ages. The Medrash says Hashem said Anochi in the first commandment of the Aseres Hadibros so Klal Yisroel could understand. The Jews at that time didn’t speak Hebrew. They spoke a dialect of Egyptian. “Anochi” was part of this language. Acc. to this Medrash that’s what it means Shelo Sheeno Es Loshonom.
They didn’t want to speak Egyptian like the Mitzreeyim so they spoke this dialect – which they (the Jews) only spoke.
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